McPissed at the McCargo McScrewjob

by BigBlueShoe on Oct 16, 2008 7:55 AM EDT in Colts News Comment 41 comments

Yeah, pretty much in the span of just 24 hours, most of us went from Hell Yeah! to WTF? As shake n bake posted last night, John McCargo NOT a Colt. He failed his physical because he had a herniated disc. Trade voided. He is now back with Buffalo. Nobody has a clue when this injury occurred. We don't know if Buffalo tried to pull a fast one on Indy, and nothing against Brian and other Bills fans, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did try to swindle Indy out of a draft pick. In any case, trades between Buffalo and Indy will not happen again for a long while. It is hard to trust a team again when they trade you damaged goods.

So, what now?

The herniated disc will likely land McCargo on IR. So, any hope of Buffalo cutting him and Indy picking him up is about nil. The only NT the Colts have on the roster now is Daniel Muir. They may re-sign LaJuan Ramsey, or look for someone else (former Kent State DT Colin Ferrel?).

In any case, the DT situation has been as close to a nightmare this season as it can get. Pitcock, Ed, McCargo... just one big friggin' mess. Can't fault Bill Polian for trying. He has done everything humanly possible to make the NT position strong. Unfortunately, the people he got just were not good enough mentally or physically. Now the Colts have to suck it up and move on. They played well last week without a player like McCargo. Maybe it can continue.

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I wouldn’t be surprised if they did try to swindle Indy out of a draft pick.

As I said here before, Shoe – McCargo hasn’t missed a single practice all season. The Bills didn’t know he was hurt, man. He’s played in every game but the season opener this season, and they sat him because he wasn’t busting his butt in practice.

I realize the disappointment, but the “Bills tried to pull a fast one on Indy” stuff is baseless. They wanted to trade a guy that wasn’t busting tail for the team; I assure you that the Bills’ front office is every bit as frustrated with this surprise injury as y’all are.

by Brian Galliford on Oct 16, 2008 8:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

You might be right, Brian, but the fact is Buffalo does not look like they are on the level now. If I trade you my used car, it would behoove me to have it inspected first BEFORE trading it to you. If not, I could trade you a piece of junk, and after you find out I just traded you a piece of junk, chances are you will not fully trust me with such transactions again, despite my intentions.

Bottom line, Buffalo should have checked this guy out before trading him. The perception, right or wrong, is that they tried to send a damaged player to Indy. This is why it helps to do your homework before shipping a player.

Sloppy management by Buffalo.

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by BigBlueShoe on Oct 16, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think that’s how it works, Shoe. If I’m trading for your used car, I want to check it out MYSELF. I don’t care what you’ve had to say about the car… I want to see it myself. I’m not going to rely on your word; if I did, I’d be pretty unrealistically trusting. Flip it around – if I’m trading you my used car and it’s been humming along fine, is there a good reason for me to have it inspected? Especially if I know you’ll be inspecting it yourself? These trade reversal deals, where player/pick flip-flop after the failed physical, exist for precisely this reason.

Things work the opposite way you described them. Indy checked him out because they had good reason to. Things didn’t go according to plan for your team or mine. It happens.

Maybe you’re right that the Colts won’t trust Buffalo in the rare event they talk trade in the future. I don’t see it. These two franchises have a civil history together, especially considering the Polian-Levy’s disciples ties. I sincerely doubt there are hard feelings, but I’m positive there’s disappointment on both sides.

In short: there wasn’t “sloppy management” on either side of the coin in this fiasco. You can blame the Bills all you want, but I think it’s unrealistic to expect a team to kick the tires on one of their own guys when they’ve watched him practice and play for 3 straight months without hindrance.

by Brian Galliford on Oct 16, 2008 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Again, maybe

But to avoid any potential embarrassment (like what Buffalo just experienced), it would have been wise to check him out before shipping him.

And again, just to make this clear, if McCargo had a herniated disc weeks or months prior to this trade, that is a strong indictment of Buffalos “practices.” You do not hide a herniated disc. It hurts like crazy. You have trouble WALKING, let alone playing football.

It is my theory that this happened fairly recently. If not, it makes Buffalo look even more incompetent. It is certainly not unrealistic to expect a team to know if they are trading a healthy player or not. This risk of embarrassment is too great, as we all can see.

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by BigBlueShoe on Oct 16, 2008 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You do not hide a herniated disc. It hurts like crazy. You have trouble WALKING, let alone playing football.

That’s true, but ONLY IF the disc is pressing on a nerve. If it isn’t, the symptoms may be a dull lower back ache or no symptoms at all. It happens all the time. The injury only becomes apparent when the disc is pressing on a nerve. And again, as McCargo has been practicing and playing right along, it seems completely logical that he was unaware of the injury that he and the team were supposedly “hiding”. If McCargo had been in the serious pain you describe, Buffalo’s award-winning medical staff would have taken a look, and to claim otherwise is, again, baseless.

As far as “risking embarrassment” goes, yeah, the Bills are probably a little distressed. But to say that this reflects poorly on their management or, more importantly, their medical staff – you know, the guys who saved Kevin Everett’s ability to walk – is a touch absurd.

by Brian Galliford on Oct 16, 2008 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Medical staff

No one here is taking shots at Buffalo’s medical staff. The shots are at Buffalo’s management, who just tried to trade an injured player to Indy for a draft pick. It seems like nothing was done to see if McCargo was healthy. That was sloppy. Intentions and all that are meaningless. Do your due diligence to be 100% certain you are not trading a damaged player to another team. Otherwise, people will question your truthfulness if you do.

Simple as that.

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by BigBlueShoe on Oct 16, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do your due diligence to be 100% certain you are not trading a damaged player to another team.

Again, that’s NOT how it works. Case in point: Marcus Stroud. Everyone who pays the slightest bit of attention knew that Stroud was coming off of some serious ankle injuries. The Bills traded for him anyway. Should the Jaguars have given Stroud a physical and said “Not sure if you’ve heard, but Marcus has bum ankles. You probably shouldn’t do this.” The Bills are responsible for making the final decision. I assure you that had Stroud failed his Bills physical, he’d have gone back to J-ville and nothing would have been said against either team.

Again – the trade retractions exist for this reason. Every single NFL trade goes down exactly the way this one did. Team trades player, receiving team performs physical. To expect something different, ESPECIALLY when there was no reason for the Bills to believe that McCargo was injured in the first place, is bizarre. There’s no blame to be passed here, in my opinion, because these things happen.

by Brian Galliford on Oct 16, 2008 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

but you have just negated your own point

you say everyone knew about strouds injury.. so this is NOT the same situation. The bills knew they were trading for possible damaged goods and were aware there might be problems. This is totally different from this trade where there was no history to make anyone suspect there was something wrong with the player in question.

Who even knows how recent the injury is? If players have a physical when they report to training camp this would have shown up.. Obviously this is more recent OR the bills were allowing and injured player on the field. I seriously doubt most NFL teams would allow an injured player to practice must less which implies it was recent, and a ‘sore back’ may just not come up as anything serious yet.

Although I don’t agree with the first part of the post, I agree this is why the physical is necessary. They may have checked him out a couple of weeks ago thinking he was on the trade block and the injury happened in practice or game day… just before the trade.

An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing...

by bluegirl on Oct 16, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

McCargo has been on the trade block since right after Week 1, basically. So your theory that the Bills checked him out at some point since then is plausible.

Weirdest thing yet: McCargo is practicing today. Now, if you want to question something, have a field day with that. :)

by Brian Galliford on Oct 16, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's weird

…guess it can’t be that serious if he is practicing… but maybe the colts don’t want to take any risks given the problems we have had at DT.

That being said, in ANY physical you could probably find something to negate a trade if you really wanted to given the level of abuse these players bodies take..

An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing...

by bluegirl on Oct 16, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is totally different from this trade where there was no history to make anyone suspect there was something wrong with the player in question.

Yes, the circumstances of the injury being publicly aware were different, but the point I was trying to make isn’t: it’s the receiving team’s responsibility to make sure they’re getting a healthy guy, not the dealing team’s. That’s ultimately what I was going for, and it’s exactly what happened in this and every other trade you see in the NFL.

by Brian Galliford on Oct 16, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

they did screw the colts though

Even if it wasn’t intentional, the bills have screwed us though. If the injury to McCargo had been known we might have pursued a different trade. With the deadline now passed this option is closed to us. The bills may have been trying to make the trade in good faith, but the fact they didn’t know the player was injured does look bad and it does hurt the colts.

This is probably why there is so much venting on this site right now. It seemed like a good trade for both, but the Bills have now screwed the colts out of any other trades as well…

An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing...

by bluegirl on Oct 16, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly.

The door is closed now. AND we released Ramsey to add McCargo…hopefully someone didn’t snatch him up. ugh.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 16, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It seemed like a good trade for both, but the Bills have now screwed the colts out of any other trades as well…

Really? As I mentioned earlier, McCargo’s been on the trading block since Week 1. Teams had a month and a half to make a move. I’d say the trade deadline screwed the Colts.

by Brian Galliford on Oct 16, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I doubt the Bills screwed the Colts...

I think, its more the Colts screwed the Colts, if he has been on the trading block since week 1. There is something very strange going on…I’m befuddled by all of the news today.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 16, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ha, yeah, join the club. Crazy.

by Brian Galliford on Oct 16, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's off the Colts.com roster

his spot has yet to be filled.

I'm still here in the flesh
Twenty-one year old legend
I'ma live way after my death
-Lil' Wayne "Get Down"

by shake n bake on Oct 16, 2008 9:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree w/ Brian. Gamesmenship aside, now that Buffalo has retained McCargo’s rights, there is no way this looks good for them. That had to be a thought if there were trying to deal damaged goods and based on the comments from some of the people in charge of the Bills, I really don’t think they knew. Unless, the whole league feels that the Colts med staff is inept and not just colts fans.

by borninblue on Oct 16, 2008 9:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

We probably re-sign Ramsey

If only there was someone better in free agency.

This is the type of flaw that costs teams Super Bowls. The Colts have pulled some things out of their hats, but this is very worrysome.

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by MrNFL on Oct 16, 2008 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Is

Ed Johnson still available? lol, I doubt the Colts re-sign him, but maybe he learned his lesson after getting cut and no one re-signing him.

by yellowsnow on Oct 16, 2008 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

even if they did

Wouldn’t he be facing a suspension, so we wouldn’t have him for at least 4 weeks anyways.. the problem needs to be addressed before that..

An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing...

by bluegirl on Oct 16, 2008 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure that he'd be suspended

doesn’t it take more than one positive test to get suspended for 4 weeks? I’m thinking that the first one is kept private and that a 2nd or a 3rd perhaps triggers the 4 game suspension. Also, he did not test positive for anything. He could get suspended for being in legal trouble by Goodell but after essentially getting suspended up until now, I don’t know that more punishment would be forthcoming.

Unfortunately, it’s all a moot point as the Colts are extremely unlikely to bring him back

by psvirsky on Oct 16, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

From Memory, with no link

The 1st and 2nd positive tests are not reported publicly, so no suspension.

The 3rd positive test triggers a 4 game suspension.

The 4th positive test triggers a full year suspension.

This could have been a 3rd positive test, and we won’t know until Johnson signs on with another team. Then we’ll know only if he is suspended.

by mgrex03 on Oct 16, 2008 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

but it was an arrest not a positive test

that changes it doesn’t it?

I'm still here in the flesh
Twenty-one year old legend
I'ma live way after my death
-Lil' Wayne "Get Down"

by shake n bake on Oct 16, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It might, although I'm guessing it will count as one

I also believe failing to take a test is also considered a positive test, which is why it might count the same.

Sticky Ricky never “failed” a 4th test. He just never showed up, and he was suspended for the year.

by mgrex03 on Oct 16, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

suspended for legal trouble

I was thinking more Goodell would suspend him for the legal issue of getting caught with pot.. not the positive test. – 4 games seem to be the standard for something like that…

An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing...

by bluegirl on Oct 16, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For a first time offender, it isn't nearly that harsh

Take Matt Jones for example. While he still may be suspended, he hasn’t been yet, and he was arrested for possession of cocaine.

Goodell will do what he sees fit.

by mgrex03 on Oct 16, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Isn't Goodell

awaiting the outcome of a trial / plea agreement. It appears as though he’s using the “innocent until proven guilty” thing. lol!

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 16, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Skipping a test is a fail

and for a good reason. Read the blog Chris Cooley did about how they go about the tests

Once they draw a player, the NFL sends people to find them. You pretty much have to be trying to avoid them or flat out refuse to miss a test.

I'm still here in the flesh
Twenty-one year old legend
I'ma live way after my death
-Lil' Wayne "Get Down"

by shake n bake on Oct 16, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That was my first thought.

That Buffalo was aware of this injury and tried to pull a fast one (nothing against the Bills’ fans, who I think rock)…

The scary thing is that if this did slip past and he passed his physical, a bad hit could paralyze him…

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 16, 2008 10:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This sucks

This sucks because they’re was some really positive point made about our acquisition of McCargo. However I agree with some of the others and feel that it was unknown that there was an injury. It is standard practice to give a new player a physical, and all conditions are on hold till he passes that physical. A herniated disk is something that would of been found easily in the physicals that a NFL player must go through. So the Bills would of been out of there minds to try something. It’s just not something that’s left undone, there is always a physical. What really is bad is that McCargo didn’t come forward, to either Buffalo or Indy and say there was something wrong. If there had been a knowledge ahead of time, things would of been so much smoother in this situation. Situation is McCargo’s fault, other than our just plan bad luck at the position of DT.

by Scooty4422 on Oct 16, 2008 11:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree...

I don’t think this is a black mark on Buffalo or anything…as it was stated above, it is very common for a herniated disk to not cause pain…I know for a fact…I have one and am not doubled over in pain or anything. Is he damaged…yes, did Buffalo try to pull a fast one…I doubt it. Lets get off our high horse and quit thinking that every NFL team is untruthful and only the Colts organization is above board. Jeez, it didn’t work…quit blaming Buffalo…get over it BBS.

by TRDean on Oct 16, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I forgot...

My doctor told me that many people don’t know they have a herniated disk…It is quite possible that McCargo did not even know. They find out when it presses on that “nerve”.

by TRDean on Oct 16, 2008 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

This sucks but there’s little doubt in my mind that Buffalo did not do this on purpose. I have a torn disc in my back which acts similarly to a herniated one and it really can be hard to tell how bad it is sometimes. You especially have to take into account the fact that as a professional football player, he always has some sort of aches and pains. If his back had been sore from time to time, he could have gone on for a while without thinking something is wrong. Again, this sucks, but it doesn’t look like anyone did anything malicious (except of course Ed Johnson who maliciously got his ass kicked off the team and forced us into this position).

by psvirsky on Oct 16, 2008 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't get it

If McWhoosee couldn’t pass his physical, why wouldn’t the whole trade be nullified and the Colts retain their pick?

by LovinBlue on Oct 16, 2008 2:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The Colts do keep the pick

it’s like the trade never happened.

I'm still here in the flesh
Twenty-one year old legend
I'ma live way after my death
-Lil' Wayne "Get Down"

by shake n bake on Oct 16, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the issue was if the Colts physical hadn't found it

the Bills would get the pick then McCargo would be ineffective or too hurt to play.

I'm still here in the flesh
Twenty-one year old legend
I'ma live way after my death
-Lil' Wayne "Get Down"

by shake n bake on Oct 16, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah - thanks for the clarification

by LovinBlue on Oct 16, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

McCargo

He returned to Buffalo today and he practiced. Something is up.

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by BigBlueShoe on Oct 16, 2008 3:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If Quinn Comes back, its all good

That kid has way to much talent to walk away from football. Imagine if Peyton called it quits before the ’99 season, we all would be pissed. I hope to God he comes back.

by colts9318rock on Oct 16, 2008 6:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs