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Garbage officiating

OK, everyone gets a bad call once in a while. OK, the colts have made some dumb penalties and mistakes. OK, officials are human. With all that in mind, I want to set aside every single awful call from last night (illegal contact of Jackson? why, cause he stripped the receiver?) and focus in on what was truly an unforgivable error: the missed fumble.

It was the first quarter and the Colts were stoning the Titans. Keyunta Dawson hits Chris Johnson and the ball comes squirting out. Johnson was nowhere NEAR the turf, the Colts come up with the ball, the turnover flag is dropped and...nothing happens. No fumble is called, no recovery by the Colts, the Titans get the ball exactly where the COLTS came up with it not thirty seconds before. The replay shows a clear fumble, a challenge would be won without question, but...well, I guess that didn't happen. The refs just didn't SEE what they are paid to watch for above all else, even though tens of millions DID see it. Into the memory hole it goes, Titans come out with a field goal.

I understand that referees are human, but this is past the line of reasonable doubt. None of those official should ever work anything but high school games again.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors.

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The call was wrong

but there’s a reason coaches challenges exist. Dungy needs to throw the flag there.

Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.5 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA

by shake n bake on Oct 28, 2008 11:44 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

DUDE QUIT CRYING!!!!

It is not the Refs fault. They determined that the man was down. If they wanted to do something about it then they should have challenged the call. That is why Jeff Fisher had his team line up quickly and snap the ball.

by JagsCub on Oct 28, 2008 11:45 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Check that...

It was the refs fault, but it was such a bang, bang play that they ruled him down.

by JagsCub on Oct 28, 2008 11:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but they huddled

   The problem here I see is the refs huddled up… talked, then spotted the ball with NO explanation.. They never said he was down… So dungy may not have even realized it was a play that could be challenged, since nothing was said. That is what was inexcusable. The refs need to explain what they thing happened so the coaches know what the situation is and have the opportunity to challenge.

Missing the call is one thing… Totally screwing up by not making a ruling and just spotting the ball is NOT.

An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing...

by bluegirl on Oct 28, 2008 11:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

they never even made a call about who came up with the ball

they just put the ball down and the titans snapped it. Kudos to them for pulling a fast one.

by MarkFive05 on Oct 28, 2008 12:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually...

they did make a ruling. That’s why they spotted the ball. It is up to the coaches upstairs to make the call. They didn’t, and Tony didn’t throw the flag. End of story!

by JagsCub on Oct 28, 2008 7:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

when exactly

 did they make this ruling? Mike Carey never made any ruling on the field… they simply spotted the ball with no comment after huddling up.. THAT is what was the problem.. No one knew what they had decided.. How are you supposed to challenge if you don’t know why the ball is where it is?And what are the fans supposed to think. Given the long spiel some refs give this was really unusual…

An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing...

by bluegirl on Oct 29, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True.

I think that I would have thrown that flag as soon as I saw the Titans’ offense line up, tho. They knew they fumbled and did a “hurry up” to the line.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 29, 2008 12:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They don't "make a ruling" when the runner is ruled down.

They just mark the ball ready for play, and go on. It’s just like any other play. If the officials don’t rule that the ball was fumbled, they don’t do anything out of the ordinary.

It wouldn’t make sense for Carey to go “The ball may have been fumbled, but we think he was down. Coach Dungy, if you would like to challenge the ruling, please throw the red flag now.”

by gramsey712 on Oct 29, 2008 1:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

shut up

59?

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 29, 2008 1:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow.

If even half of what they wrote is true, he’s a pretty interesting guy. I’m impressed.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 29, 2008 3:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wondered about that

if they could challenge a “non call”…it was explained to me that they can challenge the fact that the officials were saying it was not a fumble. Possibly I misunderstood. I thought I heard one of the dimwit announcers mention something to that effect.

If you saw Dungy – he looked stunned. Fisher and Collins had the presence of mind to get that ball snapped pronto.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 29, 2008 1:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, they were right.

Dungy could have challenged the fact that they said it was not fumbled. Whoever recovered the ball should have run to him and told him to challenge it. He probably could not have seen what was happening.

But that is my point. The officials are not out there to explain to the coaches and players when the time is right or to remind them that they should/could challenge something. It is up to the coach to know what is going on. There are a lot of times that you will be watching the game and see the coach throw the challenge flag on a play that looked like nothing happened. The only time I have seen them get on the microphone and say “the runner was ruled down” was on a play that the ball was actually picked up and returned. If it just popped out and was recovered on the ground, it was likely spotted and the Line Judge or Head Linesman or Umpire said “he was down right here” to the Referee, and he blew the whistle for the ready for play.

Now, all that being said, I was at the game and have not seen the TV replays of this particular play. So I don’t really know what happened in this particular instance. I can only speak in generalities.

by gramsey712 on Oct 29, 2008 2:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank you

for the informative explanation. That is one thing I love about SB Nation, I learn something new every day.

As for the replays, I believe there was only one shown. ESPN has, in my opinion, ruined Monday Night Football.
Exhibit A: Kornheiser.
Exhibit B: The obvious lack of interest in the game in front of the them.
Exhibit C: They go to commerical at every opportunity. For some of the calls, they didn’t even show one replay.

I’m positive it was better with Madden and Michaels on ABC.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 29, 2008 3:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's an understatement.

LOL.

I am very seriously considering becoming a thorn in ESPN’s side. With the internet, it shouldn’t be too difficult to start a petition and call for people to inundate them with emails to remove Kornheiser – that’s the very least they should do.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 29, 2008 3:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The mistake they made

was trying to get “non-football fans interested” in MNF.

Well, guess what, I hope they like the “non-football fans” that they got, cause us football fans can’t stand to watch it. Unless our team is playing.

by gramsey712 on Oct 29, 2008 3:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly.

I haven’t had the sound turned up since week 2. I mute it every week. Kornheiser is more like a cheerleader than anything else…usually for Brett Favre regardless of who’s playing that week.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 29, 2008 3:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The other thing about Dungy that I didn't mention

I have not been to a game in Indianapolis, but anytime there is a close call like that in a game in Nashville, you can watch Coach Fisher immediatly look up at the Jumbotron. If it is something that should be considered for a challenge, the scoreboard operators will get it up on the board quick so he can see a replay. Obviously, however, they are not gonna do it if it would aid the opposition.

Surely that happens everywhere, but I don’t know for sure.

by gramsey712 on Oct 29, 2008 3:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have seen the replay

  I have seen the replay and he clearly fumbled the ball. The colts players were all over it and signaling they had the ball. The ball wasn’t spotted where the runner went down, but where the ball ended up.. so what the hell happened.

Like you said it was savvy on fisher’s part to hurry up and snap it, but if the officials don’t example why they spotted where the ball was recovered NOT where the runner went down that is problem.. They huddled up but never announced the runner was down despite all the action on the field..

An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing...

by bluegirl on Oct 29, 2008 3:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fumble

It appeared the colts were all over the fumble, and of course they were signalling they had the ball(everybody does). I want to know if anyone actually saw a colt with the ball recovered. The colts were the first ones there, but there were some Titans that got in the mix. Do we know for a fact that the Colts recovered the non-fumble that was actually a fumble?

by DonFrancisco on Oct 29, 2008 3:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From what I could see

of the non-fumble that was actually a fumble there were probably 4-5 Colts on the ball. Now, I’m probably not the most objective person to ask but honestly, that’s what I saw.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 29, 2008 3:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You are exactly right!

I should have said that it was a “defacto” ruling by placing the ball, and winding the clock.

by JagsCub on Oct 29, 2008 2:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but the ball was spotted

  where the ball was recovered. NOT where the runner was down.. And they huddled up.. After the referee’s huddle up they should explain why… Clearly there was discussion of whether it was a fumble. And MANY times after a discussion they say it was not because the runner was down…

Another key issue here is they DIDN’T WHISTLE IT DEAD.. Which meant the play after the runner lost the ball was still live, at that point they needed to explain what they ruled since the lack of a whistle implies it was a fumble…

An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing...

by bluegirl on Oct 29, 2008 3:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I looked for it on NFL films

they have highlights from the game, but that wasn’t one of them.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 29, 2008 3:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's funny.

The Giants’ fans said the same thing to me last week about the Titans….

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 29, 2008 5:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's strange

Why don’t the Giant fans like us? Maybe it’s cause they want to be #1 in the power rankings and they can’t beat the Browns.

See, I only hate the Colts twice a year. I hate the Patriots early and often. And the Chargers. Can’t stand the Chargers.

by gramsey712 on Oct 29, 2008 9:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah.

It was the ranking thing.

I hate the Chargers more than the Pats, actually. And after the debacle in the playoffs last year, living in Charger country has been a real bitch.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 30, 2008 10:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, I agree, but...

they still spotted the ball and started the clock. Bill Polian was asked about the same play, and stated in his interview that the Colts didn’t come up with the ball. That is why Dungy didn’t challenge.

Q: Why didn’t the Colts challenge on the play when Titans running back Chris Johnson fumbled and was called down by contact? It appeared he fumbled and the Colts recovered.

A: He (Titans tight end Alge Crumpler) recovered the ball. It was not visible on TV or from the press box, but when you look at the tape, he recovered the ball. It clearly was a fumble. We would have thrown the (challenge) flag had we recovered, but if you throw the flag, there’s nothing you can do about it. They won’t award you the ball. You have to have recovered it. We saw it on the tape. He recovered it.

by JagsCub on Oct 30, 2008 1:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm with Shake

THAT IS WHAT THAT LITTLE RED FLAG IS FOR, Coach Dungy.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 28, 2008 12:47 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

REFS ARE A JOKE

First, the fumble, are you kidding me? No comm between coaches in sideline and upstairs?? No challenge?? Officials not stating what was the damn call??

Second, the Jackson, illegal contact call. That looked like he was clearly stripping the receiver after he had contact with the ball.

Third, the Bullit, pass interference. If you didn’t see the play, we are talking maximum coverage by Bullit. I mean the guy was on top of the receiver. He did has some whisp of contact but milliseconds before the ball hit his back, because of the great coverage he had on the receiver. Then is called a foul.

Also, I think it was Lendale, he ran to the inzone and was tackled about 2 yards short, with his knees and elbows hitting the ground outside the inzone. But what?? TOUCHDOWN.

Then Dominic is pushing, in our last drive. Exact same play as Lendale’s, in terms of how he goes down, the ball breaks the plane of the inzone, but what?? NO TOUCHDOWN.

Also I’ve heard someone say that the NFL, didn’t wanted the game broadcasters to be pointing out about bad officiating and comentating, and replaying the bad calls time after time. What do you think about that??

Wasn’t that obvious when all three of these mentioned here occured. The comentators just kept quiet and didn’t say much. Now all those bad calls and “quick get aways” are going to covered by “the long arm of the NFL”.

We still had our chances to win, we didn’t loose because of the refs, but all of these calls would have changed posetion and/or put them into 4th down situations. And that has an impact on a game.

No matter where you play.

by CaribbeanColt on Oct 28, 2008 1:22 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

actually

that play was on the missed fg drive. in fact, if you check the play by play, the colts GAINED a yard of field possession on the mistake. they got the ball at the 33 after the missed field goal, instead of the 32, where johnson was ruled down. same drive where session, i believe, dropped a gimme pick.
whining about the refs on this one is ridiculous. if you want to blame someone blame dungy. the refs ruled him down, SO THERE WAS NOTHING TO ANNOUNCE. nevermind the fact that the whole thing lead to NO POINTS.

by hal41605 on Oct 28, 2008 1:24 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's true

That field goal was missed.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 28, 2008 1:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

though getting off the field and getting some rest would have helped the D

instead of staying on the field longer.

Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.5 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA

by shake n bake on Oct 28, 2008 1:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OR

Sessions should have caught that interception the next play or few plays after and gotten the offense good field position or even a return 6

by ColtsFanNChiTown on Oct 28, 2008 2:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Illegal Contact

I did not see the illegal contact b/c they did not show it on the replay. Illegal contact , which makes contact after 5 yards illegal, is not the same as pass interference. They did not think that Jackson made contact too soon before the ball got there. Rather, they must have called it for contact after 5 yards prior to the ball being thrown. Again, I didnt see it happen, but they did not show that part of the play on the replay.

Also Lendale’s TD? Really? The ball clearly crossed the line. Who care’s about where his knee and elbow ended up as long as the ball crossed the goaline first?

by DonFrancisco on Oct 28, 2008 2:03 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

TIVO anyone?

Did anyone go back and look for the illegal contact?

by DonFrancisco on Oct 28, 2008 2:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seriously? These guys go back and look? Actually think that they might not know the rules?

Officiating has been screwing over the Colts since the season started. I think I saw something on ESPN about the NFL telling the officials to screw the Colts every chance they get. It’s a conspiracy. C-O-N-spiracy.

I think Shake and coltsfanawalt are the only ones who actually try to understand the rules.

by gramsey712 on Oct 28, 2008 3:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Punk

I just realized I kinda sounded like a punk, and I didnt mean to. I really do want to know what happened on that play!

by DonFrancisco on Oct 28, 2008 4:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That is what happened.

The foul was before the ball was even thrown.

My point is no one attempts to find out what “illegal contact” is. They just get on here and say that the officials screwed up.

by gramsey712 on Oct 28, 2008 4:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought there was

One, maybe two bad calls all game, and they didn’t make a monumental difference tbh.

by furrycolt on Oct 28, 2008 9:20 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why even waste your dumb ass ideas on this blog? The Colts suck. Titans have beaten you losers 3 out of the last 4.

by titanjoe on Oct 29, 2008 4:56 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You think that's bad

you should see the one I actually deleted

Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.5 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA

by shake n bake on Oct 29, 2008 9:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Titan fans are only allowed to hate MCM

I do have to say that was a funny exchange when you mistyped not once, but twice, that you hated it there.

Definitely funny.

by mgrex03 on Oct 29, 2008 11:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the colts

gave us all we wanted for 3 quarters. don’t be an idiot.

by hal41605 on Oct 29, 2008 12:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Challenges suck

I find the rules around challenging horrible. I realize that obviously you can’t have unlimited challenges, but to think that 2 challenges are enough, with the rate of questionable calls, happening this year alone. I think in like a situation in the Colts Titans game, something that obvious in replays, should of been called down from the booth. There should be more of an effort to get every call right, and not just the one’s that are the 2 most important to your team a game. It would of been so easy as well, we seen the replay how many times before the Titans ran up and snapped the ball. The booth was watching exactly what we were, how hard, press a button, over rule the call on the field, at the very least make them review it. Get the call right period. I’m sure it wouldn’t have changed the outcome, but it would show the refs on the field and in the booth, doing there job, every play, to the best possible level they can.

by Scooty4422 on Oct 29, 2008 3:30 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good point.

I only remember seeing the replay once. But I was yelling because I thought it would be ruled a fumble/Colts recovery…you can imagine my surprise. ugh.

That would have given us great field position.

Ok, I gotta let it go. I’m not even excited for the Pats game Sunday Night.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Oct 29, 2008 3:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The sad reality is officiating league wide this season has sucked and many times teams have got the shaft. That blown fumble call was garbage especially since an official was looking right at it but what can you do. Until they somehow make officials truly accountable for blown calls this crap will continue. And by blown calls I mean obvious calls like that fumble seeing as the ball was coming out before he was even close to being down. I am fine if officials get the wrong calls on close plays and all that but when you blow an easy call then you should be held accountable.

by loregnum on Oct 29, 2008 3:47 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

unionized officials

  Part of the problem is the referees are unionized so it is VERY hard to introduce new measures like this since it would be a contract issue and I can’t imagine any union allowing the its members to have to actually be scrutinized like that..

An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing...

by bluegirl on Oct 29, 2008 6:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They would, however, be cool with being considered full-time employees. They actually tried for that several years ago, anybody remember the refs’ strike at the beginning of the 2001 season?

That’s what it was about, but they caved after like 2 weeks and getting a huge raise instead.

by hartley on Oct 30, 2008 3:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Refs aren't a big problem

The refs blow some calls. But I haven’t seen one game since 1959 where a call was the primary reason our Colts lost a game. Sure they’ve been contributors but it’s a 60 minute game and a lot happens. Without the butter fingers, spotty line play, hesitancy to throw the red flag, and a half dozen other things, maybe the Colts win. But these things all did happen and the Titans played good enough to win. It was all in our control to beat Tennessee but we did not out play the Titans. The refs aren’t the primary reason we lost. Over the length of a season, bad calls even out anyway. So give the refs a break… its a fast game and there are bodies flying all over the place. If you want to see really bad officiating, watch umpires call balls and strikes.

by coltfan59 on Oct 29, 2008 7:53 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed!

You’re spot on, coltfan59. As for the other so-called “bad calls”:

1. The illegal contact by Marlin had to have occurred earlier in the play—i.e. when the receiver made his break. Because ESPN sucks in pretty much all aspects of presenting MNF, we didn’t get to see a replay that showed that part of the play. What we did see—Marlin stripping the receiver—wasn’t the penalty.

2. Bullitt’s pass interference call was a good call. Bullitt made no play on the ball. Since the receiver was making a play, and Bullit was impeding the receiver’s chance to make a play without Bullitt actually making a play himself, it’s textbook pass interference. I’m too lazy to post a link to the NFL rules site, but it spells it out pretty clearly. All Bullitt had to do was simply look for the ball and it would have been a legal play.

3. The fumble was a bad call. However, Dungy had time to challenge it. We even got to see a replay before the Titans ran the next play, so there was time. Dungy should have thrown the flag in any case. As it went, this call didn’t cost the Colts anything—in fact, if Session could catch, it may have ended up benefiting them.

4. Lendale White scored. The ball broke the plane of the end zone before his knee or elbow touched.

5. Dominic may have scored, but did that call really matter? The Colts scored anyway.

6. There is absolutely no “conspiracy” to hide bad officiating, and there is no way the NFL is mandating TV broadcasters not talk about bad calls. First of all, all of the TV networks that air NFL games pay huge sums of money for the broadcast rights. As a result, the networks dictate their own broadcast content. If anything, the NFL is more influenced by the TV networks than the other way around.

The ESPN announcers (Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, and Tony Kornheiser) didn’t mention these calls because 1) they weren’t really bad calls (save for the fumble) and 2) they are dreadful broadcasters. Tirico is a sad excuse of a play-by-play guy; Jaworski sees nothing other than quarterback play and the 2 things he noticed on film preparing for the game; and Kornheiser knows little about football. The broadcasts are a joke.

7. I agree with Scooty4422’s sentiment about challenge rules. The main concern the league had when it instituted replay was not slowing down the game, so that’s why the challenges are limited. What I don’t like about the rule is the idea that you only have until the next snap to challenge, no matter what happens between the end of the play and that snap. On normal plays within a drive, this would give you roughly 30-35 seconds to make a decision to challenge (of course, smart offenses can change this by snapping the ball quickly to avoid a challenge by the other team). But if there’s an injury, or any timeout, after the play in question, that gives an advantage to the challenging team. What I’d like to see is a set amount of time after a play in which a challenge can be issued, say :40 seconds or so. This would end teams “hurrying up” to avoid challenges, limit the use of in-stadium replay to help home teams determine challenges (which would automatically benefit the Colts, since the goons who run the replays at Lucas don’t seem to know what to show), and make the process more consistent.

Okay, I’m off topic, and I’m rambling. I think what I’m trying to say is I hope the Colts beat the Pats 79-6.
 

by Lom Henn on Oct 30, 2008 1:13 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All points good except #7.

How do you regulate when a team can go no huddle. If that was the case then all teams would lose out on the opportunity to suprise their opponents by keeping them off guard. It is consistent as it is. Consistently bad.

Replay is great, but at what point does it get ridiculous. I think we are on the precipice as we speak. Just think if we didn’t have replay. Would be happy with the results? Probably not. Can it be improved? Not by much. It is what it is, and there’s nothing we as fans can do about it.

by JagsCub on Oct 30, 2008 1:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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