Nearly 10 years later, Peyton Manning and Kurt Warner battle it out again for NFL MVP
Interesting comment fro jay16 in this FanPost:
I tell you what. As of right now he is 4th or 5th ranked for my MVP. He has some games coming up against some totally weaker foes, if he can demolish the Browns, Lions, Bengals, and pad his numbers to outshine Warner's, and throw in his 4th quarter comebacks this year, hands down, I will throw in the towel, he’s earned it. Right now here is what I have
1.Kurt Warner
2.Eli Manning
3.Clinton Portis
4.Joey Porter
5.Peyton Manning
Good points, but I don't agree. Maybe Jay16 is a bit more unbiased than me (he probably is) but I think they will give the MVP to Peyton Manning this year if he gets the Colts in the playoffs and not Kurt Warner. Interestingly enough, just two weeks ago, we SB Nation writers had Clinton Portis practically locked up as NFL MVP at the mid-season point. Now, he is barely even in the conversation.
The people at the top of the conversation are Peyton Manning and Kurt Warner, and it was nearly ten years ago that a then-unknown Kurt Warner was battling it out with a second year phenom named Peyton Manning. In the time since, both have won Super Bowls, multiple MVPs, and several division titles with their respective teams. Yet, Peyton has clearly proven he is the better QB, and it is this reason why he will likely take home his third MVP this year.
In the fourth quarter of big games, Peyton has been phenomenal
Photo: www.bcsfrenzy.com
Look, I'm not going to knock Warner. FO ranks him as the most efficient QB in the NFL right now. He is completing 70%-friggin-percent of his passes. His team is poised to win their division this Sunday (they won't because they are playing the Giants, but the fact that they can lock up their division in November says something about their success this year). Warner has been the driver of the Cardinals offense, and with WRs like Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin the Cards are able to put up points quickly. This has taken pressure off their defense, which is more solid than good.The other pro in the Kurt for MVP corner is he has played consistently well since Week One, and I think there is merit to the notion that the MVP is for the best player from Week 1 to Week 17, not from Week 8 to 17.
But the plain and simple truth is Peyton Manning is a better QB than Kurt Warner, and he has had to fight through a helluva lot more adversity this season than Warner has to get his name into the MVP consideration.
Peyton started the season hurt, recovering from a staph infection in his knee and surgery to remove his knee's bursa sac. He showed up to the first game of the season thin, out of game shape, and not as mobile as he once was. But, in typical Peyton form, he fought through it. Adding to this is the sheer holy freaking crap difficulty of the Colts schedule. Starting with a healthy Chicago team, going to Minnesota, an 0-2 Jacksonville team, a totally desperate 0-3 Houston team, Green Bay at Lambeau, Tennessee in Nashville, and Baltimore with their foot-to-your-nuts defense.
Ugh.
Contrast this with Warner, who plays in the division that features the hapless Rams, 49ers, and Seahawks. Warner's division opponents have a combined record of 5-28, and Warner has feasted on these teams this year. 4 of Arizona's 6 wins are against the terrible NFC West. And while 2 of Indy's 6 wins are against the 3-7 Texans, I'll argue that the Texans are about better than the garbage that passes for "competition" in the NFC West.
Kurt Warner is having an amazing 2008 season.
Photo: i.a.cnn.net
Where Peyton trails Warner is in the stats. Warner will also help his team win their division. Peyton and the Colts likely will not win the AFC South. But what Manning has done is willed his team to comeback or razor-thin wins despite the statistics. The Minnesota game is one such example. In the game, Manning had a 72 QB rating for that game, throwing 2 INTs and facing a pass rush that knocked him around all game. But Manning's heroics in the 4th quarter, including an outstanding throw to get a key first down to Reggie Wayne, got the Colts in position to win the game on Adam Vinatieri's 48 yard FG. Two weeks later, Manning had another big fourth quarter comeback at the expense of Sage Rosenfels and the Texans.
Peyton then went to Pittsburgh and threw 3 TDs in Indy's first win there in 40 years. Several weeks prior, he shredded Baltimore's outstanding defense.
The case for Manning is not the overall statistics, but how he has performed in the clutch against incredible adversity. With injuries to his offensive line and his running backs, Peyton has had to loft up 380 attempts, exposing him to more hits from defenders. Yet, despite the hits, Peyton Manning has not fumbled. Kurt Warner, a known fumbler, has coughed it up 7 times (almost once a game) and lost 5 of them. Fumbles are not included in standard NFL QB rating. Why, I don't know.
So, when you factor in these other elements (strength of opponents, performance in the clutch, and overall importance to the team) then Peyton Manning is the clear front-runner for MVP. If your focus is simple numbers, then it is Warner. I personally do not think MVP voters are going to give Warner (who has not been relevant since the Rams lost the Super Bowl to the Patriots in 2001) the MVP over Peyton, especially if Peyton closes the season strong and gets Indy into the playoffs.
I realize that Warner winning MVP would be a big boost to the Cardinals who have had very little to cheer about pretty much since they moved to Arizona. But the simple truth is that Warner might not be a Cardinal next year, and sitting on their bench is the first round draft pick of 2006 (Matt Leinart). MVP voters will factor that into their consideration. And when you compare Manning's play under pressure to Warner's, Peyton has the edge. In any case, it is fun and ironic that here we are, nearly ten years later, talking about Peyton and Kurt as MVP candidates.
UPDATE: Great comment from shonuff:
One thing I can’t imagine – If Kurt Warner wins MVP this year, it will be his third, making him only the 2nd player to win 3. Three freakin MVPs! The other, as we all know, is Brett Favre, who is a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. I’m going to go out on a limb here, and say that Kurt Warner is not really even in the discussion for the Hall of Fame at this point. It just seems so strange that a QB who [could win] 3 MVPs isn’t even in the discussion of greatest of all time, and probably not a Hall of Famer.
This is another reason why Warner will not get the MVP this year. He is not a Hall of Famer. He has had three great NFL seasons, and has lost his starting job several times with several teams due to erratic play.
Comments
Case closed.
Very well put. I couldn’t agree more.
Strength of schedule, clutch, no fumbles dispite being hit a million times and his literally willing the Colts to victory in more than one game prove, to me, he should be the next MVP.
Someone pointed out that he will have to start padding his stats (which he can do, given the remainder of the schedule) and get the Colts into the playoffs – I think that’s true also.
Another possibilty: they’ll make Peyton and Warner share the MVP…
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on
Nov 20, 2008 11:48 AM EST
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If the Colts make the playoffs I’ll agree he deserves it.
The King of Anti-Fail and Unofficial Moderator of Stupid People
by KingRichard on
Nov 20, 2008 11:54 AM EST
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Sidenote: Eli Manning
At this point I think the Peyton/Warner distinction is tough, and while I come up on Manning’s side, it’s not that easy.
However, I think it’s worth noting that Eli should not be anywhere in this discussion. He has been decent and runs the team fine, but overall he is just not playing like an elite QB. He has a great defense and an unbelievable running game. When your team rushes for 200 yards a game, you should be able to complete more than 60% of your passes. I really don’t want to take too much away from him because he plays like a winner and all, but he is just not the guy winning games for the Giants.
I do like the Joey Porter pic though. That team has done a 180 and it’s got to be because of either him or Parcells. The way that team has been playing is pretty unbelievable and his 13 sacks are definitely a big part of that.
by psvirsky on
Nov 20, 2008 11:59 AM EST
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I’ll say this again:
Defensive players do not deserve to be on the MVP ballot. They have their own award.
The King of Anti-Fail and Unofficial Moderator of Stupid People
by KingRichard on
Nov 20, 2008 12:07 PM EST
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so do offensive players
there are both offensive and defensive players of the year and the MVP.
I still generally agree with the first part though. A single offensive player can have a bigger impact than a single defensive player. To cite some FO research offenses are more consistent year to year than defenses, because the performance of an offense usually rests on a few core players, while it takes a whole unit for a great D.
Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA
by shake n bake on
Nov 20, 2008 12:11 PM EST
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It’s the same exact award in my opinion. How you name someone other than the MVP as OPOTA is pretty ridiculous.
The King of Anti-Fail and Unofficial Moderator of Stupid People
by KingRichard on
Nov 20, 2008 12:13 PM EST
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but there is an award besides the MVP to recognize the best offensive player
so if a defensive player was just absolutely dominant like say LT in 1986 (when he was the unanimous MVP with 20.5 sacks) you can still recognize the best offensive player that year (which was Eric Dickerson with 18,00 rushing and 2,000 total yards)
Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA
by shake n bake on
Nov 20, 2008 12:27 PM EST
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OPOY...
This year Manning should (hopefully will) win the MVP… Drew Brees will most likely win OPOY… If he can move the ball against the Packers and the Panthers he’ll break Dan Marino’s single season passing yards record… Meanwhile, neither Manning nor Warner will put up any neat-o stats this year (except for 4th quarter comebacks for Manning) and there are no running backs breaking the TD record this year…
by Nideak on
Nov 20, 2008 1:17 PM EST
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I'm a Giants fan
and I agree with this 100%. I love Eli, but he is NOT the MVP of the Giants, let alone the league. If you put a gun to my head and asked for the Giants MVP, I’d probably go with Brandon Jacobs, but that’s only b/c you can’t give the award to the entire O-Line. But the fact is, they are the reason we’re 9-1.
by cjmulrain on
Nov 20, 2008 3:55 PM EST
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In defense of Warner
- It’s hard to say that Warner’s importance to the Cardinals is less than Peyton’s to the Colts. While the Cardinals running gamemay not have had the same injury problems as the Colts, they’ve certainly had the same amount of ineffectiveness. The Cardinals average just ten more rushing yards per game than the Colts and the Colts actually get more yards per carry. Both QB’s have had to be the bulk of their offense.
- I have no idea if history or who’s actually the better QB will play into this year’s MVP, but I do know that it shouldn’t. The MVP isn’t a lifetime achievement award, it’s based on who was the best or ‘most valuable’ to their team in the regular season.
- I think by the end of the season the level of competition will somewhat even itself out. The Cardinals still have the Giants, Eagles (in Philly), Pats (in Foxsboro) and Minnesota on their schedule. If KW finishes with stats that are still better than Peyton’s, I’d bet that he wins. If Warner finishes with over 5,000 yards, 30+ TDs, less picks than Peyton and gets the freaking Cardinals into the playoffs, shouldn’t he be the MVP?
Just my opinion guys but I like the debate.
by cgolden on
Nov 20, 2008 12:41 PM EST
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No doubt Warner is having a great season.
I think we just look at all of the problems the Colts have had this year and Peyton manages to pull out wins seemingly without any help. (Although the 1st game v. the Texans, the D definitely stepped up)
That said, if Warner pulls off the 5K yards with less picks (and fumbles) and takes the Cards significantly into the playoffs (ie: Championship game), then he deserves it.
BTW, I’ve always liked Warner – he seems like a good guy, good person. I’d put him 3rd behind Peyton and Eli for the good guy award. ;)
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on
Nov 20, 2008 1:07 PM EST
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respective Defenses
The Cardinals have allowed more points than the Colts.
by cgolden on
Nov 20, 2008 1:28 PM EST
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To me
It comes down to, can arizona win those games. If the Colts win out and Manning gets to 30+ while the cardinals lose to perenial playoff contenders, I dont thinks its a contest on who the MVP is.
by metal_militia on
Nov 20, 2008 1:08 PM EST
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Answers
- Agreed, it is not a lifetime achievement award. However, if, say, Tom Brady and, say, Damon Huard were having MVP-like seasons with similar numbers and wins, the voters would go with Brady because he is so obviously better.
- This still doesn’t account for the awful NFC West. If Arizona does ok in the games you mention, they will still have many of their wins against the AFC West. Also, they will win their division almost by default. The Colts have an undefeated team in their division, and as bad as Houston and Jacksonsville have looked this year, they are better than SF, St. Louis, and Seattle.
SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account and post a diary, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.
by BigBlueShoe on
Nov 20, 2008 1:19 PM EST
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- Wow, Damon Huard? I’m sure you’d put Manning on the same level, if not above Brady, so you’re saying that Huard = Warner?
- I can’t disagree with how bad the NFC West is but Brady won it last year in a division that didn’t have another winning team.
by cgolden on
Nov 20, 2008 1:28 PM EST
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he's not playing like that now
but in the gap between his Rams and Cardinals career he sucked
Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA
by shake n bake on
Nov 20, 2008 1:49 PM EST
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Odd
One thing I can’t imagine – If Kurt Warner wins MVP this year, it will be his third, making him only the 2nd player to win 3. Three freakin MVPs! The other, as we all know, is Brett Favre, who is a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. I’m going to go out on a limb here, and say that Kurt Warner is not really even in the discussion for the Hall of Fame at this point. It just seems so strange that a QB who has won 3 MVPs isn’t even in the discussion of greatest of all time, and probably not a Hall of Famer.
The Shogun of Harlem
by shonuff on
Nov 20, 2008 1:10 PM EST
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as mentioned by BBS,
Warner’s problem is the fumbles. He seems to be a really good QB when he’s not having a total meltdown game. It’s just that most years, he has a 3-4 int, 4-5 fumble game somewhere along the way and get’s benched in favor of “QB of the future.”
The difference this year is that when he had that game against the Jets in week 4, Ken Whisenhunt didn’t bench him. I was shocked because that’s how he’s lost the starting jobs in St. Louis, New York, and also Arizona under the previous regime. So give credit to Whisenhunt for giving Warner a second chance this year.
I think the reason Warner isn’t in the HOF discussion more is that it’s hard to take a guy too seriously who’s lost the starting job multiple times due to poor play.
by jedye on
Nov 20, 2008 1:36 PM EST
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injuries were just as much of a factor in STL
by cgolden on
Nov 20, 2008 1:39 PM EST
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maybe they're related
Here’s the recap of his last meaningful game with Rams.
Sounds rough.
He had 6 fumbles, 1 int and went to the hospital afterwards with a concussion. The irony is that this was at the hands of the Giants, the team he started for the next year.
Your point about injury in St. Louis is a good one. Figure he would be out 3-4 weeks with a concussion. By the time he was ready to come back Bulger already had a few games playing decently, so I guess they decided to keep playing him until he struggled, except he lead them to a 12 win season. But you can’t tell me the memory of seeing your QB put the ball on the ground 6 times didn’t have some bearing in the Rams deciding to really see what they had in Bulger.
by jedye on
Nov 20, 2008 2:04 PM EST
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Say what?
Warner’s career stats are incredible….2 time MVP, Superbowl MVP, most passing yardage in a superbowl HISTORY, 2nd or 3rd in passer rating and completion percentage IN HISTORY, 1st in yards per pass IN HISTORY, 1st in 300 yards per games percentage wise at 47% IN HISTORY compared to distant 2nd Fouts at 26%. Tied for 1st with Manning for most games with perfect passer rating…Great comparison achievements compared to last 5 QB’s inducted into the Hall of Fame…..Elway, Aikman, Moon, Young and Marino stacked up against those guys playing 65 FEWER games than the closest (Aikman)…This year he is leading Cards to first division win in 30 plus years on a 1 dimensional team that everyone knows is going to pass…he torched the panthers (2nd best team in NFC) who have one of the best passing d’s in the league for 375 yards…d cost then that game..
Manning is great no doubt, but he is the only QB I’ve ever known that has had the same offensive coordinator his whole career….big benefit that often gets overlooked..
by japrams on
Nov 20, 2008 9:33 PM EST
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it depends if you value extended greatness
or absolutely ridiculous high level peak. I’m biased. Kurt Warner grew up 20 minutes from my hometown.
Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA
by shake n bake on
Nov 20, 2008 10:33 PM EST
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Yeah I don’t get it either. Why shouldn’t Warner be considered for the HoF?
The King of Anti-Fail and Unofficial Moderator of Stupid People
by KingRichard on
Nov 21, 2008 8:00 AM EST
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One thing strikes me funny.
With this article and the talk in a couple of others about Edge, we are talking more Cardinals than we are Chargers. I think DaBoltz is going to get a complex over there in his fanpost dungeon.
Oh, and I believe Manning should get the MVP hands down because quite honestly, I am completely a Colts homer. (Blast that truth serum!)
by coltsfanawalt on
Nov 20, 2008 1:21 PM EST
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Oh, don't worry
Chargers articles a comin’.
SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account and post a diary, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.
by BigBlueShoe on
Nov 20, 2008 1:22 PM EST
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Kerry Collins
Can someone please call ESPN and let them know that Kerry Collins should not and will not win MVP…he’s not even the 1st or 2nd MVP on his own team…I have to buy a new tv every time they mention his name as MVP…I can’t help myself but to throw the controller at the tv
by ColtsFanNChiTown on
Nov 20, 2008 2:33 PM EST
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ESPN=Bandwagon
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on
Nov 20, 2008 3:55 PM EST
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Dungy for MVP!!!
Sorry. Wrong thread…
by coltsfanawalt on
Nov 20, 2008 5:09 PM EST
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LOL!
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on
Nov 20, 2008 5:27 PM EST
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If the Cowboys make the playoffs
Romo has to be a strong candidate for MVP
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on
Nov 21, 2008 9:47 AM EST
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Why’s that?
The King of Anti-Fail and Unofficial Moderator of Stupid People
by KingRichard on
Nov 21, 2008 10:02 AM EST
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How can he be a candidate?
When he’s been out for a month.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on
Nov 21, 2008 12:25 PM EST
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Terry
I love ya man, but that what just laughable.
SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account and post a diary, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.
by BigBlueShoe on
Nov 22, 2008 12:16 AM EST
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Wow.
Real spicy topics when I’m scrolling to page two to read all the posted comments in multiple threads.
by coltsfanawalt on
Nov 21, 2008 7:19 PM EST
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Myehhh...
I think it is mainly in this corner of the universe that the Manning boys are considered MVP candidates. Eli has an outside shot, given the Giants record, but Peyton hasn’t been in any discussions I have heard. Kurt Warner is easily ahead at this point based on performance and sentiment.
Also Brett Favre I think is ahead ahead of the Mannings, based on what he has done with a team that had 4 wins last season. Not to mention his stats and leadership skills. Plus Brett is more popular on his worst day than the entire Manning family on their best.
by robert ethan on
Nov 22, 2008 12:19 AM EST
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Kurt Warner
is guaranteed a HOF spot. Are you insane? The guy has had a phenomenal career.
by BeansCarter on
Nov 22, 2008 2:58 PM EST
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