The Dungy Bucs vs The Gruden Bucs

by shake n bake on Nov 20, 2008 1:45 PM EST Comment 23 comments

Tony Dungy took over a team that hadn't had a winning record in a decade and had a grand total of 3 playoff appearances in it's 20 year history with just one playoff win. In the next 6 years with Dungy the Bucs made the playoffs 4 times, had the winningest season in franchise history and became the winningest coach in franchise history (a mark it took Gruden an extra 10 games to pass).

But no one denies Dungy is a great coach who turned around a pitiful franchise. The criticisms leveled at Coach Dungy are that his teams couldn't win the Superbowl and that he never built an adequate offense in Tampa.

Commenter Ayrshire said this about why the Bucs won a Superbowl under Gruden, but not Dungy,

Dungy clearly was partly responsible, as I mentioned above, for creating a great defense (maybe the best of all time) which could only go so far with no offense. Gruden came in and finished the job by actually adding an offense which was more than run, run pass, punt.

The 2001 Bucs under Tony Dungy finished 15th in the league in points scored. The next year, the future Superbowl Champion Bucs finished 18th in points scored. The difference is even more pronounced in FootballOutsiders DVOA. The 2001 Bucs ranked 12th in the league, Gruden's Superbowl Bucs? 21st.

Maybe Gruden needed more time to add an offense (though then adding an offense wouldn't be what won them the Superbowl). The next season, 2003, the Bucs were 17th in offensive DVOA and remained 18th in points scored. 3rd year's the charm right? Nope, the Bucs offense stepped backward to 22nd in DVOA and 23rd in points scored. The Gruden Bucs Offense never topped the offense in Dungy's final year in points scored and didn't finish higher in DVOA until last year.

That was just one year under Dungy, even though Gruden's Bucs didn't top that year (which wasn't even the Dungy Bucs best) in any of the 5 years after Dungy was fired, maybe they average out better.

Year	Dungy Points	Gruden Points	Dungy DVOA	Gruden DVOA
1	30th	18th	28th	21st
2	23rd	18th	15th	17th
3	18th	23rd	21st	22nd
4	27th	20th	25th	19th
5	6th	31st	12th	30th
6	15th	18th	12th	9th
Ave.	19.8th	21.1st	19th	19.7th

The Bucs under Dungy had a better offense than the Bucs though Gruden's 6 full years as the head coach.

Now for the playoffs. With the Bucs Dungy's playoff record was 4 appearances, 2-4 with 2 one and dones. Gruden's record in 3 appearances 3-2 with 2 one and dones. Gruden's Bucs have made the playoffs one less time, won only one more game there and failed in the first round the same number of times. Without the all time great defenses that Dungy had built Gruden is 0-2 in the playoffs.

I don't think we need to talk about whether Dungy can coach a Superbowl team

via blog.mlive.com

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Comments

The only reason Gruden won a superbowl was becasue he happened to run into the raiders in the superbowl running the exact same offense he ran a year earlier…. Without that, no superbowl!

by Jory1111 on Nov 20, 2008 1:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

thanks that was a nice paragraph added

Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA

by shake n bake on Nov 20, 2008 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for this article, shake!

by coltsfanawalt on Nov 20, 2008 2:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

after I skipped class to write 1 1/2 pages on it

I think I’ve found what my last paper of the semester will be on. I’m halfway to the minimum without expanding it to his Colts career.

Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA

by shake n bake on Nov 20, 2008 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would love to see the final draft.

by coltsfanawalt on Nov 20, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

oh yeah I'm posting it

it’s suppose to be written as if for an audience so I’m writing it for an audience

Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA

by shake n bake on Nov 20, 2008 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Major?

Shake, what are you majoring in? Yes, I know that question has bad grammar.

by TouchdownMonkey on Nov 20, 2008 2:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Ideally Journalism

if I could do this type of thing for a living I’d love it.

but I’m not sure yet. I’m still taking some math-science heavy stuff, but sports journalism is what I’d love to do.

Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA

by shake n bake on Nov 20, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If ESPN hires you

I will never speak to you again… except to ask to borrow money, of course.

SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account and post a diary, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.

by BigBlueShoe on Nov 20, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

you'd still read me though

and would call me a douche significantly less than any of MSM writer.

Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA

by shake n bake on Nov 20, 2008 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

*other MainStream Media writer

Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA

by shake n bake on Nov 20, 2008 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

I suppose so, yes. No podcasts with Simmons though.

SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account and post a diary, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.

by BigBlueShoe on Nov 20, 2008 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

never

if only because I would make his voice sound deep and manly by comparison

Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA

by shake n bake on Nov 20, 2008 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Now that's funny!

by coltsfanawalt on Nov 20, 2008 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You definitely have a knack for stats (and using them correctly to make a point).

by TouchdownMonkey on Nov 20, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Even if you were hired by ESPN

I’d be a fan.

You’re pretty good at this stuff.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Nov 20, 2008 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So basically Ayrshire, what SnB is trying to say is, you are wrong on every level possible. This is hilarious.

The King of Anti-Fail and Unofficial Moderator of Stupid People

by KingRichard on Nov 20, 2008 3:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Wrong on ever possible level?

Are you kidding me? Listen, the number don’t lie. In Dungy’s 6 playoff games, his team scored point totals of 20, 7, 14, 6, 3, and 9. That’s an average of 9.8 points per game. Any prudent owner would fire a coach when that’s all he was able to muster in playoff games. The regular season offense was pathetic enough, but it was even worse for Dungy’s Bucs in the playoffs. And, the last lost to Philly of 31-9 was probably the straw that broke the camel’s back. There was no light at the end of the tunnel. I know 90 to 95 percent of all fellow Colts fans think Dungy walks on water, but just take a serious look at the above numbers. They are not in dispute. Lucky for Dungy he found a job in Indy with Peyton in place. Dungy improved the defense, but not even close to the Tampa Bay level. But, the greatness of Manning carried him forward to the promised land eventually after the 2006 season. And, then Tony wrote a book called ‘Quiet Strength’. He should have called it ‘Peyton Strength’.

by Ayrshire on Nov 21, 2008 11:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Listen dude, I don’t want to turn this into an on-going flamefest from both of us alright? Let’s just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I’m going to man up and apologize for the derogatory things I said towards you and about you so we can just squash this. I generally try to follow the basic principles of argumentation but sometimes I just can’t help myself from freaking out on people, but I’m trying. So anyways, it’s over, let’s move on.

The King of Anti-Fail and Unofficial Moderator of Stupid People

by KingRichard on Nov 21, 2008 12:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Fair enough.

by Ayrshire on Nov 21, 2008 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Shake

You also have a good personality through your writing. I have a couple of friends who frequent this site, and we have talked before about the good balance you display between stats and people skills. I hope the future is bright for you, my friend.

by coltsfanawalt on Nov 20, 2008 5:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

thanks

I do all this because I love it. Nothing else even factors in.

Shonn Greene for Heisman
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA

by shake n bake on Nov 20, 2008 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And I have been priveleged to discover

that when you get paid to do what you love to do anyhow, life is sweet. Someone defined contentment as having what you want and wanting what you have. Well, carreer contentment could then be doing what you love and loving what you do. Of course, all of this then becomes a matter of perspective and attitude.

This is getting too philosophical, though. Just hope life lets you take a stab at sports journalism.

by coltsfanawalt on Nov 20, 2008 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs