3rd and LONG D
So we have all seen that alignment the Colts D has been running, with 3 down lineman and usually Raheem Brock playing a stand up DT kinda thing. He either rushes or drops into coverage. I thought when they ran it last night they had some decent pressure on the QB but poor tackling resulted in conversions for the Jags. Brock had his sack out of this formation which changed the course of the game significantly. So why don't they run this more with either Mathis or D. Free playing that position? Somebody had made the comment that if either of them played in a 3-4 as an OLB (ala James Harrison, Demarcus Ware, Joey Porter) that they could have sick sack numbers. This is because of the angles they would get on the Tackles.
I think this may be a formation (with 93 & 98) that comes out in the playoffs, sort of like a rabbit out of the hat. I could be wrong thought.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors.
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that spot is more like a 3-4 ILB
than the 3-4 OLB that Harrison, Porter and Ware play. 3-4 ILBs are oversized 4-3 MLBs (because they have less protection from the DL so have to take on more blocks). It’s the 3-4 OLB spots that Mathis and Freeney could kill at.
Shonn Greene for Heisman
Doak Walker award winner
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA
by shake n bake on Dec 19, 2008 3:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yah, if Freeney and/or Mathis played in a 3-4
They’d lead the league in sacks every year. Much harder to be taken away when you’re a pass rushing LB in a 3-4 than it is to be chipped, doubled, tripled, held, shot, choked, whatever else they do to Freeney in a 4-3. Oh, after reading the last sentence of your first paragraph, I was the one that made the comment, I think. They would be sick. Bob Sanders would be sick in a 3-4, too. We have 3 good 3-4 players, we just don’t have the two ILB or 3 huge linemen for it. Hayden and Jackson would probably be OK in a 3-4, too. Anyhow this is all madden talk, they don’t have the roster or scheme or desire to play a 3-4. But those two players would put up nice numbers if they did.
by Nideak on Dec 19, 2008 3:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not saying change the scheme
This is clearly just a wrinkle for the D. I am just asking if Brock is the right guy to put in that position or if they would be better putting Mathis or Freeney in their for those 3rd and longs. That is the only scenario that we run it in, and we also seem to do alot of stunts (crossing the DTs or DEs) in this formation. My question really was would 98/93 get to the QB more effectively than brock in that scenario? Because he comes up the middle sometimes too.
by canadiancolts on Dec 19, 2008 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Out of all the guys on the line,
they probably feel like Brock, while the most well rounded, is also the one you can MOST afford to give up in the pass rush. If the Colts started randomly dropping Mathis and/or Freeney into coverage, well, i’m not sure its the smartest move. I love Brock, great player, but in 3rd and 10, the 2 people i want going after the QB the most are Freeney and Mathis. Now, they did slide Freeney inside a bunch the past 2 weeks, they would put him at DT and move Mathis to his side, and then put them both on the same side of the DL, but they have yet to use them as DTs standing up, and I doubt they will.
by Nideak on Dec 19, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right. I’m sure the reason Brock is the one freelancing like that precisely because he has shown the best abilities in coverage in whatever amount of time they devoted to this in practice.
I like that he’s able to do that because a comeback-minded offense has to face the reality that there might be 8 in coverage, but he also has the freedom to rush on a delay after picking his own gap. It’s very 3-4 linebacker ish.
Speaking of D linemen in coverage, it was fun to see the Colts attack a zone blitz last night a couple of times. And refreshing to have a commentator who noticed and explained it.
by willyduer on Dec 19, 2008 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
angles
I don’t think there’s really anything that different about the angles OLBs get when they rush compared to our guys. Freeney especially lines up way outside to get that same kind of angle a lot of the time. Like 11 technique (off the chart) way past the tight end wide. They do a lot to change it up and never give the tackles the same look twice.
by willyduer on Dec 19, 2008 6:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
angles
First, I don’t think the Colts use as much wide-9 or 11 (I’ve never heard 11 technique, but same idea either way) since the 2006 regular season. Freeney usually stays pretty tight to the formation, especially when he’s on the weak side of the formation. They usually don’t go into the fanned out formation unless its a REAL obvious passing situation (3rd and long).
Second, someone like a Joey Porter (I can’t speak to DeMarcus Ware because I don’t watch enough of him, but I’ll spy him tomorrow night) ALWAYS lines up on the weak side. Thats why its easier for someone like him to wrack up sacks. Only job is to rush the passer? Check. ALways on weak side? Check. In a 3-4 where the OL are occupied by fatasses? Check.
Third, I referred to angles in the post the original post is referring to, but I referred to other things, as well, like being able to go weakside more, facing less double teams, etc… There are a lot of advantages to being a 3-4 OLB as opposed to a 4-3 DE. Especially in Freeney’s case where the Colts have struggled to find Warren Sapp or John Randle to force the opponents OL to double the inside guys and take some pressure off of the ends.
Just look at the ridiculous arcade numbers being put up by the OLBs in the Dallas, Pitts, and Ravens defenses. I think it makes what Michael Strahan did (even if he got the last one gift wrapped) even more impressive.
by Nideak on Dec 19, 2008 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but...
Oh the flipside of this is that we’re perfectly setup for a Tampa 2 minus a DT. Our safeties are extremely fast and provide good coverage and give run support on occassion, our DEs are probably up there, if not the best combo in the league, our LBs are good in coverage and extremely fast, and our corners know how to set up a zone. That’s one of the main reasons why we’ve only given up 6 TDs this year. When you’re 11-4, at SOME point teams are trying to win the game. But we’re keeping them out of the end zone.
The reason we’re not getting pressure as much pressure on the QB is because our DTs don’t scare anyone. Especially after losing Johnson at the beginning of the season and the last game it was terrible when Foster didn’t play. And Foster should be a #2 DT at best. If we don’t threaten anyone with our DTs they’re just going to put one guy on them and double up the DEs and force them to the outside, leaving gaps on our ends. They just bracket and pinch the DTs to the middle and if our DEs even try to spin or swim to the outside the O-line just uses Freeney and Mathis’ momentum to cause them to overcommit to the edges.
There’s nothing wrong with our scheme. Some of the best defenses in the past decade have used it. Bears and Tampa are both Tampa 2s, and I honestly think we’d be about as good or better if we had a Warren Sapp or a Tommie Harris.
At the moment we’d be even worse in a 3-4. Much worse in fact. In a 3-4 your NT has to be able to demand double teams. If we’re using the dudes we are now we’re basically using glorified LBs to try to take on a center and a guard.
And we’ve seen first hand what the Tampa 2 with our players can do when they have almost the exact same personel but a decent DT.
http://www.colts.com/sub.cfm?page=coachbio&coach_id=23
You can read it for yourself, but if you don’t want to it basically says that last year we were first in defensive scoring and third in total defense. And that’s after Booger got hurt but we found out we had an up and coming talent. Until he got caught smoking the dope and you guys know about the Colts and character requirements.
But in 2005 when we had Corey Simon “In 2005, Indianapolis surrendered 247 points, the lowest 16-game seasonal total in club history and ranked 2nd in NFL scoring defense. Mathis (11.5) and Freeney (11) produced a torrid sack pace.” That’s what a Tampa 2 with a decent DT allows your DEs to do. Johnson was 300 lb undrafted FA rookie. Simon was a #1 draft pick but never showed potential in Philly so we went after him. McFarland was the second guy behind Sapp.
Personally, I love the Tampa 2 and I think our personel if probably one of the best out of alot of Tampa 2s I’ve seen. Except we don’t have a decent DT. Tampa 2s are great for pass rushing DEs and safeties. If you get two dudes like Mathis and Freeney on the edges and a safety like Bob, you cause chaos on the front line and force them to throw into very complex coverage. And the safety has so much freedom they really shine. But on the flip side if you don’t have a DT that isn’t bigger than the majority of the leagues TEs, you get exactly what we have been. 125.5 ypg against us on the ground.
If we switched to the 3-4 with our personel it’d literally be up around 170-180 per game.
This is a great web site, but anyway, this is the defense I think we might be perfectly setup for. Sanders basically being in the box almost the whole time in an 8 man front and still have zone coverage. I actually think if we did this in the playoffs it would improve our chances significantly. We definitely need Brackett back for me to feel comfortable doing it though, MLB has middle deep/short. If you can combine that with the two DTs stunting in the middle it’d be extremely confusing. And the best part? We account for our defiency in the run and have the perfect LB/FS/CB setup to run the zones it requires. The only thing that might be a problem is the man to man on the #2 receiver. It’d definitely be good against alot of the teams that are making the playoffs though. Not many of them are great passing teams.
Of course we use Tampa 2 vs Denver. But I think we could use it if we see the Ravens, Jets, Titans, Bucs, Vikings, Falcons, Panthers or Giants. Best CB (Hayden) mans on their second receiver, zone goes to their #1. Steelers might be tough because I don’t think we can man up on Holmes or Ward, and they use Washington more often now. But their line isn’t that great and we got to Ben last time anyway. Besides, their run game isn’t that great anymore.
http://huddleuponline.com/Huddlemain/html/under_3_buzz_play_.html
Thena after we draft a DT we can go back to normal. I know, just mindless rambling. But this stuff we’re pulling in the regular season won’t fly come playoff time. Even with Foster and Brackett back.
by monstersbox on Dec 19, 2008 7:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
IT IS NOT A BASE D
It is just a sub package, they use it like they would a blitz.
Clearly when the coaches put this in they realized they have no push up the middle in passing situations, so the solution became to have a DT stand up and he can pick the gap he wants to rush or drop in coverage. What I am saying is would it be more effective if we had a speed rusher doing this like a Freeney, Mathis or Howard. By no means am I saying switch to a 3-4, but we should take notes of what is effective and try to incorporate that into our Defensive scheme.
by canadiancolts on Dec 19, 2008 8:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
I believe Brock is perfect for this role, as he probably has better instincts whilst standing up than Freeney, whilst having more power than Mathis.
On his sack he waited half a second, saw a gap, and just powered his way through to the QB.
by furrycolt on Dec 19, 2008 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I understood what you were asking
And I was trying to give you the best answer I knew how: The Colts are not going to put Freeney or Mathis in a position to drop back into coverage. Brock has the best mix of size/speed/coverage skills of all the D-linemen. Mathis and Freeney do play DT from time to time, but I don’t ever think you’ll see them play the stand up and rush/coverage position.
by Nideak on Dec 19, 2008 9:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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