A Dungy question and a Saturday question
by Nideak on Feb 27, 2009 9:48 AM EST
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PrintHola! I has two questions. Both questions designed to spark some conversation and critical thinkings stuff. No one word answers. One word answers = GTFO LOSERS.
1) Does anyone else gt the feeling that Tony Dungy and the Colts organization knew well in advance of the playoff loss to SD that Dungy would be retiring at the end of this season? A few of Dungy's post-retirement quotes about how he was hoping during the season that he'd be able to ride off into the sunset in Tampa Bay really got this ball rolling in my head. Those statements, combined with the fact that this was the year ALL the hard decisions were made: bye, Ron Meeks, bye Russ Purnell, bye, Marvin Harrison, etc... Decisions that, right or wrong, Dungy had been criticized for being unwilling to make in the past, now all happen the year Dungy decided to retire. Any chance, from 0.01% on up, in any of your minds, that last year Jim Irsay, Bill Polian and Tony Dungy sat down and said, "Tony, we would really like you to open up the Luke for us. After that you can retire peacefully and let the retooling of the Colts begin?" Maybe not in those words, but I think most of us here would be confident in saying that a few of the changes that happened this year wouldn't have happened if Dungy was still the HC.
2) With Jeff Saturday deciding to avoid GTFO LOSER status by resigning with the Colts (please, no one say he came to his sense, Jeff, like every other player, wanted $$$$, and he became one of the highest paid centers in the league, so grats Jeff) and hearing him pine after playing guard, tackle, linebacker, assistant coach, waterboy, etc... for the Steelers, it got me wondering. With Lilja maybe done forever and the rest of the guards on the team looking a little shaky last year, what would you do with Saturday? Would you play him at center and try to find plugins around him at OG, or would you move him to OG, where he could still make line calls if needed, and let one of the young 3 (assuming Jamey Richard) get ready for the future? At first glance, I think having Saturday at C is the easy answer, but with the woes at guard, and the fact that Richard was better, imo, at C, than the other yahoos were at OG, I think the best OL lineup next year might have Richard at center and Saturday at guard. Thoughts?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors.
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They said after he retired
the Irsay had talked Dungy into staying another year, last year, and that he agreed not to try it again this year. To me that says there was at least an implicit agreement that it was Dungy’s last year.
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
You are kidding me right? Irsay (and the whole team and fans) appreciates Dungy a lot, and that “open the Luke, and then get the fuck out of here” is very stupid (no offense).
who said anything about ‘get the fuck out of here’ you illiterate moron. It was clearly Dungy that wanted to go, not them that wanted Dungy to go. INstead of being a fucking DEFEND THIS HOUSE OMG BLOOD PRESSURE RISING reject, why don’t you take a time out, breathe, and then come back with something else, for fuck sake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
It was just like: “"Tony, we would really like you to open up the Luke for us. After that you can retire peacefully and let the retooling of the Colts begin?” If you are more confortable with that, then be my guest, (it sounded something similar to me) maybe i exaggerated if you want, and of course Tony wanted to leave, who said the opposite? If you were offended by my comment, sorry
by BlueMark1821 on Feb 27, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Im not offended, I’m just trying to channel my inner King Richard. He and I are BFFs, and whenever someone says something I think is dumb, I’m just gonna be like him and cuss and flame them a lot.
I’m being serious btw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
winarrr
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
by KingRichard on Feb 27, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
Hm, this is an interesting take. I didn’t consider this. I’ll have to ponder over its finer points and get back to you on it.
In the meantime, what do you think about instead of maybe, ‘perhaps’?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
Possibly
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
by monstersbox on Feb 27, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Perchance
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Feb 27, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Pessimist
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Feb 27, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Naw...observationist :D
Ok, truce!
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Feb 27, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
LOL - You win!
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Feb 27, 2009 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
Pest :)
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Feb 27, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
by KingRichard on Feb 27, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Feb 27, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure I like Saturday moving to G
I still think you let it ride with either Pollack, Johnson, and Richard fighting for the two G positions. I would think they can only get better with all of them play G for the first time last year. Signing Saturday and having him continue to play C will give the line more flexibility and depth. I really do not think the Colts will draft an OT in the early rounds, if any at all. Johnson will be a reliable backup OT, and an more than capable G for the team. The signing of Saturday increased my confidence that the Oline will be better in the run game next year.
by ColtsFanNChiTown on Feb 27, 2009 1:59 PM EST reply actions
1) I think it’s highly probable that what you mentioned was the case. I love me some Tony D, but it almost felt like he overstayed his welcome. To me, it was fairly obvious that with the way he runs the show the Colts weren’t going to be multiple Super Bowl winners, for many reasons, some of which you eluded to. With Caldwell taking over and the hastily decisions he made towards replacing dead weight in the coaching staff, that tells me these were changes that were long overdue. Funny part is, most fans knew this too. Of course there was no way Irsay was going to fire Tony. If he did I think there would be riots downtown Indy demanding him to return because he was so admired by all the fans. But regardless, I’m anxious to this new era of Colts football hit the field.
2) I think the ideal scenario for the OL next season is — Ugoh, Richard/Pollack, Saturday, Richard/Pollack, Diem
In saying that, I think the Colts need to go OL (specifically OT) heavy again in the draft for some depth. It’s fairly obvious that Toudouze and Federkeil aren’t starter material and Diem needs to be replaced (hopefully by a stud OT in the draft). I mean, Pollack and Richard could become really good guards, and the possibility of Alex Mack being there at the 27th pick is highly possible. I’m not sure that’s something Polian would go for and have him learning under Saturday for the next couple years. I mean, Mack is getting so much hype about how he’s going to be a perennial pro-bowler and all that, I think it would be a mistake not drafting him at that pick, as opposed to oh, A GODDAMN WR. :(
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
just realized I was mispelling Pollak's name...woops
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
by KingRichard on Feb 28, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
haha
i did that all last year, then i looked it up and it was like, NO C? WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO C!
Anyhow, you know I agree with you about drafting a lot of OL this year. Heck, if they find a real LT, they could move Ugoh to guard! That would be great, imo, since he’s a good run blocker, he won’t have to worry about speed rushers, and he can get outside ok.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
How do you feel about Michael Oher?
There’s a decent chance he’ll be around at 27. While he’s obviously somewhat of a risk, the dude is talented. Would you take a chance on him if either Laurinaitis or Jerry is still around?
I think my order of preference would be Laurinaitis, Oher, then Jerry.
NFC North and NFC South writer for SB Nation's NFL Draft blog: Mocking the Draft
Jerry, Oher, Laurinatitis
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
Well considering he is worthy of being a top 15 pick, I think Polian would be nuttier than squirrel turds to pass on him. From what I’ve gathered he needs to work on his pass blocking and is superb in run blocking, which is a welcomed change from the situation the Colts are in now.
Of the three, I would take Oher first, then Laurinaitis. I’m against drafting Jerry because he isn’t the type of DT the Colts need. Foster and Dawson have proven themselves to be quite capable of playing the 3 technique in my opinion. They need a big run stuffer, which is why I think taking Ron Brace in the second is a far better idea than drafting Jerry in the first.
LB is a pretty big need as well, but this draft is pretty loaded with LB prospects. I think Wheeler is going to be a great addition to the starting lineup as the WILL. I think they mainly need to go for depth as opposed to spending a first round pick on a stud LB who probably won’t play that great starting out. Coyer’s defense is a lot different than that of Meek’s. He loves very fast and agile linebackers while at the same time having good size. Laurinaitis is a great linebacker, but his quickness is a liability in my opinion.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
I think Jerry is more McFarland than he is Foster
though the 3 have more in common than they do different.
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
The only reason
The only reason everyone keeps humping the analysis that Jerry is only a 3 technique is because they’re sheep. Don’t be a sheep.
Tank Johnson (Bears NT before going to Dallas) is 6’3 305. Tommie Harris is 6’3 295. Warren Sapp was 6’2 300. Pat Williams is probably the biggest T2 NT in a very long time at 6’3 317. If size were the only thing that mattered, we already have our NT with Muir and Johnson. And who says he can’t rotate? I think having Freeney, Johnson, Jerry, Brock on obvious running downs and Freeney Jerry Foster Mathis on obvious passing ones would be insane. Jerry could play NT on passing downs and UT on running. I’d take Jerry or Hood well before Brace. Raji of course is still the best at either. If we took Brace, he’d be off the field on passing situations. He’s great against the run but adds nothing for us against the pass, he’s too slow.
And I dunno, that Warren Sapp guy was a pretty nice NT in a T2. I’d rather have Warren Sapp over Shaun Rodgers on our line.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
1) Tank Johnson was never that good to begin with.
2) The best DT the Colts have ever had was Corey Simon, and he was 6 foot 320.
3) The Colts don’t need a pass rushing DT. As long as Freeney and Mathis are healthy, pass rush is the last thing the Colts defensive line needs to worry about. They need a run-stuffer, I thought this was pretty obvious?
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
A pass rushing DT
takes attention way from Freeney and Mathis or will get a one on one making the pass rush way better. Freeney and Mathis had great seasons, but no one else was getting pressure. Despite having 2 of the 3 AFC Pro Bowl ends, Indy was deep center in the league in sacks, and even lower in FO’s adjusted sack rate. You hated all those 3rd and long conversions? More pass rush is a solution.
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 2, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
*dead center of the league in sacks
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 2, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Again
Yet again you sum up my whole post in a paragraph.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
And P.S.
I agree 100%. We arguably have the best pass rush tandem in the league with Mathis and Freeney. Yet not many sacks. We have hurries, but I promise the sacks would go way up if we had a DT that could penetrate. Shortest distance between two points is a straight line. DTs are much closer to the QB than DEs. If they decide to double Mathis or Freeney and you have a player at Jerry/Hood caliber, that’d be a very poor decision. The only way to adjust would be to leave the TE in, which I don’t mind at all. Take the TE out of the scenario and that’s one less way to exploit our weakness at LB.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
we hit 'em on both fronts
I get the points and arguments out concisely, then if they don’t understand or buy some of it there’s a whole paragraph explaining further.
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 2, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Also, I thought it was kind of funny that all of the guys you mentioned as examples are all bigger than Jerry. Just thought I’d toss that out there.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Of course the site I was looking at didn’t update his info. Seems he put on about 9 pounds.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
No crap
Otherwise I wouldn’t have used them as examples. Hood and Jerry are both 300 lbs. Which, as I said, was basically the exact same size as Sapp.
And what do you mean they don’t need a pass rusher at NT and only need a run stuffer? Dude, seriously, you’re completely ignoring the fundamental concept of a T2. The purpose of a NT in a T2 system is to demand a double team. They have to not only be big enough and strong enough, but fast enough to put pressure on the QB. If all you do is fine the fattest dude you can, who can’t put any pressure on the QB because even if he does beat the one on one, he’s too slow to get there, then they won’t double team him. That does nothing for the ends. Freeney Johnson Jerry Brock is significantly, let me repeat, SIGNIFICANTLY better at stopping the run than Freeney Brace Foster Brock. The entire strong side, the side most teams run to, is still small. Not only that, but even if it’s playaction or just a pass when they predicted run, Jerry can still get to the QB whereas Brace probably wouldn’t be able to. Brace is a 3-4 NT.
With Brace, you take a significant hit to your speed, and he’s not even stronger than Hood is. He’s the same height as Hood and had 2 less reps in the bench. Hood is also .56 seconds faster than Brace. And that’s significantly faster.
You’re seriously putting way too much value on weight. Hood could gain 30 lbs, he actually played at 310 the year prior to this one, and be slower, and weaker.
I’d rather take Chris Baker over Brace. 4 lbs less than Brace but a half second faster in the 40. That’s a T2 NT. Not a guy that runs a 5.47. Big fat dudes can be slow in 3-4s and be fine. The LBs are the ones that are the pursuit against RBs and the QB. You can’t be slow in a T2, no matter which position you’re playing. DTs have to be able to pursue and have the athleticism and speed to react.
Your third point that all they need is Freeney and Mathis is funny. When Mathis was on the field, it was during “passing situations”. When it was a “running situation” Brock would be on. You agree that Brock is not as good a pass rusher but a better un stopper than Mathis correct? Jerry would not only be a much better run stopper than Foster, but arguably a better pass rusher. And on obvious passing situations, Freeney Jerry/Hood Foster and Mathis would be sick. However, they’re still good enough against the run that a draw wouldn’t totally screw them. In fact, with Hood/Jerry/, Freeney, Foster, Mathis’ speed, draws would probably fail at an epic level. If Brace was there, they’d do the exact same thing they do now. Brace won’t be moved from the LoS, but he won’t be in the backfield either. You get that with Hood/Jerry. Strength, speed, decent size, athleticism, ability to pursue, ability to react. You get size and strength with Brace. That’s it. Just because a guy is big doesn’t mean he fits the system and what we demand from our DTs.
Although Brace and Jarron Gilbert might be nice. You can get a Brace in the later rounds, you can’t get a Hood or a Jerry. Terrance Taylor, Dorell Scott, Terrance Knighton, Sammie Lee Hill, and Chris Baker are all guys over 310, have decent strength, and are all faster than Brace. And if you want to point to college production, well Brace had freaking Raji (who weighs more than him) right next to him. I’m not overly impressed by 10 TFL and 2.5 sacks if you have by far the best DT in the draft right next to you.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
I’m not over emphasizing anything. Especially when it comes to 2 reps on a bench press.
All I’m doing is reading the scouting reports about their strengths and weaknesses. Hood and Jerry’s weakness is against the run, specifically their technique against the run. Brace’s strength is against the run. The Colts weakness the past 4329583249582345 years has been defending the run. Therefore, a DT who would help against the run, along with some linebackers who aren’t whiffing on tackles every play, aren’t over pursuing, and aren’t just getting completely man-handled, will probably help. Is there something wrong in that?
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Jerry is a better fit for the scheme
and would improve both the run D and pass rush, while Brace is one dimensional and would be a 2 down player.
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
The 2 reps
Is indicative of his strength. He’s not only almost the same size, he’s just as strong or stronger, while being more athletic. Size, in terms of weight, is not the only factor when it comes to playing the line. So Hood gives up 30 lbs to Brace, but puts out 2 more reps on the bench. It offsets the 30 lbs. Not to mention physics. Hood and Jerry accelerate much faster while only giving up 30 lbs.
First you have inertia. Meaning it requires more energy, in this case strength, to move a heavier object at rest than a lighter one. Since defensive linemen are engaging players within a short distance, strength is directly correlated into how fast they can accelerate out of their stance and “explode” into the other linemen or completely avoid them. For Brace to be “stronger” than Hood (or Jerry but since he didn’t participate I have no numbers), he would have to be able to accelerate at about the same rate as Hood to achieve the same momentum and force. You’re looking for fast 10 yard dash times to show initial burst. And Brace actually made up time after 10 yards. Not to mention Hood squats 730 lbs and benches 475.
F = d(mv)/dt or a more simple equation of F = ma where m = mass and a = acceleration.
It’s pretty simple, Hood and Jerry’s impact at the point of attack would be higher. Now maybe if they do double team them, after stopping their momentum they’ll push them back, but it’s better than Brace being pushed back beyond the LoS and trying to muscle his way back to the line. I’d take a guy that gets into the backfield with strength being pushed back over a guy that’s heavy trying to push his way towards the line. Not to mention you have to watch out for various moves with people like Jerry and Hood. Brace isn’t going to try to spin, swim, rip etc. against you. You put your hands on him and get him before he comes out of his stance, he’s done. Hole right there.
I’m not normally a huge fan of 40 times, especially for linemen. I do like squat numbers, bench numbers, 10 yard split, vertical and broad jump though. Those are all indicative of explosion and being able to have initial push. Hood’s times were all extremely good. Aside from Brace’s 330 lbs, he was not impressive. Chris Baker and his 5.02, 35.5" vertical at 326 lbs is more impressive to me. Now that, I think, would be a decent 3rd or 4th round pickup.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
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