"But you guys think that when you’re not around that he’s opening up to everybody and I can promise you that you’re mistaken. He’s a quiet guy, but I know on the field that he’s second to [Jerry] Rice [statistically] and there’s no better receiver to me. This decade, it has been him. I’m biased as a teammate, but the reason I say that is that the corners tell me that. I always ask the corners over here, Aaron Glenn, Ty Law – they’re the ones who will tell you. Who do you not like to cover? "Marvin Harrison." I say why? "All his routes look the same over the first 10 yards," which to me is the ultimate compliment to a receiver. "In the first 10 yards, we can’t tell if he’s going to the post, to the sideline, back to the quarterback, we can’t tell. So the worst thing he can do is beat me deep." So what are they going to do? Back off, so they give you all the short routes. Then, the one time they think, "Oh, he’s going to run that hook route," they squat and he runs right by them.
So, to me, … that’s the ultimate compliment to Marvin."
Peyton Manning discussing Marvin Harrison, and reiterating what we have said (and what many other premiere NFL corner backs have said) for the past 11 years: Harrison is the best WR in NFL history not named Jerry Rice. Better than Moss, Owens, Holt, Ward, Bruce, or anyone else who is of his generation. The best, period. And yes, Peter King is still an idiot.
over 3 years ago
Brad Wells
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You tell 'em Peyton!
I love that he sticks up for Marv.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
Fine
Statistically he is. And in the minds of the people who know best (top-tier NFL corners), he’s right there. I’m curious to hear your opinion.
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Marvin and Rice are the only players in the top 5 all time in receptions, yards and TDs
Marvin is one of only two players to break one of Rice’s big 6 receiving records (career and season: receptions, yards, TDs)
I'm so fly,
I take this parachute off
I might fall and die
-Young Jeezy "Go Crazy"
by shake n bake on Feb 5, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
I would love to hear your argument on the contrary. This place needs a little more comedy.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
I'm glad I can be a passionate fan yet most cases, able to see things as they actually are
Harrison has built himself a Hall of Fame career, thanks to the aforementioned career numbers he’s accumulated. You can’t understate the effect playing with Peyton Manning and in a dome has had for his career, that helped boost him numbers by a good amount … but I wouldn’t overstate it too much neither, I think Harrison would have still put up numbers, arguably to the point of a Hall of Fame career still. He was undoubtedly one of the best receivers of his era, certainly.
But numbers only hold so much merit, merit of decreasing value by the way given the development in the league the last decade or so and especially towards the proliferation/emphasis of the passing game. Now there is one number/record that is of great merit and headlines Harrison’s HOF induction: the most receptions in a season record (143) however, because he obliterated the previous record set by Herman Moore (123) and it will likely stand for a good while. I would say a great while, but should the league soon move to a 18-game season, that would only hurt its chances I would think.
And the fact of the matter is Harrison is garbage in the postseason. Worthless. Putting up big stats against the Houston Texans is all well and good, but come playoff time, one corner after another shut him down and that’s why Peyton Manning couldn’t win a playoff game until he thankfully had Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark to pass the ball too. All the grief about Tom Brady’s receivers, and I’d gladly take David Givens or Deion Branch over Harrison in the postseason any day because either of those two could do something Harrison couldn’t: respectively, fight off man coverage and line up around the field to attack open zones. Thank goodness for Reggie Wayne.
First and most importantly foremost, to say flippantly that Harrison is better than some of the truly great players who played in the past, players like Lance Alworth, Steve Largent, and the Colts’ own Raymond Berry (definitely better than Harrison imo)? Well that’s just ignorant, to be frank.
Secondly, if you’re asking me who I’d rather take in their prime of just this era, two other Hall of Fame receivers of this era stand out immediately: Randy Moss and Terrell Owens. Don’t get me wrong, I understand this will spark debate because of the baggage and the disappointment both of those players have brought (and still bring in the case of TO). But as players, I consider them better. and even if their topsy-turny careers spanning three-teams-and-counting, never having played with anything close to the greatness of Peyton Manning, their numbers are just as good and could eclipse Harrison’s in due time. And Harrison, for all his wonderful practice habits and ability to avoid the media & trouble, isn’t exactly the greatest of teammates or immune to pouting at times himself.
Also, I’d probably include Hines Ward as well. He won’t ever put up close to the single-season statistics Harrison did, playing with the Steelers. The closest he may have came was probably the Tommy Gunn offense – seriously LOL! – with Tommy Maddox at QB passing the ball around. But he’s been a better player imo, performing and succeeding for as many years and counting. If Ward had played with Peyton, I think Ward would have close to the regular season statistics and better postseason statistics, honestly.
As to younger players knee-deep in their careers and still in the upswing, well obviously Larry Fitzgerald stands out. His teammate Anquan Boldin, who I consider the second-best receiver in football behind Fitz right now, has broken a number Harrison’s records so far in terms of receptions through this point in their careers. I wouldn’t call Boldin a HOF player yet though, much as I like the guy, he’s got a lot more to do.
"And the fact of the matter is Harrison is garbage in the postseason. Worthless."
FALSE
16 career playoff games. A full season’s worth. The line?
65 for 882 with 2 TDs.
TDs vary from season to season (just look at Clark, 11 last season, only 6 this year despite 25 more receptions and 200 more yards) so focusing on the yards and receptions. A season made up of his playoff games would rank better than 5 of his 13 seasons.
Not exactly shut down. Not his usual numbers, but the level of competition is a significant step up. Numbers go down in the playoffs because teams are better.
I’d gladly take David Givens or Deion Branch over Harrison in the postseason any day
Yes the great David Givens, who averages under 10 yards a catch in the playoffs, never topped 70 yards in the playoff game and averages less yards per game in the playoffs than Marvin.
and TO better?
They came into the league the same year!
Marvin has more receptions and yards and hasn’t been tossed out by 2 (likely soon to be 3) teams for being a lockerroom cancer. Moss took 2 seasons off while collecting a check because he didn’t like the team he had forced a trade to.
I'm so fly,
I take this parachute off
I might fall and die
-Young Jeezy "Go Crazy"
There was a good FO article on the Class of '97 receivers
I know you like FO, shake, as do I. I think it was in Pro Football Prospectus 2007, I’ll check when I get a chance. It was a good read.
I remember it kinda
and I just checked my PFP 08 that’s in my dorm room and it’s not there. So it’s definately in PFP07. I’ll re-check it out this weekend when I’m home.
I'm so fly,
I take this parachute off
I might fall and die
-Young Jeezy "Go Crazy"
I just find this funny
“fight off man coverage and line up around the field to attack open zones”
Tell me how you do man coverage AND zone and when has Marvin EVER be single covered in the playoffs? You can’t do man AND zone. That’s like saying you’re playing prevent quarters safe house blitz. Marvin is either double covered or, and yes I’ve seen it, triple covered.
You should’ve put this statement “Anquan Boldin, who I consider the second-best receiver in football behind Fitz” at the beginning of your post so I saved some time by not reading it. Boldin? Really? So if you had the choice between Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, or Steve Smith you’d take Boldin?
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
Boldin's awesome
But he’s no Calvin Johnson.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 5, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
That's my point
Calvin Johnson is crazy good. Boldin IS awesome, but he’s not even close to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNs5nlqylqY
The only reason Fitz is the best right now is because Calvin is on the Lions. I’m not taking anything away from Fitz, because he’s a phenom, but Johnson is sick. Boldin is in the Greg Jennings category. Very very good, but not “HOLY CRAP DID YOU SEE THAT?!” 10+ times a year.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
Boldin isn’t even a #1 receiver, let alone a top 10 receiver, or even worth mentioning in the same sentence as Marvin Harrison (woops).
I’m just glad the guy didn’t fail to amuse me. Nice try bra, maybe you should do stand-up comedy? Just a thought.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Try reading it properly first
David Givens or Deion Branch over Harrison in the postseason any day because either of those two could do something Harrison couldn’t: respectively, fight off man coverage and line up around the field to attack open zones
The word “respectively” designates the first attribute to the first person listed and the second attribute to the second player listed. Amazing, I know.
What makes you think Marv couldn't line up anywhere but his normal side
as opposed to the Colts didn’t put him anywhere else because that’s their style not to move guys.
If anything that the Pats moved Branch around cheapens his playoff numbers. It showed that he got to go up against inferior cover guys and that teams didn’t respect him enough to adjust.
I'm so fly,
I take this parachute off
I might fall and die
-Young Jeezy "Go Crazy"
Nitpick
If you really want to to nitpick like that, then “respectively” should have been placed at the end of your phrase.
by TouchdownMonkey on Feb 5, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
If it's any consolation
I absolutely agree Keyshawn Johnson is a punk who was never once as good as Marvin Harrison. Perhaps Peter King should remember that Monday Night Football game, btw.
Before you go slamming Project Geo too much, slow down and think
Be calm and detached from this situation, just for a second. There are some people on this board that have a very high football IQ, I think they need to use it, just for a second. Where was Marvin in those Patriots games, or the Pittsburgh game? How many interceptions in the post season has Manning thrown, but have been Harrison’s fault? Now, think for a second. I’m talking about every Ty Law interception where Harrison/Manning were running a read route and Law would constantly bait Harrison in to running a different route than he should have. I’m talking all of those comeback route interceptions where Harrison stopped coming back to the ball and let the CB snatch it from him.
I love Marv. But for whatever reason the guy has disappeared for long stretches in the playoffs. I consider this a slightly different phenomenon than Manning’s stats being worse, because, as shake pointed out, Harrisons numbers are, like, what, 1/2 of a normal season for him in post-season play? I don’t like Michael Irvin, but he always came up big during their playoff runs. Now, he was as coke head and a loser, but I’m nmot getting into any of that.
Marvin Harrison is clearly a first ballot hall of famer, and he’s the #2 WR of all time in my book, but I do think he’s diminished slightly by what he’s been unable to do in the post season. He’s still the best receiver of his era, however, because Randy Moss disappears for long stretches, as well, and Owens is a freakin’ nutjob with 25 million reasons to live.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
it was 200 yards below his average season
~900 vs ~1,100
I'm so fly,
I take this parachute off
I might fall and die
-Young Jeezy "Go Crazy"
Everyone is entitled to their opinion
And I’m not expecting anyone to agree with me, more importantly I absolutely don’t care if they do or don’t.
Do I think Harrison is a first-ballot Hall of Fame receiver? Yes, I do.
Do I think Harrison is the second-best receiver all-time? Hell no.
Yes, I agree
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, when corners like Ty Law are calling Marvin one of the greatest ever, everyone else’s opinion kind of gets muted.
SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account and post a diary, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.
Marv vs Randy or Terrell
The thing is, Marvin was ALWAYS there. Playoffs excepted (more below), he didn’t disappear for games, didn’t take plays off. Year in, year out, what team has been the most productive and consistent for the past decade? Name two of the players on the team for all that time. Manning and Harrison. They contributed to each other’s greatness. Yes the dome helps—ask Mike Vanderjagt.
If we had Moss or Owens during that time, would they still be on the team? Would they have caused rifts, been suspended, quit on plays, etc? We all know the answer.
On one or two plays this year it looked to me as if he didn’t make an effort on INT balls. I won’t deny that. It hurt to see. You know why we remember all his fumbles? Because they were to rare that they stand out. The fact that one happened in the 07 playoffs and one in the 08 opener makes it easier to remember too.
On any given play, I would agree that Owens and Moss are physically his better—bigger, stronger, maybe faster. With the ball in the air 10 yards away, I’d take them because they are physically better. With the ball on their fingertips, I’d take Marvin. And as Manning and the DBs say, in the first ten yards of a route, I’d take Marvin too. So where it really matters, the start and the end of a pass play, I’d take Marvin over Owens or Moss. (Leave the kids out of this for now—Andre and Calvin Johnson, Boldin, Fitz, etc)
He plays a little more passively than I like, but that has helped him always be there, generally injury-free since 1996. Until the leg injury last year, he had missed all of four games his entire career—that, too, has value. Even if he is not 100% on the field, he had formerly drawn 2 defenders, opening up the rest of the firld for the other receivers and RBs. Rather than being suspended or sitting on the sidelines riding a bike.
In the playoffs, there is context to be addressed. Yes, Marv’s numbers are down. So are Peyton’s, Edge’s… the whole team. And as you know, it’s a team game. As we learned in 2006, despite a HOF QB, what this team really needs on offense is balance. Remember that nearly all the away playoff games were in bad weather when most any passing game will falter. And most of the time in losses, unfortunately, our O was one-dimensional (Edge vs NYJ in 2002: 13 yards on 9 carries) putting more pressure on the remaining pieces that work. We were outcoached in 2003 when the Pats hammered our guys and we kept expecting flags. When they didn’t come, we had no plan B. Maybe a more physical receiver would have been able to thrive in that climate. Hard to say; Pollard was a pretty big guy and he had problems breaknig free as I recall.
I’d love to see how the other guys do in the playoffs vs their regular season production. Keep in mind that they are not likely to have as many games in the playoffs—which itself is a thing of value, no?
I like to think I am a realist. If there is a jump ball in the middle of the field, I would not think of Marvin first. If there is a ball thrown one foot OB and you need a pirouette to tap it back in while keeping toes in, he’s your man. If you need a double-move juke, he’s as good as any. If you need a diving catch, same thing. Racking up the YAC… generally no. (of course, they gotta catch it, first, before the YAC comes). And remember, he’s always there. NO petulance, no excuses, no suspensions, no quitting, no complaints (except he wants more balls—big surprise), and usually no injuries.
If I needed one guy for one play, I’d probably take Moss. For one playoff game… Moss. If I needed one guy for a whole season or career, Marvin. I’m a long-term investor, so for me the answer is Marvin.
Bobman
My only problem with Marvin is this, and I know you alluded to it, but I’m going to mention it anyhow, because it will let people say, zomg you only remember whats recent!
Marvin has never had a game, let alone a series of 4 games, like Larry Fitzgerald. Now, I don’t think its an unfair comparison to make, because we’re all in agreement that Harrison is top 5, if not top 2, all time as far as WRs go. Warner sucked in the playoffs, imo. A flea flicker against Atlanta, I think, or was it Philly, Warner threw it short and outside, and Fitzgerald made one of the best mid-air adjustments, catches, come to the grounds and run you’ll see. Against Carolina he was doubled and consistently beat it. He was stronger, faster, and more hungry than anyone else out there. i agree that over the course of his career there has been only 1 better than Marvin, but at some point shouldn’t he have said, to hell with Peyton’s bad throws or Edges bad YPC, and just taken over a game? He hasn’t done that. I could say Dallas Clark has done that. Peyton has certainly done that. I’m not sure if Reggie has, you guys can be the judge. I think Stokes had games like that, Gonzo is too young to judge on this ‘take over the game’ factor. I also think Dom and Joe have shown the ability to, as a tandem, take over a game when the rest of the team was sputtering. I guess someone will point to one of the broncos games as a game where Marvin just took over, but its not like the rest of the team was struggling that day. I dunno. We’re splitting hairs here. His career is, for the most part, at its end, whats done is done, and he is, clearly, a hall of famer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
Jerry Rice never had as big a series of games as Fitz did
He broke the record. He was insane all the way through.
I'm so fly,
I take this parachute off
I might fall and die
-Young Jeezy "Go Crazy"
Not to put to fine a point on it
But while Rice may not have had a series of playoff games like Fitz’s series of games, he has certainly come up huge in the playoffs.
When you can put together Super Bowls with lines like 11 rec, 215 yds, 1TD – 7 rec, 148 yds, 3 TDs – 10 rec, 149 yds, 3 TDs, you take a back seat to nobody, not even the current flavor of the month (who is obviously supremely talented).
I gotta add, I love Marvin. No question he’s a 1st ballot guy. But project geo and Nideak make excellent points. Looking at the individual playoff games and not just the aggregate totals, we see that his only 2 playoff TDs came in one game: the 2005 blowout of Denver. He had 7 rec, 133 yds, 2 TDs. In his other 15 playoff games he never had a 100-yd game, never had more than 6 catches, and never scored a TD.
I’m not trashing Marvin, he’s clearly one of the all time greats. But to say that he disappears in the postseason is, in my estimation, a fair comment.
disappears is totally unfair
underperforms is true. But if just under 900 yards in a season worth of games is disappearing Marv disappeared for his first 3 seasons and the last two.
I'm so fly,
I take this parachute off
I might fall and die
-Young Jeezy "Go Crazy"
Considering the fact
That Marvin Harrison, and the Colts in general, faced better defenses overall (Patriots, Steelers, Chargers, Ravens, Chicago etc..) I’d have to say that any person who went up against those would have significantly lower post season numbers. The AFC has been the powerhouse division the past decade with the best defenses.
And if I recall, Fitz didn’t do jack shit until the 4th quarter. And it was a blown read by the corner. He was supposed to trail him across the field and the safeties were in deep coverage. He is awesome, but even Fitz was shut down for the majority of the game. Take away the completely blown coverage and wooo, he had 60 yards.
As to Deion Branch, woo, 0, 48, 48, 36,15 ,10, 23. Those are his receiving numbers in games he didn’t go over 100 yards. So out of 11 games, 7 of them he had less than 50 yards. And 2 of the 4? Yep, NFC teams.
And David Givens? You’re straight stupid if you think that’s a good comparison. 3, 54, 26, 59, 19, 26, 68, 69. Yep, those are his totals from every playoff game he’s been in. 8 games, 324 yards. I guess that’s vastly superior to Harrison.
And Jerry Rice had 3 yards less per game in the playoffs than he did for his career. Does that mean he “was garbage in the postseason”? And that’s including his craptastic final 2 seasons.
By the way, all you losers who want to say Harrison’s done because of his injury. Yeah, Jerry Rice had his fucking injury when he was 35 and came back and played 7 seasons. So please, kindly remove your head from your ass.
Shake, the majority of this wasn’t against you, it’s against the fools who are dogging Harrison, but I think you got that.
And if you want to accuse and INT of being Harrison’s fault, stand back from stroking Reggie Wayne for a second and realize, OMG he did the exact same thing?! You don’t say?! Or what about the Manning perfect pass that Wayne dropped after he was hit? Or Dallas completely dropping a TD pass with NOBODY around him? You see me dogging those guys? Nope, because you don’t completely throw someone under the bus when they don’t live up to YOUR expectations. If what you guys are saying about Marvin holds any water whatsoever, you also have to say “Reggie Wayne sucks balls in the playoffs. Dallas Clark chokes left and right.” Or, since you want to throw out Marvin’s numbers from the Denver game, go ahead and take away the 221 yards and 2 TDs from Reggie. Or you can keep cherry picking stats to try to make your point, whatever makes you feel better. Just saying, that’s not an unbiased observation.
Just wondering, who exactly “showed up” in the playoffs if your point is that Marvin didn’t? I’d like to know, seriously. The only one off the top of my head that probably did better in the playoffs than the season, was Clark. So please, enlighten me. Because obviously Peyton is no longer to blame for anything, it’s completely Marvin’s fault. The other 21 members of the team showed up, and Marvin made a side bet with a bookie to screw us out of rings.
Pretty easy to scapegoat someone, especially after a down year.
I’m seriously disappointed in some of you. Disappointed and shocked.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
Actually, not "majority" none of it was, my fault
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
how did fitzgerald do against the steelers? how about the eagles, one of, if not the best, defense in the NFC?
I’m still on the disappears bandwagon. Do we throw out the last 2 years, because of injury?
How did Harrison do in the playoffs in 2006? I don’t remember much in 2005. In 2004 he had a good game. In 2003 he had 2 good games.
My memory gets fuzzy before that, but its hard to judge since it was just a series of one game playoffs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
Fitz
Didn’t do shit until the Steelers completely blew a simple coverage scheme. He had 60 yards until that play.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
It just takes one play either way...
and that other TD grab he had was just a matter of he wanted it more…still came up big down the stretch.
by ColtsFanNChiTown on Feb 5, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
so coming up huge in the 4th quarter is worse than not coming up at all?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
Come on man, you know exactly what his point is. Fitz disappeared the entire Super Bowl until the defense completely blew their coverage. It wasn’t because Fitz just owned them with his leet skills and all that crap.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Look, I had a huge post typed out countering what you said, but its pointless. I’m not anti Marvin Harrison. I don’t hate him. I don’t want him cut (but I don’t want him on the Team at 13 million per). I’ve made my feelings known on the matter, its fine. Not like we’re gonna change the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
Lotta anger
when somebody criticizes Marvin, which I understand. But it doesn’t change the truth. To be clear, I don’t agree with a lot of what was written in this thread. However, the fact that Marvin tends to disappear (or, if you prefer, seriously underperform) in the playoffs remains.
Yes, the competition is stronger in the playoffs. It’s stronger for everybody. It’s not like the Colts are the only team that has had to face elite defenses in the playoffs. Some receivers (like Rice in my example) deal with it, some don’t (I don’t see a 3-yd drop in production as particularly significant, esp. when you look at some of the games where he carried his team). Apart from one good game out of 15, Marvin has been largely pedestrian in the biggest games.
And I know I’m combining a Shake argument with one of yours here, but this is what I’m talking about: Shake says it’s “totally unfair” to say that Marvin disappears in the playoffs and cites 900 yds in a season’s worth of games. Then you say that if you take away the blown coverage on Fitz, he only had 60 yds, which you characterize below as “didn’t do shit.” Well, if you take 60 yds and multiply it by 15 games, you get – that’s right – 900 yds. So while Fitz “didn’t do jack shit,” Marvin was just underperforming with the same numbers.
But you can’t do that anyway; the 4th quarter counts too. Fitz did make the play and almost won the biggest game for his team. If you took away Marvin’s biggest play in any game his numbers would look worse as well. If you took away the Baltimore game, how would his season have looked?
I will state again that I love Marvin and consider him a 1st ballot HOFer. But that does not mean that he is God or perfect or immune from criticism. And the fact as I see it is that aside from one game out of 16, Marvin has disappointed in the playoffs. Call it underperforming or disappearing or not doing jack shit or whatever you want, it doesn’t change the numbers.
See, this is where you and I differ on this. For the most part, I understand the argument about Harrison’s numbers not being up to snuff compared to other greats; but should it really matter? It doesn’t to me. I just can’t stand when people single others out and say, “SEE! SEE! HE DIDN’T PLAY THAT GOOD! SEE SEE!!!1111” That crap drives me nuts. If the entire Colts team could perform above average (to their standards) for an entire game, the Colts would have 4 or 5 different rings right now. The problem is, they didn’t.
Looking back at some of the playoff losses, would it have mattered if Marvin put up insane numbers? Would it have mattered in 2002 when the Colts lost by 40 points, if Marvin had 9 for 170 and 3 tds? No. Would it have mattered in the two playoff losses against the Pats if he even had 6 receptions for 100 yards and a td? No. What about the Steelers game? Sure, it would have been nice if Marvin had 2935825 receptions and 19845129848 yards with a 100 tds, but it’s kind of hard for your star receiver to blow up if Peyton can’t even drop back in the pocket long enough for him to throw the ball, let alone allow Harrison to get open.
Basically what I’m saying is, it’s just a ridiculous argument in the first place. Yeah Harrison’s post-season numbers are insane, but who gives a shit? The team still has their championship. The team still has all of those insane records. Why can’t that be good enough?
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Meant to say his post-season numbers AREN'T insane.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
I’d like to also add, that this is yet another reason for people who like to look at things from a different perspective (aka perception and not reading stat lines) to hate people who use stats to argue their point. If you take into account the examples I listed above, it wouldn’t have mattered in the end. Racking up post-seasons stats doesn’t mean anything if you can’t go on to win the Super Bowl. Therefore, the only receiver in history who is better than Harrison, is Rice, period.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
My point is
The ENTIRE team dissapeared in the playoffs. I didn’t say “he did phenomenal”, I was saying that yes, he didn’t play up to his usual play, but nobody else did either.
If you want to compare numbers, here’s a couple of the “best receivers of the decade”.
Marvin Harrison – 16 games, 882 yards, 55.125 ypg
And this is if you even want to include his “return” last year.
Randy Moss – 11 games, 817 yards, 74 ypg
Sounds pretty good eh? Ok, well let’s look at his playoff games with NE after his record setting year.
NWE vs JAX – 1 reception, 14 yards
NWE vs SDG – 1 reception, 18 yards
NWE vs NYG – 5 receptions, 62 yards
That’s coming off a 1500 yard, 23 TD season. And the last time he had an impressive post season game was in 2001 vs the Saints. And, as I pointed out, NFC teams were his only good games.
Terell Owens – 11 games, 751 yards 68 ypg
And his years with Dallas?
DAL vs NYG – 4 receptions, 49 yards
DAL vs SEA – 2 receptions, 26 yards
Torry Holt – 10 games, 630 yards, 63 ypg
Isaac Bruce – 9 games, 759 yards, 84.3 ypg
Hines Ward has probably been one of best this decade
14 games – 1064 yards, 76 ypg
Had a 2 reception 10 yard game vs Cincinatti.
So what’s my point? Well, the majority of the “dominant” receivers do significantly worse in the playoffs than they do in the regular season. The difference is, the majority of the time those receivers have another chance to come back after a poor game and don’t dead end after a poor performance. For as much attention as he was given up until the past two seasons (and he still had double coverage a good bit), the other receivers should have skyrocketed. Great receivers bring much more to the table than individual stats. If they have to double, or triple him, the stress on the other receivers should have been less, and the running game should have benefitted. Which, if you look at the other receivers, it did.
Reggie Wayne – 13 games 963 yards, 74 ypg
Dallas Clark – 9 games, 668 yards, 74 ypg
Anthony Gonzalez – 2 games, 176 yards, 88 ypg
Brandon Stokley – 6 games, 56 ypg
Edge – 9 games, 612 rushing 68 ypg, 222 rec yds 25 ypg (93 total)
Addai – 6 games, 381 rush, 63.5 ypg, 213 rec yds 35.5 ypg (99 total)
Rhodes – 11 games, 374 rush 34 ypg, 85 rec yds 8 ypg (42 total)
Rhodes/Addai – 5 games, 656 rush 131.2 ypg, 216 rec 43.2 (174.4 tot)
Not to mention the miscellaneous receivers throughout the years.
So, what can we glean from this? Game plans were adjusted to account for the double/triple coverage against Harrison. It was pretty obvious watching the games at the time that they were attempting to spread the ball out as teams focused on stopping the run and stopping Harrison. They allowed passes to be completed to other targets because they figured the way to beat the Colts, was to attempt to shut Harrison down. Essentially Harrison occupied between 2-3 defenders and the burden of winning and producing fell upon the other members of the team. Who, while generally exceeding their regular season and career outputs, still failed to “take over a game”. I clearly remember drops/giving up by Wayne and Clark and others. It’s pretty unrealistic to want Marvin to occupy multiple defenders and still put up crack numbers. If they HAD only single covered him and doubled others his numbers WOULD be significantly better. The Colts also gave up significantly more sacks from blitzes in the playoffs. Pretty hard to get the ball even if a dude is wide open if you’re being sacked. Just because they game planned specifically to take Marvin out of the game doesn’t make him less of a player in my eyes. All it does is reinforce the fact that this is a TEAM game, and the Colts, as a TEAM didn’t make the plays when they should have.
Hines Ward has great postseason numbers because people don’t gameplan to stop him. When people gameplan to stop a specific receiver you get T.O. and Randy Moss subpar performance. And the reason those teams lost was because the other players didn’t come up when the game plan was forced to be changed to circumvent what the defense was giving them. And allowed them to go onto the next week and have another chance at improving their numbers. Even Jerry Rice, for all his accomplishments, had 47, 6, 36, 48, 36, 43, 54, 55, 28, 48, 45 yard games but the rest of the team stepped up and took what was given to them. To put that into perspective, if you recognize the physical and mental struggles between both Manning (this year sync wise) and Harrison (sync wise this year, missed 4 months last), he’s had 48,45, 41, 44, 19 and a 47 yard game.
I guess in a way, you’re saying, aside from Manning, Harrison is BY FAR the best player on the team and we can’t win playoff games without him. Because obviously, the rest of the team isn’t up to the task of picking up the slack when the Colts and Manning are forced to go someplace else other than Marvin. So I demand Marvin plays on the O-line while at the same time going out to catch some balls. And then he can kindly ask Wayne and the rest of the crew to kindly step it up so he can start seeing some softer schemes. It’s kind of a conundrum.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
OK I've got some time
There seems to be some sort of cognitive dissonance going on here. It can be simultaneously true that Marvin is a great player overall and yet has had a poor playoff record. I will state again that I love Marvin. I am not a Marvin hater. But I do not think he’s immune from criticism or that he has no accountability for his playoff record.
I’ll try to be brief in my arguments. First, for most of his career, Marvin HAS been BY FAR the best player on the team aside from Manning. We’re talking about him as perhaps the 2nd best WR all-time right? Who else (besides Peyton) on the Colts in the last decade or so would you put in the category of one of the 2 best ever at his position? However, your logical leap that I would therefore argue that the team can’t win a playoff game without him or that he should single-handedly win games is ridiculous. Nobody, least of all me, has or would ever make such an argument.
Football is a team sport; of course it matters how teammates perform. But there’s a chicken/egg thing going on too: does Marvin underperform in playoff games because the rest of the team does as well, or does the rest of the team underperform at least in part because their HOF WR doesn’t show up – thereby removing a big part of the Colts’ playbook. FWIW, I believe it’s a little of both. In a team sport if one area breaks down, others usually follow. I have never said that the Colts’ playoff failures were Marvin’s fault, but I think it’s absolutely fair to say that he has at least been part of the problem, as have others.
And yes, he gets double and triple-teamed in the playoffs. As does almost every great WR in the playoffs. And as he does in the regular season. Defenses are better in the playoffs. Again, some overcome it, some don’t.
A lot of what you’re saying seems to be reasons why Marvin underperforms in the playoffs, rather than arguing whether or not he underperforms. I agree with these reasons, but point out that they could be applied to almost any great WR. You’ve given some examples of a few others who have underperformed in the playoffs and concluded that “the majority of ‘dominant’ receivers do significantly worse in the playoffs….” I’m not going to go too stat-geeky here (I know it can be tiresome to many, including me). But given that we’re talking about Marvin as one of the few elites, I decided to look at a few other elites from relatively recent history. My purpose here is not to get into a stat smack-down, so I have to draw the line somewhere. As such I will keep it simple and only use two widely acknowledged “measuring sticks”: 100-yd games and TDs. Here’s what I found in the playoff records of some HOF WRs:
Michael Irvin : 16 games, 6 – 100 yd games, 8 TDs
Steve Largent: 7 games, 2 – 100 yd games, 4 TDs
James Lofton: 12 games, 3 – 100 yd games, 9 TDs
Art Monk: 15 games, 4 – 100 yd games, 7 TDs
Lynn Swann: 16 games, 2 – 100 yd games, 9 TDs
Charlie Joiner: 9 games, 2- 100 yd games, 5 TDs
and
Marvin: 16 games, 1 – 100 yd game, 2 TDs
Which one would you say is not like the others? And believe me, opposing defenses threw extra attention at all of these players, not just at Marvin. Let me reiterate that I know these stats are limited and do not tell the full story. But given that a game by game analysis of every stat and every play a playoff WR made is something nobody cares to do, I chose a couple of simple but important ones.
Ultimately, I agree with King Richard: who gives a shit? Marvin’s career IS good enough. Probably the second best WR career ever. Definitely 1st ballot HOF. But the philosopher in me has to respond when I think that logical mistakes are being made. For me it boils down to this: for reasons that I think we largely agree on, Marvin has underperformed in the playoffs. My difference with you is that you seem to think of these reasons as insurmountable obstacles that any WR would succumb to. I agree that many have succumbed in such situations, but point out that many truly great (in this example other HOF WRs) have not.
It is no shame and not hating to say that Marvin’s career – while brilliant – is not perfect. If there is an Achilles Heel in the evaluation of his career, it is the playoffs. But we may have to agree to disagree about this one.
Peace
I'll finish reading this tomorrow
And formulate a complete response, but I just wanted to point out that the reason I used receivers in the past decade or so, or the ones that played the majority of their careers was because of free agency. Free agency has had a huge impact on the balance of teams, my point of pointing out the teams they’ve faced. They’re ones that haven’t been as consistently good as the Colts, but have been some of the best when they played the Colts.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
Always interested in your thoughts
I chose the recievers I did because we’re talking about Marvin’s place among the all -time greats, so I chose all time greats; i.e HOFers. I kept with the most recent ones to avoid the mess of comparing eras as much as possible. I would say however that there is probably no perfect analogy.
Gosh, we all know that Fitz is an awesome receiver
even my mom was impressed with him, but Marv is a HOFer and a top 5, or even top 3 receivers of all time. We all know that he wasn’t/ isn’t the most physical or strongest wide receiver, like Fitz, but when you need someone for crucial play in the game; #88 was that man, and maybe he still is. I can’t wait until next season to start so that this debating about Marvin be done can finally be settled once and for all. He and Peyton will be able to work together in next season’s training camp and preseason, and hopefully we’ll see at least 85% to 99.9999999999999999% of the Marvin of old, and not an old Marvin.
I think what serperates Harrison from all other WRs besides Rice has been his consistency. You can say that Fitz or A. Johnson are “better”, but whether they can stay consistent with their play every year for over 10 Yrs is something that they will have to prove just like Harrison has already done. At barely 6’0, Harrison is not going to razzle and dazzle people with his leaping ability while grabbing jump balls like Fitz, but his route running, great hands (some say they are like ninja hands), and consistency is what makes him a Hall of Famer. Im not sure what the whole argument is, but Harrison has been great with the Colts and again, its sickening how a person who votes players into the Hof can question anything he has done throughout his career.. I can’t say he’s the best WR on the team, but he still has those reliable hands and great route running which is all you can ask for at his age.
by ColtsFanNChiTown on Feb 5, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Randy Moss
I believe Randy Moss is the most gifted reciever of all time.
Nobody could take over a game like he could in his prime.
He has a 51 inch vertical, 4.25 Forty.
The 23 Touchdown season.
His career numbers have nothing on marvin or rice.
BUT just watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE8sJI7PxQU
The greatest athlete in NFL history?
forget all the off the field garbage the dude could ball.
http://www.irun.com/users/6967/downloads/Jays%20Win%20Back-to-Back%20World%20Series.mp3
by torontocoltsfan on Feb 5, 2009 10:07 PM EST reply actions
Measuring Moss... "giving up on balls"... and taking over a game.
Not to mention that when he has a competent QB, who is not necessarily God-like without Randy (look at their career numbers) they repeatedly put up career-best seasons, sometimes all-time best seasons, throwing to Randy. Culpepper’s 2004, Brady’s 2007. The resurrection of Randall Cunningham (or Jeff George? Or both?)
Yes, the bastard is good.
Monstersbox, I completely forgot that I saw Reggie appear to give up on a couple passes this year too (INTs? I cannot recall). But they were plays where, on review, I screamed at the TV “why the hell didn’t you do anything?” supportive, sympathetic, understanding sort that I am. Frankly, I have hardly watched anyone other than Indy for a decade now, so my league-wide football IQ is pretty low. What do other elite receivers do? Okay, I know Steve Smith punches guys and Burress shoots himself. But what do other top WRs do when a pass is not there, or when it gets picked?
As for “taking over a game” or a series of games, I guess I’d have to go back to the 2002 season (the 143 catch year) when Marv probably did, but I really do not recall (so I’ll rely on stats without much context). I do know that that year they ‘d essentially put 3 guys on him near the end and he pulled down 143 anyway—isn’t that one type of “taking over” for a whole season? LIke a running team running anyway—and winning—despite 8 in the box? When the D says “we are not going to let 88 beat us” and 88 beats them, that’s a prety good indicator. And it was a whole season, no? There were two (separate—no overlap) four-game stretches where he averaged 10 recs and 137 yards and 125 yards per game, and a 7-game span (overlapping one of the above) in which he averaged 9.7 receptions and 123 yards per game. Weirdly low TD totals that season, considering….
Run support that season was low and the reason Manning had to rely on 88—on those three streaks above, Edge averaged 82 yards (3.5 YPC), 85 yards (3.6), and 63 yards (3.5). Rhodes was IRed and Edge still recovering, so the opponents knew what was coming and could not stop it.
That’s pretty dominant, no?
Bobman
I'll never forget
The play when they triple covered him, I’m not kidding they had 3 guys on him, and he did this SICK triple juke and beat them. He pulled off 3 moves within 1 second it seemed about 15 yards down the field and got completely wide open. He did a post, to a flag, back to a post and all three guys bit to the inside. I still think it’s the sickest route I’ve ever seen. I was shocked. And this was when in 2005 I believe or 2006 so it’s not like he was making a name for himself.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
omg Bobman, I’m with you on Reggie giving up on Balls.
There were two in the wildcard game against SD. One where he should have caught it, but didn’t really extend and it just went off his finger tips, and another where he just didn’t seem to run the route out.
There was another against… uhm, was it the lions? Where Peyton finally threw a perfect deep ball and Reggie just like stopped running and then decided, oops, i better run?
There were a couple more… I spend every game on the phone bitching and whining like a 13 year old girl with my dad and I remember on more than one occassion giving Reggie the WTF was that? treatment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
If it wasn't for
Who was it, Towsend? Anyway, if it wasn’t for the Steeler DB totally botching the INT, the long TD to Wayne wouldn’t have happened. And Reggie would’ve been close enough to break it up, but he was just chilling in the background. It ended up working out because he was there for the TD, but that was a fluke play in our favor after Reggie gave up on trying to break it up.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
That's my point
That’s my point, we expect great things from Marvin so if he doesn’t WOW us we’re ticked. But since Reggie played second fiddle to Marvin for most of his career, we overlook him doing the same, or worse, and only focus on the upside.
And specifically regarding the playoffs (I don’t suggest watching the entire stream if you don’t want to be depressed, I did awhile back and was so ticked that stupid stuff caused the loss), yes Marvin had a fumble, but in fairness, he missed almost the entire season, but:
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d805f4a5c
1:30 mark – Wayne tip INT – Granted it was thrown high and slightly behind
4:20-end – Wayne got blasted, ball in his hands but he got hit so hard it popped out, Dallas was the “Face in the hands, shake your head” moment.
And yep, the WC game Wayne “lost” a ball in the lights that definitely would’ve been a TD. And the 14 yard reception. I’m just saying the Marvin ones standout so much because they’re SO atypical of him.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
Why, OH WHY, did I watch that highlight video. sob :(
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
I know right?
Don’t even touch the 2005 Steelers game if you value your sanity. DON"T DO IT!
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
couldnt agree more
marvin made the illest catch of all time in a 2003 game vs the titans, diving one handed. and yes i could not agree more, peter king is a complete idiot.
And my picture should be in the dictionary
next to the definition, of definition
-Lil Wayne "Shoot Me Down"
"Shaqtastic - 29 points"
gas prices are as high as Micheal Phelps
yo
And my picture should be in the dictionary
next to the definition, of definition
-Lil Wayne "Shoot Me Down"
"Shaqtastic - 29 points"
gas prices are as high as Micheal Phelps
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