So, why did Terrell Owens sign faster than Marvin Harrison did?
by BigBlueShoe on Mar 11, 2009 12:26 PM EDT
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Please permit me to be the last to comment on the charade that is Terrell Owens signing a (snicker) one year deal with the Buffalo Bills. I felt the need to wait until all the Bills, Cowboys, and Eagles fans had their says first. Yeck, I figured the 49ers fans also had a few choice words for ole TO. For us Colts fans, TO signing anywhere outside the AFC South registers about a zero on the "We give a sh*t" radar.
Some suggested the Colts would sign Owens. Um, the Colts cut their best defensive tackle (Ed Johnson) last year two weeks into the season because he was caught smoking weed. I shudder to think what Bill Polian would do to TO the second he tried one of his media stunts. Can someone be stabbed to death with a Sharpie?
Anyway, the only possible reason I could think of to bring up the old and useless WR that is Terrell Owens is his connection to Marvin Harrison. Marvin is, of course, better than TO. I'm sure some would disagree with me, and those some probably thought stock in Citibank was a good idea a few months ago. Fact is Marvin catches the ball better, is faster, run better routes, wins more games, and is a better teammate. Both men were drafted in the same year (1996) and both men were cut from high profile teams this off-season; though the reasons for cutting both men were different. Marvin was cut because his salary cap hit would have been $13 million in 2009. The Colts worked to restructure his deal, like San Diego did with LaDanian Tomlinson, but both sides could not work anything out. As for TO, he was cut because he is an ass. It's the third time he's been dumped by a team because of his attitude.
Photo: 2.bp.blogspot.com
Yet, despite his cancerous presence in locker rooms and his over-rated skills, people still get excited talking about TO. It is a sad reminder that modern sports media (aka, ESPN) cares more about hype than accomplishment. And hype, along with the media attention it carries with it, is exactly why Terrell Owens has signed with a new team while Marvin Harrison waits it out as a free agent. BrianG at Buffalo Rumblings summed it up best:
Since when were the Buffalo Bills relevant in any way, shape or form on a national stage? It's been a very long while. That all changed Saturday evening, when Owens stepped to the podium at One Bills Drive donning his red Bills cap. The Buffalo Bills are no longer a league afterthought. For the first time in roughly a decade, the Bills have real, undeniable star power on their roster.
It could not be spelled out any clearer. Buffalo signed TO because they want media attention. This signing had very little to do with winning games (because with Owens on your team, you won't win much) and more to do with getting cameras and reporters interested in Buffalo football. It's pathetic, I know. But when you are as sad as the Bills are, I guess you get desperate.
Look, I'm not saying this stuff to bash the Bills team or their fans. I like the Bills. I've liked them since 1991, when I watched my first Super Bowl. Loved that Giants game. But the sad fact is Buffalo has an old, incompetent owner (Ralph Wilson) who for the past few years has been bleeding money in Buffalo. He's made it clear he wants to move the team to Toronto. The Bills have been irrelevant since the late 1990s, and the main reason why is because the team has incompetent leadership from the top down. The reason why is because Wilson chased away two of the best personnel men in the business: Bill Polian and the late-John Butler.
The story with Polian boils down to Wilson firing him because he didn't like him. Marv Levy begged Wilson not to dump Bill following the 1992 season, but Wilson remained steadfast because he personally disliked Polian. John Butler replaced Polian, and the bills maintained a measure of success for a time. But, Butler left for a GM job with the San Deigo Chargers because of the QB controversy between Doug Flutie and Rob Johnson in 1999. When Butler left, he took Flutie with him. Sadly, Butler passed away in 2003. He was replaced by AJ Smith. 1999 was the last time Buffalo made the playoffs.
Since Polian and Butler left, it has been a circus of clowns running the Bills. Tom Donahoe, who replaced Butler, nearly destroyed the club after Butler left. The team had a brief reprisal (in terms of talent) a few years ago when Marv Levy came back to the club as the GM. He drafted Donte Whitner, Trent Edwards, Marshawn Lynch, Paul Posluszny, and several other players that make up the nucleus of the current Bills. But Levy was clearly not up for the rigors of the job, and left a few years later. Despite adding better players, the fact is the Bills have not played in a playoff game since 1999's Music City Miracle. They haven't won a playoff game since 1995. They haven't been relevant because the team is managed and owned by IDIOTS.
So, how to they stop this and make themselves "relevant" again? By bringing in Terrell Owens.
Feel free to laugh.
If Ralph Wilson and the Bills truly wanted to become relevant again, they'd have made a serious push at getting Scott Pioli to run their team, or tried to pry a young personnel guy like Marc Ross (Director of College Scouting) from the Giants. They would have fired Dick Jauron and hired a competent coach, like perhaps Todd Haley or Leslie Frazier. Instead, the same idiots who took a 5-2 start and ended it with a 2-7 finish are still running the Bills.
Oh, and they now have TO. Again, feel free to laugh.
This team didn't need an old, ass hat WR with a reputation for dropping key first downs and blaming it on his QB. It needs a leader in the front office! I personally have no sympathy for the Bills. I have sympathy and respect for their fans, but not the organization and certainly not the owner. Wilson fired very competent people because he didn't like them. Seriously, WTF is that? Only a spoiled, rich prick like Wilson would think that firing people because he didn't get along with them was somehow a smart business practice. Folks, I work with people I personally dislike all the time. We all do! Hell, there are several SB Nation writers I simply cannot stand, but the fact of the matter is many of those guys I do not like are very, very good writers. And if I were in charge of SB Nation (and thank Christ on the cross I'm not), I wouldn't fire those guys because we don't like each other personally. That would be moronic!
I'm sure my boss right now is reading this, and I'm sure he is pretty upset that I am writing about other SB Nation writers and not painting them in a perfect light. But a big reason why my boss is making money during a recession while Ralph Wilson is bleeding cash is because my boss does not fire competent people just because he doesn't like them.
Photo: www.helmet2helmet.net
So, what does all this have to do with Marvin Harrison? I'm sure you are asking yourself that. Or, maybe you are wondering why a Colts writer is ranting about Ralph friggin Wilson and his cast of dumbos in Buffalo. Well, the reason is thus: Terrell Owens is a media created player. As far as on-the-field accomplishments go, he has done very little to help the teams he has played for win games. Terrell Owens has only played in four playoff games since 2002, losing three of them. He did not play in the playoff games that got Philly to the Super Bowl in 2004, and despite his very much hyped presence in Dallas, he did not help them win a single playoff game.
Yet, despite not doing much to help his teams win on the field, what kept Owens "relevant" were his antics off the field. All of this was fueled by networks like ESPN, who cared more about what TO would do after a TD than they did to the actual game results. ESPN made a conscious network decision to cover TO 24 hours a day because his prancing around garnered attention. What he did on the field was meaningless. What ESPN cared about were the TO rumors that he was unhappy with so-and-so. Where TO goes, ESPN follows. And the reason Buffalo signed TO had little to do with him helping them win and more to do with having Ed Werder camped out at their complex 365 days a year, covering the Bills and TO.
Contrast this with Harrison who, even at 36, is still a better player than Owens. He runs better routes, is still faster, and can catch the ball in the clutch. Marvin Harrison is arguably the greatest WR of his generation, but ESPN barely gave his release a mention. He is part of the best QB to WR duo in NFL history. He's won a Super Bowl. He is second to Jerry Rice in a number of key WR statistics, and he's climbed the charts much faster than Rice did. Yet, no team has signed him because he doesn't bring with him any hype. In fact, the only time ESPN ever gave a crap about Marvin Harrison was when people made up a bunch a bunk about him shooting some dude in a hand outside a bar last year.
This is the sad state of traditional media, boys and girls. And this is why I blog. Marvin Harrison will likely sign with someone. It may likely be Philadelphia, Owens' old team. And when he does sign with someone, he will help them win a helluva lot more games than TO will ever do in Buffalo. Yet, TO will get more attention from the ESPNs of this world. So, for all the times we get annoyed that TO is in the news again, it is important to remember that TO is in the news because the news itself wants him there. Meanwhile, better, more accomplished players like Marvin Harrison and the soon-to-be-released Torry Holt are after thoughts. All these guys did was score TDs, pass the ball to the ref, and win Super Bowls.
Makes you wonder. Go Colts!
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Short answer
First, let me say: there’s is no way I’d want TO anywhere near my team. He has a lot of talent, but he’s a cancer. Everybody please understand this.
OK, now. The reason TO signed first is because the perception in the league is that TO still has a lot left in the tank whereas Marvin is almost done. Due to lack of time I’m keeping this short, but that’s what it is. I’m not saying it’s true. I’m not saying TO is better than Marvin now or over the course of his career. But I am certain there are many in the league who WOULD say it.
They see the numbers from last year: with similar number of catches (69 for TO, 60 for Marvin) TO had over 400 more yds., about 4.5 more ypc, and double the TDs (10 to 5). Defenses don’t think they need to double Marvin anymore, TO still commands a lot of extra attention – thereby opening things up for everybody else on the offense. Basically, they see Marvin missing most of 2007, and being ordinary in 2008. They think he doesn’t have it anymore. They see TO as still having it, if they can just keep him in check.
So if you’re a team that is on the cusp of contending for the playoffs, has a desperate need at WR, and thinks you have a shot at controlling TO’s buffoonery, you’ll take a chance. Enter the Bills. I wouldn’t have done it, but I understand their reasoning. They sure as hell weren’t going to the playoffs if they didn’t jack up their offense. I’d have preferred Coles or Housh, but then I don’t run the Bills….
by ctnyc on Mar 11, 2009 12:44 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
thanks rational Colts fan
So if you’re a team that is on the cusp of contending for the playoffs, has a desperate need at WR, and thinks you have a shot at controlling TO’s buffoonery, you’ll take a chance. Enter the Bills. I wouldn’t have done it, but I understand their reasoning.
That is exactly why the Bills signed TO, not to make media headlines as BigBlueShoe tries painfully to claim. I don’t blame you for having not done it but at least you have the logic to understand its about winning and getting a desperate team over the hump.
"Gooood…..let the apathy take root…" - Ron from NM
by poz on Mar 11, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ctnyc - The Bills did pursue Coles...
and offered him 6M a year.
He took 7 from the Bengals.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 12, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only time I've heard Marv's name mentioned since T.O. signed with the Bills
was on Kornheiser and Wilbon’s Talking Points podcast when Wilbon stated that T.O. is not worth it (I don’t you what he means by “it”; maybe the attention Owens is getting or the signing.) unlike Marvin who is worth it since he’s always contributed to the team and is a good teammate.
by KMR24 on Mar 11, 2009 2:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Buffalo signed TO because they want media attention. This signing had very little to do with winning games (because with Owens on your team, you won’t win much) and more to do with getting cameras and reporters interested in Buffalo football. It’s pathetic, I know. But when you are as sad as the Bills are, I guess you get desperate.
You’re entitled to your opinion, of course, Mr. Blue, but this strikes me as completely absurd.
- The 49ers teams that Owens was a part of were 76-52.
- The Eagles teams that Owens was a part of were 17-6 (discounting the games that Reid benched him).
- The Cowboys teams that Owens was a part of were 31-17.
- Owens made Jeff Garcia look like a franchise starting quarterback, even if he alienated him in the process.
- It’s no coincidence that Donovan McNabb’s best season BY FAR was 2004, Owens’ only full season in Philly.
- Tony Romo went from no-name third stringer to dating Jessica Simpson/all-world Cowboys QB. Owens helped him get there.
- In 13 NFL seasons, only 3 teams Owens has played for finished with losing records.
To say teams don’t win with Owens is not just absurd, it’s patently false.
I’m not going to sit here and say that increased exposure wasn’t part of the attraction to signing T.O. for the Bills organization. We were dealing with a PR crisis after the retention of head coach Dick Jauron. On a daily basis, fans were threatening not to renew their season tickets. Our “major” free agent addition up until Saturday was Geoff Hangartner. Something had to be done to generate some excitement for the upcoming season, and I’m not going to pretend that the addition of T.O. didn’t at least have part of its agenda in the marketing aspect of the team.
But winning was atop the priority list, and not even close to the non-factor you make it out to be. Owens has won wherever he’s gone. Even with declining skills, he’s still good for 8-10 touchdowns per season. Lee Evans caught three touchdown passes last year. We have a second-year starter at quarterback in Trent Edwards that needs some help if we’re ever going to figure out if he’s “the answer” to our long-standing franchise quarterback question. Owens helps Evans and he helps Edwards.
Obviously, there’s more risk in signing Owens than there is in signing any other current NFL player. The Bills haven’t been to the playoffs in nine years; that’s a feat we share with the freaking Lions. Of COURSE the team is desperate. But they’re not desperate to make headlines, they’re desperate to WIN. One a one-year deal, even with more baggage than Paris Hilton taking a year-long trip overseas, it’s a risk worth taking for the Bills if Owens can even help us SNIFF the playoffs. So hell yes, it’s a desperate move. But it’s about winning AND generating buzz, not just one or the other. That, in itself, makes it even more of a risk worth taking.
Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more
by Brian Galliford on Mar 11, 2009 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope you enjoy defending TO
you have a whole year+ of it, and he doesn’t always make it easy.
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 11, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's funny.
Terry used to defend T.O. – that came to an abrupt halt! heh heh heh.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Mar 11, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL. Actually, I’m quite tired of talking about him in any sense, good or bad. Period. :)
I don’t feel like I was defending T.O. there. I was defending the idea that Buffalo would sign anybody for the sole purpose of making itself more marketable to ESPN. T.O. doesn’t really deserve to be defended – he is what he is – but that doesn’t mean that any team signing him was doing it just to get itself some face time.
Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more
by Brian Galliford on Mar 11, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And by “defending the idea”, I mean “arguing the idea”. If I were defending it, I wouldn’t have even needed to comment in the first place. Whoops.
Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more
by Brian Galliford on Mar 11, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's great
Takes the heat – and the cameras, microphones, and obsessive scrutiny – off of Randy Moss for a while.
Keep the faith!
by Marima on Mar 12, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha!
Good point. And this should do it.
by coltsfanawalt on Mar 12, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TO in Buffalo
Nice reply from Buffalo Rumblings. This article really devolved into a Bills bashing column. Big Blue Shoe must have wrote this while wearing his #88 jersey and wiping tears off of his framed Marvin Harrison 8 × 10. The truth of the matter is that TO is better than Harrison. That’s why he was signed after being on the market for 2 days while Marvin is still available and will likely be available for awhile, possibly forever. Why hasn’t Shoe written a hateful article about the Seahawks or Bengals for signing WR’s before Harrison? Can you really argue that this is a bad move by Buffalo? They have a huge need at WR and signed the best one available at the time. Where is the stupidity in that? Should a team that hasn’t been to the playoffs since ‘99 be so concerned with the chemistry of their perpetually 7-9 team that they should dismiss a chance to get significantly better at a position of need? I’m glad Shoe isn’t running my team, because he has obviously been spoiled be the Peyton Manning era and doesn’t realize that teams with a talent gap have to sign talented players.
by BFerman on Mar 11, 2009 3:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
bingo!
Should a team that hasn’t been to the playoffs since ‘99 be so concerned with the chemistry of their perpetually 7-9 team that they should dismiss a chance to get significantly better at a position of need?
hit the nail on the head BF
"Gooood…..let the apathy take root…" - Ron from NM
by poz on Mar 11, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crap...
Had to register and respond to this crap. As a colts fan you have to be pretty high on Reggie Wayne your o line and Peyton Manning. Harrison has had a great supporting cast around him and still did not produce the numbers TO has. TO is a cancer yes….but harrison better….its a joke. Jeff garcia, Mcnabb and Romo are all pretty good quarterbacks…but they are no peyton manning. Freddie Mitchell and patrick crayton….are no Reggie Wayne. Come on get a grip on reality. Harrison had the better opportunity and performed at a lower level.
by bsitz on Mar 11, 2009 3:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
over the last two years TO has had better numbers (because of Marvin's injury and not coming back the same guy)
but over the 11 before that Marvin was better across the board.
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 11, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TO vs Marvin 1996-2006
Marvin 1,022 receptions TO 801
Marvin 13,697 yards TO 11,715
Marvin 122 TDs TO 114
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 11, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't for get 1 SB ring to 0
I was going to respond and say something along the lines of “What are you, 12? You’re a complete idiot. You obviously didn’t watch anything but what ESPN spoon fed you. Please stop pretending to know what you’re talking about. There was no story there so they didn’t cover him in the media, but you’re a babbling moron if you actually believe the steaming pile of crap spewing out of your mouth. Please go pick up a fantasy football magazine so you can expand on your lack of anything even resembling rudimentary football knowledge.” But I decided to be nice…..oops.
FACT : Steve Young is better than Jim Harbaugh
FACT : Jerry Rice is better than Reggie Wayne
FACT : Harrison has the 4th, 7th, and 21st most receiving yards in a season in history
FACT : Owens best receiving season ranks as 37th best and 271 yards behind Harrison’s best.
FACT : You’re an idiot.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
by monstersbox on Mar 11, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll do a short answer myself
I’m at work so…yeah. Anyway, as much as I don’t like the guy, T.O. produces on the field. Maybe not to the extent the Buffalo fan is saying, but he did. That may be more a result of going to good teams who lacked little aside from a #1 WR, but don’t fool yourself, the teams he went to were playoff teams before he got there. He didn’t magically turn them into them.
McNabb suffered a series of injuries after T.O. left, and not only did he have a very good season this year, but if Jackson hadn’t have had numerous drops, or the pre-ejaculation celebration at the 1, his numbers would be even better. Jackson’s drops cost him at least 200 yards, 2-3 TDs, and he did it with Westbrook banged up the entire year. In 2004, Westbrook made his impact and a huge factor in T.O. and McNabb’s season. Not only that, but McNabb had an injury that would essentially end a mobile QB’s career, which he was at the time, and changed his way of playing to still be able to produce at an elite level. That’s rather impressive. To say it was all T.O. is a little jaded.
Anyway, onto T.O. T.O. as a football player is amazing. In fact, T.O. as a person is apparently pretty cool from what I’ve heard. And you’re right, the media definitely wants ratings, controversy etc.. But you have to realize, a certain amount of “T.O. is an egotistical jackass” could be ignored. But they covered it 24/7 as you said BBS. T.O. was constantly defending himself which made him look even worse. The main problem with T.O. is that (actually he has more than one) is that 1) He thinks he not only used to be the best player in the NFL, but he still is. 2) He tells the truth. The first is obvious, but why is telling the truth a negative? Well because it’s the NFL, nobody tells the truth or doesn’t put so much spin on what they say that politicians would be jealous. He was definitely out of line and wrong on certain occassions (Jeff Garcia, who I pointed out in a post not too long ago IS a franchise QB even without T.O. so saying T.O. made Garcia is ignorant, especially considering that Garcia The Scrub was the QB during T.O.s best, by far, years in the NFL. By the way, that scrub went 5-1 and had a 96 QB rating for the Eagles the season after T.O. left). However, I really don’t think it’s a secret that Parcells is a dick, and T.O. called him out on it. Now sometimes a dick can get results, but hey, if you’re a dick and someone calls you a dick and you know you’re a dick, whoop de freaking doo. Deal with it stop being a dick. It’s a little hypocritical to get offended by that. And as much as I like McNabb, and he wasn’t the sole cause for the loss, but his 3 interceptions in the Super Bowl definitely had a direct result on the final score.
Not saying T.O. isn’t to blame for about 100% of the negative association with him, but that mainly has to do with him being overly sensitive and actually quite a bit more self conscience than people realize. He wants to be liked and the media knows how to push his buttons to get a headline. He went into those “I’m a good boy” acts because of the negative press he was getting, but never realized that it was the press that was using him as a court jester.
With that said, T.O.‘s drive to win is not the “All for one, One for All” mantra he keeps saying it is. T.O. wants to win a championship because he feels it would legitimize him as one of, if not THE greatest WR to ever play. It drives him to put a ton of work and effort into trying to be the best and leave 100% on the field, but he’s doing it for himself. Luckily he’s driven by the prestige more than the money so he does perform. But I was in the military for 6 years and almost slapped a guy when we were getting deployed when he was talking about all the medals he wanted to come back with. When people go out of their way to receive accolades and recognition that were intended to reflect what your contribution, sacrifice, and willingness to help others without thinking of yourself, you get people killed. I’d rather have a guy come up to me if I’m shot that’s scared shitless than some dude who’s going to have dellusions of grandeur in his mind of being presented with a medal at home. People get hurt, the mission suffers, and nothing good ever comes from people with that have that state of mind. If prestige and what a championship means for YOU, Terrell Owens, is more important than contributing to the team, are you really that great of a player?
As for Buffalo, if you shot him with a tranquilizer at the end of every game or refused to let the press talk to him, great move. Your receivers, aside from Evans, are too green to be starters. This allows them to grow and Lee Evans is going to go crazy next year as long as you can keep your QB healthy and he regains his confidence. He was obviously shell shocked last year when he came back. If it had no positive impact for the Bills, the argument that it’s a media move is valid, however, that’s not the case. Buffalo wanted Housh and Coles and most likely would have been a definite possibility for Maclin to go to. I don’t think they went into this with a cheek to cheek grin on their face, more like a grimace, but the BILLS want to win. Maybe T.O. doesn’t care about winning, but they know his ego generally translates to production and winning means as much or more to T.O. than people realize.
Besides, they know how old he is, they also know the amount of negative impact he could cause for the team is limited to 1 year if things get out of hand. He’s a 1-2 year max player for a team that probably realized they’re not going to win it all this year, but could improve and groom to be better down the road. I think the risk is worth the upside in this situation.
But the Bills really screwed up with Jauron. They based that extension off of the first part of the season before people looked back and realized they had all their wins against the AFC and NFC West divisions. If you want to see how much of a mistake that could potentially be, go ask some Jags fans how much faith they have in Del Rio.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
by monstersbox on Mar 11, 2009 3:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brian didn’t see McNabb’s best season since T.O. came was 2004. His best season ever was Owens’ only full season in Philly. Look before of after. Owens made the Eagles dramatically better. He didn’t “make them” as you seem to be implying, but made them better. You can’t say that was the only year McNabb was healthy or the only year he had Westbrook.
Your Bills WR argument is flawed, too. If you say we are young and green at the position how does adding anothing young, green WR in Maclin help us at all?
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 12, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Short answer?
I’d hate to see how long the one you really thought out was.
by BFerman on Mar 11, 2009 3:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Believe me.
This IS a short answer. =D
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Mar 11, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's alot of angles man
Had to defend Garcia, McNabb, the Bills, and the Eagles while at the same time prevent the “Let’s hold hands and skip down the road and lick on lollipops” mentality.
And don’t listen to peytonsthebest, she’s my biggest fan (edit:only) and only person who I think reads half my stuff anyway.
You need someone to kill a topic, just point me to the thread.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
by monstersbox on Mar 11, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wrong again BBS
no way is Harrison faster than T.O., that simply is not true. Both receivers are HOFers, but T.O. is clearly the better athlete, much more explosive than Marvin.
Harrison has better hands, can route better routes and is overall a better WR, I agree, but from a pure athletic standpoint, Harrison simply isn’t in T.O.’s league.
In Romo we Trust
by Terry on Mar 11, 2009 4:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Harrison can route better routes huh? That’s still not as impressive as TO beating to his own beat.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
by KingRichard on Mar 11, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not even going to argue
Getting Marvin is better than TO is more than I ever would have hoped from Terry.
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 11, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"So, why did Terrell Owens sign faster than Marvin Harrison did?"
Because Terrell Owens is a better player now and during this era. Hardly the secret of life, this answer.
Harrison, although a pathetic recluse and a diva in his own right, is the better teammate by default however given Owens’ cancerous effects in a locker room over a prolonged period of time and no veterans to keep him in check.
by project geo on Mar 11, 2009 6:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The first 11 years of their careers
Marvin 1,022 receptions TO 801
Marvin 13,697 yards TO 11,715
Marvin 122 TDs TO 114
Up until Marvin hurt his knee and couldn’t recover, he was vastly more productive while TO was getting booted from his first two teams.
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 11, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he did hurt his knee,
And TO had twice the touchdowns, 400 more yards and greater then 4 more yards per catch. I do not understand how you can say that going forward Marvin Harrison is going to be the better reciever then TO? Both of them play a healthy season, and TO does better in basicly every stat.
by germpod on Mar 11, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"now and during this era"
That’s the ridiculous statement from Project Geo. Marvin was far and away the better WR for the majority of their careers.
A lot of TO’s better productiveness was that he was forcing himself into the offense. He was top 10 in targets and caught only half of them. He had a better season, but not by as much as the raw numbers suggest. Owens was 46th in DYAR and 56th in DVOA. He wasn’t very good even though he had decent totals. As is, right now I don’t think Marv is a better WR (but I don’t think there’s much of a gap).
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 11, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IN all fairness...
Owens also missed quite some time due to injury. I’m pretty confident that on a average pr game, the difference between Owens and Harrison isn’t nearly as great. And before people starts to go on rants about Owens, and how he is not able to perform in the playoffs, and that he is down 1-0 in terms of rings, just remember… Those have been the knocks on Harrison for years..
by jocre on Mar 11, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
T.O. better than Marv!?
OMG…this is one of the most stupid comments ive read in a while….
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha OK" - Tom Brady
by Piojocuau on Mar 11, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harrison won't sign with Philly
That is, quite frankly, an ignorant statement.
But you know what, maybe the Eagles’ front office suddenly and inexplicably undergoes a major personality shift and does a complete about-face in how they build their football team. Who knows, maybe the franchise that is most hesitant in the league to invest in players over the age of 30 will magically decide to bring in an old finesse receiver whose skills have already diminished considerably.
If only someone who says “Harrison to the Eagles” could actually think to themselves: When was the last time the Eagles signed a free agent from another team that was closer to 40 years old than 30 years old? If only.
But hey, McNabb played with Harrison one year at Syracuse. And he lives in Philly! That’s practically a contract right there, nevermind the fact that Harrison doesn’t even crack Philly’s top three of Jackson/Curtis/Avant at this point.
by project geo on Mar 11, 2009 6:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
so Jackson Curtis and Avant are all better than Anthony Gonzalez who Marv was playing over?
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 11, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blame the Colts' coaches
… for not having the guts to make the right move. Harrison was the 4th best receiver on the team last season, superior players in Clark and Gonzo deserved those looks because they could do more. Gonzo should have been starting.
Don’t get me wrong, I liked Tony Dungy. Big-time. I can’t tell you how much I despised the idiot sheep Colts fans screaming “Fire Dungy” during the 2006 season. He was a great coach, and absolutely put the team in position to win both Chargers playoff losses the last two years, and did a good job leading the defense (Meeks was at best an extension).
But unfortunately he had an inability to make the tough decision. He made a number of stupid decisions on 4th and shorts, and wouldn’t fire Russ Purnell no matter how bad a coach he was one year after another after another.
Him not doing the right thing for the team by benching Harrison last year was very disappointing, but was typical for him. His treatment of Tyjuan Hagler last year wasn’t typical, but also disappointing, I felt. But what happened, happened, and it’s time to move on. Dungy belongs in Canton, and Harrison will get in too, although thankfully he is gone and the team can finally and truly move on to bigger and better things.
He can keep all of his regular season stats, because he’s nothing but a numbers guy. Which to me is not equatable to an all-time great football player. Not at all.
by project geo on Mar 11, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes because Indy has won 12+ games for 6 straight years by not playing the best players
that sounds totally like them.
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 11, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harrison better than TO.........Hardly!!!
BigBlueShoe………..Harrison better than TO? I have no idea what glue you have been sniffing, must be pretty damn good though!!! Harrison better hands, yes maybe. Better athlete, not even close!! Harrison faster than TO? Not even close again!! Great signing by Buffalo and I would still take TO, at this stage in their careers over Harrison any day of the week. Harrison was maybe the 3rd best WR on the Colts last year, on the other hand TO was still the best WR on the Cowboys and he didn’t have a Reggie Wayne on the other side. Oh yeah, this just in……….say what you want about TO, but he didn’t pull a gun and shoot at somebody like Harrison did!
by Rickster78 on Mar 11, 2009 6:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Marv pulled a gun and shot someone why hasn't he even been charged with a crime?
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 11, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BECAUSE...
the Indianapolis police can’t figure it out…duh! =D (See Rickster’s comment below)
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Mar 11, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it happened in Philly.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 12, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It happened in Philly...
just my weak attempt at sarcasm. =)
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Mar 12, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
If they somehow reopen the case, decide to arrest Harrison, and take him to court, he may as well ask Lynch for a few pointers on how to get out of it. If he even does.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
by monstersbox on Mar 12, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TO signed best WR after TJ
Because he is better than Harrison, plain and simple!!! No way Buffalo signed TO for media attention!! What does Buffalo have to lose? 7-9 three years in a row, no playoffs for the past 10 years!! I hope TO shoots his mouth off and gets these guys fired up, like I said the Bills have nothing to lose! Your commentary really sucked BigBlueShoe……….Jerry Sullivan of the Buffalo News would put you to shame!! You can’t tell me Colts fans wouldn’t take TO over Harrison? Harrison is washed up, and has been, Wayne is the man on that team!
by Rickster78 on Mar 11, 2009 7:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
shake n bake
Because Marv has never pulled a gun on anyone, but Harrison has, we all have heard it in the news!! Have you heard in the news that Marv has pulled a gun? No…..Harrison was never charged because the police in Indy couldn’t figure it out, but they do know that he fired the gun, he just got away with it, like most NFL players.
by Rickster78 on Mar 11, 2009 7:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't tell me we have another PatsR18*AndDoneWithoutCheating on this blog!?!?!
What are you talking about:
Because Marv has never pulled a gun on anyone, but Harrison has…
That’s the same person you’re talking about; your statement doesn’t even make sense.
Harrison was never charged because the police in Indy couldn’t figure it out..
Dude, the incident happened in Philly, not Indy. Get your facts straight.
…but they do know that he fired the gun, he just got away with it, like most NFL players.
What NFL players do you know who get off of gun charges easily? Please tell me.
by KMR24 on Mar 11, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus they don't know who fired the gun
both witnesses that said it was Marv(in Harrison) have admitted to lying to police in the case.
and the “victim” of the shooting…
A. Is a convicted Felon
B. Was the only person charged with a crime from the incident (making false statements under oath)
C. Was driving a car that police found multiple shell casings inside
D. All of the above.
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 11, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well in Philly... the owner of the gun is liable for any crime committed with it.
Harrison owns the gun, ergo he should be held accountable. Right?
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 12, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See shell casings in the other guys car
they can’t tell who committed the crime with the gun and who was defending themselves.
They ball when they can and I'm ballin' by nature
Addicted to the game like Jordan and Peyton
-Lil Wayne "Fireman"
by shake n bake on Mar 12, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes sense.
I knew there was a reason that they didn’t charge him. I just didn’t know why.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 12, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh and re:
Don’t tell me we have another PatsR18*AndDoneWithoutCheating on this blog!?!?!
Apparently every fanbase has one, and we’ve drawn the Bills’
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 11, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a couple of things...
First of all, “Marv” is Harrison
Secondly, we ALL know the “news” (read ESPN) is 100% accurate – yeah, right
and finally, the incident happened in Philly, NOT Indy.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Mar 11, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I've been saying forever
Our Indy police force is so shoddy when it comes to patrolling and enforcing Philadelphia. Governor Daniels needs to put more tax dollars in that area of the state budget.
Diamondback Dan? Can he say that? Isn't that a popularly elected FO position?
by AJforAZ on Mar 12, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Downside
This just seems to be the downside of Marvin being a low-profile guy, compared to TO
by Stadtfeld on Mar 11, 2009 7:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok
Guess you guys put me in my place :) Hey no harm, yes I am a huge Bills fan, always have been, always will be!! Just haven’t had anything to cheer about in such a long time! I still disagree with the guy that wrote this column, a nice signing by the Bills. Come on be honest, do you really think Harrison at this stage in his career is better than TO? Like I said no harm, just giving my opinion on some things, even if I made some mistakes. So what is the deal with Harrison, who is he going to sign with? Good luck guys with the Colts this year! Go Bills!
by Rickster78 on Mar 11, 2009 7:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Honestly
A resounding yes. How many Colts games have you watched? I can predict you haven’t watched many, or you like the sweet sound of Madden’s voice talking about the bootleg. Because if you actually HAD watched the games, you would have noticed that Marvin was free quite often and Peyton either overthrew or underthrew him. Either that or Marvin got completely free from running the wrong route, which I doubt. Marvin was not released because he was finished, he was released because he had the biggest hit for a WR in the entire league and the Colts were struggling with cap space. They couldn’t even sign Saturday until they added 4 million onto the signing bonus. So please, do yourself a favor and don’t come into a Colts blog where I can promise you, about 99% of us (wait, Pats18 was banned right?), I mean 100% of us know more about OUR receiver that has played on OUR team for 13 years. Go hump a couch and enjoy your mancrush. I’d be more concerned about the Patriots signing Bodden, Springs, Lewis, Taylor and having 4 picks in the first two rounds. Not to mention the Jets signing Scott, Sheppard and Leonhard. Both of those teams put serious work into their defense and their secondary. You’ll be lucky to finish 3rd in the East. Your defense is terrible and signing T.O. won’t do jack unless he can rush the passer too. You’re a T2 with not only a poor rushing defense, but a terrible passing defense who just let one of your best defensive players go sign someplace else. Your early success came from beating up on the AFC and NFC Wests. And now somehow signing a 35 year old receiver who runs his mouth and WASN’T the best receiver on the Cowboys? I’m sorry, but if you say Owens was better than Witten….I don’t even know what to say. Yeah Witten, that dude who had 952 yards receiver while playing almost half a season with broken ribs and playing for the TEAM.
Go back into your hole Bills fans. I understand that BBS’ post may have been confrontational, but don’t come into a Colts blog and start knocking one of the most loved Colts player who I promise you, we know more about than you.
Face the truth.
Oh and by the way,
“Harrison, who ran a blistering 4.38 in the 40-yard dash as a senior.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/31/sports/football/31harrison.html
As of now, I can’t find a legitimate T.O. 40 source, but have repeatedly found “Just under 4.6.” Which I believe. He’s physical. But how much faster than a 4.38 do you believe he ran? Exactly.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
by monstersbox on Mar 12, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
monsterbox... take your own advice please...
How many Colts games have you watched?
Say all you want about the Colts but don’t start telling Bills fans what the Bills need. We are pretty aware. BTW – I don’t know Rickster… He’s not a Rumbler. It sounds silly for you to bash him when you yourself do the same thing.
When you say things like “Go back into your hole Bills fans” it is inflammatory for the point of being infalmmatory, a trait you don’t like about T.O. If you followed your own advice, you’d sound a lot more convincing.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 12, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Context
You’re right, I’m completely out of line for defending ignorant statements coming from a Bills fan in a Colt blog. Please.
If what I said is untrue, maybe you’d like to take issue with certain points I made. And if you had actually read my first post, I actually defended the Bills and the signing. However, I do take issue when fans of another team start up an argument that revolves around a direct comparison to a new member of their team (and believe me, I’ve lived in an area that forces the NFC East down your throat for the majority of my football viewing life) against someone who I’ve been following for years.
Tell me which part isn’t true. The Bills had a below average to poor passing defense, a poor rushing defense, you let Greer walk, your early success came against teams well below .500, and T.O. MIGHT have been a factor if the Jets and Pats didn’t significantly improve their defense with an emphasis placed on the secondary.
I was being rather polite until the constant “T.O. is not only better than Marvin now, but a better receiver over his career!” Which is simply not true. If I went onto your forum and started blasting Thurman Thomas, you’d have every right to reply the same way I did. However 1) That’d be plain stupid 2) Is tactless to start an argument where I would assume a good majority of the people know the player in question better than me 3) I’m clearly insulting one of the best players that’s ever played for the team 4) If I WERE to do it (which I wouldn’t), I’d make sure to get my facts straight 5) If I saw an idiot Colt fan doing so, I wouldn’t be jumping to his rescue and would probably say something along the lines of “He doesn’t represent the average Colt fan.”
Taking a cue from yourself, your post is arrogant to the point of arrogance.
By the way, concerning your above reply to the post where I was actually defending T.O. and the signing, which I guess went over your head because you obviously found it demeaning for some reason, you clearly misinterpreted what I wrote. " He didn’t "make them" as you seem to be implying, but made them better. " That was actually my point. However, concering your mindset that he made them “dramatically better” is ignoring that the Eagles made it to the Super Bowl without him. And yes, the injuries sustained by Westbrook and McNabb had a direct impact on their record before and after 2004.
In 2003 Westbrook started as a returner and a third down back. Buckhalter was intended to be the starter but was still coming off an ACL injury and so they went to a committee with Staley and Westbrook. Westbrook took over as the starter when the Eagles released Staley and Buckhalter missed the 2004-2005 seasons after tearing his PCL. At the end of the 2003 season, Westbrook tore his tricep and missed the playoffs.
So in 2004, it was the first season that Westbrook was THE RB. He was second to T.O.’s 77 receptions with 73.
The 7 games in 2005 T.O. played Westbrook had 39 receptions and 423 yards to TO’s 47 765. He broke his foot in Week 12 and missed the rest of the season.
In 2006, Westbrook missed time and played with a swollen knee. He put up over 1900 combined yards and 1200 were rushing. The injury to McNabb changed the gameplan and allowed them to see him as a runner. He had 141 yards against the Giants and almost took them to the Championship game without McNabb or T.O.
He missed 1 game in 2007 and had 2104 yards from scrimmage. And he was obviously struggling with multiple injuries this year.
So that leaves McNabb. In 2002 he played on a broken ankle but finished the game. He then missed 6 games and lost to the Bucs (who happened to win the SB) his second week back. In 2003 he started slow (similar to Peyton this year) and had one of the best second halves of the seasons in the entire league. McNabb was knocked out of the conference game with an injury. In 2004 he had T.O. and Westbrook was finally the starter. They made it to the Super Bowl with T.O. injured and faced the Patriots and lost. In 2005 he started well but ended up on IR due to his thumb and sports hernia after 9 games. In 2006 he tore his ACL 10 games into the season. He returned 4 months ahead of schedule to start in 2007. In 2007 he sprained his throwing thumb and ankle and finished with a respectable season. In 2008, he had the most passing yards of his career and put the team in position to have a come from behind victory, and of course they didn’t. Not to mention after T.O. arrived McNabb’s rushing went from 400-600 yards per year to 220. Rushing used to be part of his game and a very good part.
So let’s break it down.
2002 : McNabb (broken ankle, missed 6 games); Westbrook (Rookie season, third string back) 12-4 Record
2003 : McNabb 16/16 Westbrook (Became a part of a committee backfield and had a good year, however he wasn’t the full time starter yet) 12-4 Record
2004 : McNabb 15/16 (Rushing numbers went down, best QB rating, made Super Bowl without T.O.); Westbrook 16/16 (First year as a starter, had over 1500 yards from scrimmage) 13-3 Record
2005 : McNabb 9/16 (thumb/ankle/hernia); Westbrook 12/16 (broken foot) 6-10 Record
2006 : McNabb 10/16 (ACL); Westbrook 14.5/16 (knee swelling) 10-6 (still won the NFC East)
2007 : McNabb 14/16 (early return from ACL limiting mobility/thumb/ankle); Westbrook 15/16 (wear and tear) 8-8 record
2008 : McNabb 16/16 (benched a half because Reid’s retarded); Westbrook 14/16 (banged up entire season) 9-7-1 record, just missed Super Bowl
So actually, yes, Westbrook + McNabb is the reason for the Eagles success and in 2004 was pretty much the only season where Westbrook was a fulltime starter and both he and McNabb were healthy for an entire season. Since T.O. left the Eagles, the Eagles have played in 5 playoff games. T.O. has played in 2, losing in both. Prior to T.O. arriving, McNabb played in 9 playoff games and went to 3 NFC Championship games and 11 total games without T.O. McNabb is 9-5 without T.O. and 0-1 with T.O.
So I can honestly say that Brian Westbrook was a much greater contributing factor to the success of the Eagles. Owens did not “greatly improve” the Eagles, they were already a great team. The knock against them was that they couldn’t make it to the Super Bowl. Well, they did, and they did that without T.O. And it was during the only season where both McNabb and Westbrook could be considered healthy for an entire season. It’s not a coincidence. When both Westbrook and McNabb play when healthy, it’s a significantly different team.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
by monstersbox on Mar 12, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously?
I never said anything in regards to Harrison v. Owens. You can defend your player all you want. What do I care? What I care about is you saying someone else shouldn’t talk about your player and then you proceed to turn around and start doing the same thing about the Bills.
You’ll be lucky to finish 3rd in the East. Your defense is terrible and signing T.O. won’t do jack unless he can rush the passer too. You’re a T2 with not only a poor rushing defense, but a terrible passing defense who just let one of your best defensive players go sign someplace else. Your early success came from beating up on the AFC and NFC Wests.
When you start talking about the Bills, their schedule, their opponents, and their players you then become exactly what you pounced on that other guy for. You become a second-hand fan. Say whatever you want about your guys but don’t start telling us we have a terrible defense, etc.etc.
How was the Bills defense so poor? We were 14th overall in yards allowed per game, 14th in points allowed, 13th against the pass. The rushing defense was the onlt one out of the top half of the league (22nd). None of those rankings are epic but it’s better than half the league. If Jabari Greer was anything but a one-year wonder, we wouldn’t have let him walk. He was not our best defensive player last year or any other year. He played well for us but he’s not someone to build a defense around, at least he hasn’t shown that to this point in his career. Take your own advice and talk about your team, not mine.
The Jets and the Patriots improving their secondary is not surprising and was in the works before Owens even signed. The Jets have Darrelle Revis and… who? Are you surprised they added DBs? The Patriots had who starting last year? Ellis Hobbs and…? Why wouldn’t they get better at CB? That’s what free agency is for.
No Bills fans came over and just started blindly arguing with you over Harrison v. Owens. Most of the comments just took issue with bigblueshoe blasting us and our new guy. The comparisons about TO vs. Harrison started with your editor! How can you pin this on Bills fans? At this point in his career, many feel Owens is the better option, justified or not. You can’t deny that Owens had more catches, yards, and TDs. I think overall, Harrison has been the more consistent WR but both of them are Hall of Famers so what’s it really matter?
I never defended the other guy until you started bringing in the Bills and their shortcomings. I really don’t see how my post is the “height of arrogance” when all I did was tell you to take your own advice and not trash another team with which you are less familiar.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 12, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Eagles...
Just for reference, our blogger Brian was right. 2004 was McNabb’s best season and his only full season with Owens.
McNabb 2004 Season – Career Rankings:
Yards – 2nd highest (3875 yards)
TDs – 1st (By far)
Comp. % – 1st (By far)
Win-Loss – 1st (including playoffs)
TD to INT ratio – 1st (By far)
Yards per attempt – 2nd (By 0.1 ypa)
Passer Rating – 1st (By ten points!!)
I don’t see how you are disproving that the only season T.O. was there was McNabb’s best year. You are just trying to give another reason for it or blame it on Westbrook/McNabb injuries. Don’t you think Westbrook was more effective due to Owens drawring double coverage and Westbrook being manned up by a linebacker instead of a safety? Westbrook didn’t go out and set career-highs in any receiving stat except TDs that season (6).
Owens on the other hand contributed a third of the team’s receiving yards and almost half of the TDs on less than a quarter of the catches. It was the only time the Eagles ever won 13 games. They scored more points and had more yards of offense than the year before, too. I don’t know how much of an argument you can make by saying that Owens wasn’t an improvement over the 2003 #1 WR Todd Pinkston.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 12, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That wasn't my argument
My argument was that the Eagles were a good team before and after Owens was there. Minus the injuries, yes, I think McNabb would’ve had comparable or possibly even better seasons post T.O. You’re saying that the only reason McNabb posted those numbers was because of T.O. Ignoring that he was getting better leading up to that, had several serious injuries that limited his playing time when they didn’t end his season, and ignoring the fact that their best offensive player finally began contributing in 2004 and saying they were a significantly better team because of him. Well, they made the Super Bowl without him. So maybe, I don’t know, they were a better team as a whole?
And you seriously need to go review the posts and actually see what was being said about Harrison that garnered my response. Which by the way, had absolutely nothing to do with you in the first place. And it may have been the only time they won 13 games, but they had won 11, 11, 12, 12, prior to T.O.’s arrival.
T.O. went from a consistent 11-13 Super Bowl winning team (San Francisco) that turned into a poor (4-12, 6-10, 7-9) with a decent (10-6) and a good (12-4) team when Rice was older and finally left, to the Eagles. And then he went to the Cowboys, who are easily an above average team now and were on the upswing when he went there. But during his tenure they won more than one game once. Even though he was clearly being featured in the offense. You can say what you want, but every team he’s played for up to this point was a playoff team that had several pieces in place and success before he got there.
On the other hand, Harrison went to a team on the decline that was one of the worst teams for years and he still performed. He had a team in shambles built around him and only got better. He was crushing T.O. before his injury. And this year he was playing well and deserved to be on the field but Manning and his timing were off. Manning wasn’t forcing balls to him because he had other weapons that he decided to use and wasn’t accused of a conspiracy and he Marvin wasn’t throwing his QB and offensive coordinator under the bus. Owens had 140 targets and 69 receptions and was 4th with 10 drops, caught 49% of his targets and 27% for first downs. Harrison played in 1 less game, dropped 1 pass, caught 56% of his targets, and 38.3% of his catches were for first downs. And I can clearly recall more than a few times Harrison was wide open and Manning either underthrew or overthrew him. His numbers should’ve been significantly higher but I understand why they weren’t. Just an example, the pass he caught to setup the game winning field goal in SD should have been a 52 yard TD. And he was wide open, no defender within 15 yards of him in the first half of that game for what would’ve been over a 60 yard TD. Believe me, his numbers could have been significantly higher with 140 targets but a 12-4 record trumps a 9-7 record any day. shake wasn’t talking out of his ass when he was talking about DVOA.
As for my comments about the Bills and their defense, tell me where I’m wrong. If you’re only looking at yards and using that as what you consider a top defense, I’ll tell you straight up that’s a poor way to determine how good or bad a defense is. I’m not biased, the Colts rush defense was terrible until the latter half of the year. But we gave up 20 more yards on 17 more carries than you. Your ypc allowed was 4.3 to our 4.2. And our rush defense sucked. But it’s understandable, we both use the same scheme and it’s difficult to stop the run unless you have the right personnel. And we had one quit on us and kicked one off the team. The T2 is intended to stop the pass, put pressure on the QB and create turnovers. Buffalo finished with 24 sacks (28th in the league), 10 interceptions (27th in the league), 17th in YPA, allowed an 83.2 QB rating and were 27th in the league in giveaway/takeaway at 27.
To put it in perspective, you had the 27th best defense. Your variance was 4.6%. That variance number means you were consistent in being poor.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
As for your point that Buffalo fans didn’t come over here and start attacking Harrison, well that’s simply not the case. After ctnyc, myself, and quite a few Colts fans defended the pick, it initially started off with both Bills and Colts fans pretty much agreeing. However, what set off this string of events was when BFerman made his post to the tune of “The truth of the matter is that TO is better than Harrison.”
Followed by bsitz “Harrison has had a great supporting cast around him and still did not produce the numbers TO has. TO is a cancer yes….but harrison better….its a joke.”
Followed by the awesomeness that Rickster78 decided to add in heaps. Seriously, go back and look at the original responses. Then go look why, and who changed the tone of the thread. For the most part, the Colts fans were AGREEING that BBS’ post was confrontational and not something we all agreed with. I’ve had several occasions where I don’t agree with what he says and defend other teams and players. Instead of “Cool, that’s one person’s opinion and it doesn’t look like anybody’s agreeing.”, several Bills fans came in and started getting confrontational. You didn’t start posting until after most of the smack talking started. So don’t act like I was taking things out of context and ignoring those sweet innocent Bills fans.
Go read my original post. And hey, if that post later on in response to some Bills fans hurts your feelings, tough. It’s the truth. Your defense sucks, deal with it. Owens isn’t going to make you a playoff team, especially in your division. What you do with the draft and the rest of free agency could. At the moment, however, the Pats, Fins, and even the Jets have more going for them.
The Colts linebackers suck, our DTs are subpar, our O-line has serious questions, our #1 CB from last year is coming back from a severe injury, we have little to no cap space, our RB did a 180 with injuries being a factor, we have no proven depth at RB or LB, we’re not sure who our 3rd receiver will be, one of the best QBs of all time is starting to enter the final years of an elite career, the Colts window is closing and we have several coaching changes. I’m not blindly supporting my team, I know our problems. But I will defend one of the greatest Colts to ever wear the uniform. Especially when what some people are saying is simply untrue.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
by monstersbox on Mar 12, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My last post on the Eagles...
As you have said before it’s not on me to blog about other teams. I said the Eagles best year was with T.O. not that they didn’t have great years without him or that he made them great.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 12, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My last post to you in general.
And hey, if that post later on in response to some Bills fans hurts your feelings, tough. It’s the truth. Your defense sucks, deal with it.
You haven’t hurt my feelings as much as made your own argument look like a fraud. The only comment I was making to you is that for someone who is preaching that other teams’ fans shouldn’t talk about your player, why are you talking about the Bills team and not your own? It just seems hypocrtitical.
I also love how you say the Jets have more going for them right now with no legit starting QB on the roster and an arrogant rookie coach. I’m not saying the Bills are a playoff team but they are better now than we were a week ago. And they are better with TO right now than they would be with Marvin. I love Marvin. I am a big time SU fan. I watched him in college before he was a Colt. I get it. He is great.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 12, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
shake n bake: Better to draw the Bills
than the cheating Pats!! Damn I hate them as much as you guys do! Like I said, just having fun………..I cheer for the Colts when the Bills are out of it!
by Rickster78 on Mar 11, 2009 7:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
it's a different IP
and from Buffalo instead of Indy.
Either Pars is far more computer literate than I have would have guessed or it’s someone different.
They ball when they can and I'm ballin' by nature
Addicted to the game like Jordan and Peyton
-Lil Wayne "Fireman"
by shake n bake on Mar 12, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
far more computer literate than literate
would be how I’d describe him if it’s or old friend Pars
They ball when they can and I'm ballin' by nature
Addicted to the game like Jordan and Peyton
-Lil Wayne "Fireman"
by shake n bake on Mar 12, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
point taken
I just assumed with the cheating comment that it was him again…
by LovinBlue on Mar 12, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it wasn't a big leap to take
it was enough like him for me to check on the IP and location.
They ball when they can and I'm ballin' by nature
Addicted to the game like Jordan and Peyton
-Lil Wayne "Fireman"
by shake n bake on Mar 12, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you guys are going overboard
TO does give the Bills some relevance from the media, but I think it’s a good move.
As for TO vs. Marvin.. well I don’t know who is going to be better, but I wouldn’t think it to be a wise bet to bet on Marvin considering TO has outperformed him (statistically) the last 2 years easily. I know TO has probably dropped more balls over that span, but Marvin was exactly money-hands last year like he usually was.
Being a Colts fan I would much rather have Marvin, and I think he will bounce back next year, but I think some of you guys are underrating TO’s skills. He is also slightly younger than Marvin which should only help solidify my case.
by yellowsnow on Mar 12, 2009 7:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
correction
WASN’T exactly money-hands last year like he usually was
by yellowsnow on Mar 12, 2009 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TO is still a better athlete, he stretches the field more than Marvin. Marvin’s still smart and runs better routes.
Neither were particularly reliable holding onto the football last season.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 12, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hhhmmmm!!!
From one COLTS fan to another, I appreciate you being a loyal Marvin Harrison fan but I really think that your account of Marvin’s contribution to the Colts is a bit sensationalized. Yes, Marvin is a 1st ballot HOF player. No doubt about it. As a Colts fan, I would have rather gone into battle in the playoffs with TO over Marvin. Check the stats. How many playoff touchdowns does Marvin have? Heck, TO had more touchdown passes in one game that Marvin has in his whole career. TO wouldn’t have had the problems getting open in New England against Ty Law or any other DB that the Pat’s would have lined up infront of him. There is no fight in Marvin. He didn’t push back at all!!! Heck, he fumbled away a first down in that game. Do you remember Marvin fumbling against SD after getting hit on the leg opposite the ball? When is the last time that Marvin broke a tackle? Made a serious “football” play in the playoffs? TOUGH QUESTIONS HUH? Now, my rant only applies to the field. The locker room is another story. TO does have issues and we all know that but to say that Marvin is better than TO is a reach. Has Marvin signed a contract anywhere?
by 33rd Street on Mar 12, 2009 6:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Personally
When I heard TO was a free agent I initially thought that it would be interesting if they Colts gave him a shot. But after thinking about it for about 1 minute, I realized that is he really worth all the trouble at all anymore? Absolutely not. I figured in the right situation he could be ok, but there is no right situation for him. He is an absolute cancer to any team he is on. I mean how the hell do people not realize after all these years that this guy is out of his mind? The only two places he would possibly shut up at would be at New England with no Randy Moss or Indy with no Reggie Wayne. He would only not cry all the time if he was the number 1 receiver for Manning or Tom Brady. Tony Romo and Donovan Mcnabb are great quartberbacks, and they had a great supporting cast but he still found reasons to whine. Dallas would have been a super bowl favorite without him destroying any team unity they had. He will never win a super bowl because teams can not win with this guy killing chemistry. He was a fantastic athlete but his insecurities have hurt him and any team hes played for. And at this stage in TO’s career Lee Evans is better, but they wont be able to thrown to him more or TO will start his usual routine. Does anyone really think Trent Edwards will keep him happy? If he is in any way quiet this year it will be because he wants to play for a better team next year…he probably wont be the best receiver, but will definately expect himself to get thrown to the most. Sorry for the rant…im not impying that Owens was not a talented receiver in any way. If anything he was one of the best in that regard. But his abilities did not overcome what a bad teammate he is.
by ColtsPurdueFanFromKY on Mar 12, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's never been a problem in his first season with a club
Look at his numbers in the first year at Philly and Dallas – outstanding.
By all accounts TO’s an incredibly genuine, nice, hard working player. He just doesn’t trust anyone and expects you to screw him over given the opportunity, He’s a paranoid egomaniac – but it seems to take a year or so for the kerazee to come out.
Buffalo are gambling on getting a season of the good TO. That’s worth $6.5m. It’s much higher risk/reward than going for a guy like Harrison, but I don’t think Harrison offers the double team taking, field stretching matchup problems that TO does at this stage of his career. Which is why he’s still a free agent.
Oh, and TO would destroy himself at New England and Indy too. He just can’t help it – he permanently expects the stab in the back so he always, always, always stabs first – even when it’s entirely unnecessary.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 13, 2009 6:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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