Will new Colts defensive coordinator Larry Coyer change the Colts defense?
by Brad Wells on Mar 12, 2009 9:47 PM EDT
in Colts Analysis
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PrintThis comment from monstersbox got me thinking:
A 4-2-5 [defense] is a nickel. It’s called a strong nickel or a big nickel. But with 3 safeties instead of 3 DBs while playing what looks like a 4-4-3. They only used it when Bob came back, but they used it. Hagler was playing like a safety when he was starting at WILL though.
Our discussion was on what kind of defense Tony Dungy's Tampa-2 evolved into after his seven years in Indy. Obviously, his defense in Tampa Bay was the gold standard for the Tampa-2. In Indy, because he did not have Warren Sapp (defensive tackle), Derrick Brooks (linebacker), or Ronde Barber (cornerback), Coach Dungy had to make adjustments. Indeed, the Super Bowl-winning Colts players who manned the positions made famous by the gentlemen just listed were Raheem Brock (defensive tackle), Cato June (Linebacker), and Nick Harper (cornerback).
One of Dungy's tweaks during his coaching tenure was to deploy a base 4-2-5 look. This means 4 defensive linemen, 2 linebackers, and 5 defensive backs. Colts fans saw this alignment extensively during the 2006 playoff run, along with a standard Cover-3 look, which saw Bob Sanders leave his safety spot in a 4-2-5 look, drop down in the box as a linebacker, and proceed to decapitate opposing ball carriers.
We refer to this defense here as the Bob Sanders Beatdown Defense, or BSBD.
The Cover 3 defense
Photo: i109.photobucket.com
Again, this is a variation, a tweak, of the famed Tampa-2. Is it "pure" Tampa-2? Of course not. If you ran Tampa-2 all day, opposing offenses would pick you apart. Variation of some kind is necessary to keep opponents honest. It is the degree of variation that often separates the Bill Belichicks from the Tony Dungys. Our old fiend Billy Boy deploys a wide variety of variation for each of his defensive game plans. It is a reason rookies and younger player rarely thrive in the Patriots defense. The notable exception was last year's Jerod Mayo.
With Dungy retired, and his longtime defensive coordinator Ron Meeks implementing another Tampa-2 variation in Carolina, the Colts brought in old time coordinator Larry Coyer. Coyer's last defensive coordinator job was with the Broncos, and as we have documented since rumors of his hiring surfaced, Coyer blitzed A LOT in Denver even though he ran a variation of the Tampa-2 there. After Mike Shanahan stupidly fired Coyer in 2007, he went on to be the assistant head coach at Tampa Bay, taking in Monte Kiffin's new variations on the Tampa-2, using more man coverage, more safety blitzes, and utilizing the speed he had at linebacker.
With Indy, Coyer will add his own wrinkles, but make no mistake: This is a Tampa-2 defense with Tampa-2 players. The focus is on speed, not size. Burst, not power. Attention to detail, not over game planning. Smaller, more compact players who can hit and tackle with power are valued more than players who are "big" and "strong." Yes, certain position do require a degree of height and weight. The NT needs to be near 300 pounds. The SAM linebacker needs to be probably 240-250 pounds. The safety absolutely must be able to hit like a runaway cement truck driving wild through a church on Sunday.
Coyer has players like Bob Sanders, Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, Antoine Bethea, and Gary Brackett to implement his tweaks. But, he also has Kelvin Hayden, Marlon Jackson, and a young crop of hard-hitting DBs that could thrive if he deploys a base 4-2-5 defense. This defense could also utilize Melvin Bullitt more, as Bullitt really seemed to have breakout year in 2008 replacing Bob for so many games.
Key to this defense is the nose tackle. When Indy ran it in the playoffs in 2006, they had Booger McFarland (300 pounds, 6'2). When they ran it in 2007, they had Ed Johnson (300 pounds, 6'2). Last year, with the revolving door at DT because of injuries, retirements, and weed, a 4-2-5 defense was not practical.
How will Larry Coyer utilize Bob Sanders in 2009?
Photo: local.content.compendiumblog.com
Regardless of what Coyer implement, the front line of the Colts defense is in desperate need of shoring up. Indy has re-signed Daniel Muir, and they will likely re-sign have Antonio "Mookie" Johnson signed to a two year deal (tip to GoHorse88 in the comments). Both provide excellent depth at NT. But Indy needs a full time starter at NT, and the draft or rookie free agency are the only places they will likely get it.
If Coyer gets more front line help, we might just see some interesting tweaks as a new chapter in the Tampa-2 bible is written in Indy.
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Wouldn't the BSBD be
a 4-3-4 by personnel and a 4-4-3 by alignment. Unless I was seriously missing something they didn’t take off an LB for a safety and bring Sanders into the box until late this past season.
They ball when they can and I'm ballin' by nature
Addicted to the game like Jordan and Peyton
-Lil Wayne "Fireman"
4-2-5
You could come out in a 4-2-5 look, then drop Bob down in the box as another LBer, making it 4-3-4. Basically, anytime Bob creeps down towards the LOS, it’s the Bob Sanders Beatdown Defense.
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it really reads like you're saying they were running a 4-2-5 in 2006
which I don’t think they did (besides obviously the nickel with Marlin Jackson in the slot). They lost their 3rd safety (Doss) early in the season so I doubt that they were bringing on the 4th guy (Giordano, I think) in for a LB.
that’s what I mean by the BSBD, the version of it that we saw before late 2008.
They ball when they can and I'm ballin' by nature
Addicted to the game like Jordan and Peyton
-Lil Wayne "Fireman"
by shake n bake on Mar 13, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
You're getting hung up on listed positions
Who played WILL in 2006? Cato June. What did he play like with the Colts? Like a safety. Why did he suck in TB? Because they moved him to SAM.
BBS is correct. When Bob would come into the box, he didn’t always blitz, but he gave the look like he was going to. Sometimes he would drop into coverage and Cato would attack the line. Sometimes Bob would come on the blitz and Cato would drop back into coverage. Sometimes they both blitz, and sometimes they both dropped into coverage. That IS a 4-2-5. Just because he was listed as a WILL linebacker doesn’t mean that’s what they were using him as.
People ran the 3-4 for years before they actually started calling it a 3-4. They’d just say a DE was playing off the line. Hell, when Brock would come in and stand up and back off the line we were playing a 3-4.
June would be listed as a big safety on numerous teams. In fact, several teams have safeties that are bigger than him. Keiaho is 224 lbs and plays WILL. June is 227 and played WILL.
That was my point about looking to the draft and getting one of the “big” safeties and not a “small” LB. Like I said, it’s possibly the reason why we let Keiaho and Hagler walk. And it’s also why I wasn’t completely shocked when the Colts were showing some heavy interest in Hamlin. Hamlin played in a 4-2-5 at Clemson and he’s a 214 lb safety. He’s also faster than all of our LBs, although I think he ran slower than he wanted to but could be a target for the Colts.
Here’s a list of decent sized “safeties” that would be comparable to our “linebackers”.
Sean Smith – 6’4 214 lbs 4.47 40
William Moore – 6’0 221 lbs 4.49 40
Patrick Chung – 5’11 212 lbs 4.54 40
Nic Harris – 6’2 234 lbs 4.78 40
Chip Vaughn – 6’1 221 lbs 4.51 40 (WF runs a 3-3-5 zone system and I definitely wouldn’t be surprised if we took him)
Michael Hamlin – 6’2 214 lbs 4.61 40
David Bruton – 6’2 219 lbs 4.46 40
Otis Wiley – 6’1 213 lbs
Courtney Greene – 6’0 212 lbs 4.53 40
Stephen Hodge – 6’0 234 lbs 4.54 40 (TCU player which is THE 4-2-5 team)
Right now we have a MIKE in Brackett and a SAM in Session. Where is the question on our team? WILL.
William Moore’s scouting report from walter :
"Strengths: Terrific size and bulk with sub 4.5 speed … Great instincts to diagnose the play … Comfortable in run support and does not hesitate to lay the wood … Adept to creating turnovers (10 interceptions, 4 forced fumbles in past three seasons) … Playmaker who is always around the football … Versatility to play strong or free safety, but is more well suited to be in the box … Natural ability to blitz and get in the opponents backfield … Outstanding leader. "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCGLk4mKnho
Notice the defensive alignment in this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWRY-ixLBTA
Sean Smith :
“Smith is an excellent athlete with great size-speed (4.52) combination. He played cornerback during most of his time (he actually began his career at WR) at Utah, but will need to switch positions in the NFL. Smith reads the quarterback and breaks quickly to get outside and help cornerbacks on deep routes, and is able to close quickly on passes in front of him. With very good backpedaling speed, Smith is adept at reading the QB’s eyes. While he has good, not great, recovery speed, he does not get sucked in by play action and has the speed and agility to get to areas in a hurry. Smith also has great burst to finish, making strong tackles. Smith is a very good run defender who has the instincts and speed to chase down runners.”
Chung :
“He has good speed and reportedly runs a sub- 4.6 forty yard dash. Chung is very strong for his size and will be a workout warrior at this year’s combine. Chung is the number 2 rated safety prospect for the 2009 draft according to Scouts.com. Chung was a second team Associated Press All-American in 2007. He does well in coverage and does an excellent job of supporting the run and plays near the line in Oregon’s defensive scheme.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37qMvwSMwo&feature=related
Something else to note blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmP68LFXfYc&feature=related
Chip Vaughn :
"Terrific size and bulk…Superb tackler…Real tough and physical…Will deliver the big hit…Very active and aggressive…Good range…Does a fantastic job against the run…Smart and instinctive…Very productive. "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sgbGgTFZ6k&feature=PlayList&p=E3C870246F6436B0&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4 (It’s not a youtube postfest without the stereotypical football highlight song)
Hamlin (mocking the draft) :
“Strengths: Hamlin is an intelligent four-year starter who reads and reacts to plays quickly. Hamlin is one of the biggest defensive backs in this year’s class and he uses that size to his advantage. He’s a solid tackler, but can really hit. Solid playing in the box. Understands where the runner is going to best close holes. Named a team captain two consecutive years. In zone coverage, Hamlin uses his intelligence to break on the ball. Solid high-point agility to break up passes.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj0Eil3uRPU
I’m being completely honest when I say I think we might be seeing a “safety” as our “WILL”. Not to mention the demand for safeties in general is low especially when compared to OLBs. The person with the best combination of tackling and coverage who is used in multiple ways is Bob right now. Personally, I think another version of Bob with maybe slightly less coverage skills and even better tackling that weighs 15-30 lbs more than him would be perfect for our system. Several of those players I listed not only have at least equivalent ability to play the run as Keiaho, but are almost the same size, much faster, and I’m pretty certain would be better in coverage. That’s what Cato did, too bad he wasn’t great in the run.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
Oh, here's Hodge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScAP30KW_h0
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
I guess I just don't usually look at formations as open to interpretation
They ball when they can and I'm ballin' by nature
Addicted to the game like Jordan and Peyton
-Lil Wayne "Fireman"
by shake n bake on Mar 13, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
uh oh
are we starting another 4-2-5 debate?
Also, I love the line “because of injuries, retirements, and weed”. If you didn’t know what happened last year, that would look like a really odd thing to say. If anything, that’s more likely to describe why my band broke up rather than the Colts DT position.
"and they will likely re-sign Antonio "Mookie" Johnson."
Mookie is already re-signed – apparently we poached him from Titans with a 2 year deal attached. At least, I think that’s how this this works.
Check out IndyStar’s list of signed players:
DT Antonio Johnson; contract: 2 years, $680,000 in 2008; salary: $385,000; signed through: 2009
I really feel like they might just have Mookie and Danny Muir battle it out for the NT spot and try to target a really talented athlete for UT. With so many teams switching to a 3-4 defense NTs are going to come costly this season and will be over-valued in the draft.
Go Horse!
If the question...
is whether or not Coyer will run the “Big Nickel”, then the answer is a resounding YES!! When Coyer was in Denver he used DB Sam Brandon in this role. Brandon, at 6-2, 200lbs, had the size to face up against the bigger TE’s in the AFC West(Gonzo and Gates).
Brandon was awesome in 2005 when the Broncos went 13-3, and was having a great year again in 2006 when he blew out his knee against the Steelers. The Broncos were 6-2 when the injury occurred and went 3-5 the rest of the way to miss the playoffs. Brandon never made it back, and it alot of ways neither has the Broncos defense.
Obviously Brandon wasn’t nearly as talented as Bob Sanders is, but bringing in Brandon to be physical with TE’s and 3rd WRs allowed the Broncos to bring John Lynch close to the line of scrimmage. That allowed the Broncos to do all that blitzing Coyer was know for in Denver. Without Brandon, the Broncos couldn’t afford to do that.
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interesting note
thanks for sharing, that definitely explains some of how the Denver D worked under Coyer and an possible explanation for why it fell apart. That role is definitely one that requires a specific kind of player that is not easily replaced.
Regardless of what you want to call it...
I don’t want the Colts bringing Bob down into the box too much!! Too much BSBD equates into too much Bob in the training room and not on the field!! That is why it is absolutely imperative to shore up the tackle position so that we don’t need to rely on bringing Bob down into the box!!
Agreed
Unless they also draft another Bob Sanders type guy to rotate in and out. I don’t see Bullitt filling that role, he seems more like a cover safety than a run-assist strong safety to me.
Also
How does Wheeler fit into all of this? And would they still like to draft a future replacement of Brackett at MIKE this year? I say YES.
Wheeler
Wheeler fits in as a SAM backer, I think. If Indy goes 4-2-5, then likely Wheeler is on the sidelines while Session and Brackett are 2 the LBers.
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Wheeler played mostly WILL at Georgia Tech. Session played SAM well last season, and is only going to improve with more playing time. Moving Session from SAM to WILL would hurt more than it would help. I say leave Session at SAM, get Wheeler more playing time at WILL, and let’s kick some @$$.
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Injuries?
My only concern with this method is injuries…having so many safeties (even larger safeties) on the field and less LBs will force those safeties to make tackles, basically what the Colts have been doing since they adopted the T2. This seems likely to cause an injury effect with all of the high impact coming from the defensive backfield. Do you think they would continue to play a base 4-3 most of the time and spice it up with some 4-2-5 action, or just go 4-2-5 most of the time?
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