Tampa Bay no longer running Tampa-2: How does this affect the Colts?
by BigBlueShoe on Mar 4, 2009 1:49 PM EST
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Ew! Old man sweat.
Photo: cache.daylife.com
The retirement of Tony Dungy and the semi-retirement of Monte Kiffin (yes, coaching for his friggin son at Tennessee sure sounds like semi-retirement to me) really meant the end of an era for the NFL. Just like Tom Landry and Chuck Noll before them, Dungy and Kiffin revolutionized the way NFL teams play defense. From 1996-today, teams around the NFL (and college ranks) used the simple, technique and detail oriented scheme that Dungy and Kiffin masterminded in Tampa Bay when they coached together. Both men had worked together previously in Minnesota, with Dungy as defensive coordinator and Kiffin as his linebackers coach, but it was not until the league saw the dramatic turnaround of the Buccaneers in the late-1990s that teams started dumping old schemes in favor of the "Tampa-2."
We all know what the "Tampa-2" is, and if you don't I suggest reading this. Just like the "West Coast" offense or the "Zone Blitz" defense, the Tampa-2 changed the way teams played, coached, and even drafted. Players who played safety in college but were too slow to play the same position in college were switched to linebacker in the Tampa-2, like Derrick Brooks and Cato June. Now, with Jon Gruden fired in Tampa Bay, new head coach Raheem Morris (who was brought into the league by Tony Dungy) is junking the defense that made Tampa Bay famous and employing the old, sorry defensive scheme the Tampa-2 put out of fashion:
Jim Bates' "Two Fatties in the Middle" defense.
I'll just come out and say it- Jim Bates is a horrible defensive coordinator. Sorry Bucs fans, but your defense and your team is going to suck for a while. Ask Denver fans if they think Bates' style of defense meshes well in today's NFL. In a press conference yesterday, new Bucs General Manager Mark Dominik laid out what kind of defense Tampa Bay will deploy in 2009 (via Buc 'Em):
" [We have] young players that fit this new Jim Bates system in terms of defensive tackles and what we’re asking them to do. That was a big part of why we wanted to get Ryan Sims signed prior to free agency. He’s a young, bigger bodied guy that can push the pocket. With Greg Peterson (’07 draft) and Dre Moore (’08 draft), they’re big bodied guys that are - I think - able to step into those roles and they’ll get their opportunity to step into those roles."
...
"Part of it is the system that Coach Bates puts them in. Again, just like we were talking about with the other guys that are under contract now. You create pressure in the pocket so you can push the pocket back and pin your ears back off the edge. We’re expecting a lot of big things from Gaines Adams.
Translation- The Bucs are going to get roasted in 2009. This kind of defense was made obsolete back in 1999, when a second year QB named Peyton Manning took one look at it and said, "Hey, let's run no huddle on these punks all game." Sure enough, by halftime, those two big "space-eaters" in the middle are out of breath because the Colts had run them ragged. With the fat DTs panting, Manning and the offense then started running misdirection, play-action, and then BAM! Big play to the WR for a TD. Bates' system, when he was in Miami, was routinely carved up by Manning. When Bates brought the system to Denver, Mike Shanahan was so terrified by what Manning would do to it that he junked his entire defensive scheme for the 2007 regular season game against the Colts and deployed a specific scheme just to beat Indy. He benched his starting DTs, inserted smaller but faster DTs, and hoped they'd be able to keep up with Indy's No-Huddle offense.
Denver was crushed 38-20.
I wrote this just after the game:
Here's where I will bash Shanahan, because he violated a cardinal NFL rule, imho. If you can't beat a team with what you are, then don't bother showing up at all.
...
I've said all this and I haven't gotten to my favorite part: Denver's defensive scheme. Denver fired their defensive coordinator last year (who ran a Cover 2 scheme) and hired Jim Bates, an over-rated dinosaur in terms of NFL coordinators. Bates employs a 4-3 scheme that requires the two DTs to be big, fat, slow, and lumbering sacks of flesh. These massive behemoths must take on two or three interior blockers while the linebackers and DEs make plays. Bates made this scheme work wonders in Miami. Just one problem: That was over seven years ago.
In today's NFL, this kind of defensive scheme simply can't work. Why? No-huddle offenses. Teams like Cincy, Indy, Pittsburgh, and now New England will simply go no-huddle, requiring those big, fat, slow, and lumbering sacks of flesh at DT to actually run a little bit. So, what did Shanahan do to combat this stark reality?
He sat his run stuffers.
Whenever I read pundits saying that teams need to employ "big run stuffers" at the DT spot, I sit back and laugh. If you do deploy "big space eaters," the other team's QB is going no-huddle on you and will run over them as they gasp for breath. This is the system Tampa Bay is now running. This is the successor to the famed Tampa-2. What this really will do is put Tampa Bay in the doormat of the NFC South, because Drew Brees and Matt Ryan are going to pick it apart.
So, what does all this mean for Indy?
Well, it means there is one less team running Tampa-2, which means there is one less team drafting players that fit Tampa-2. It means there will be less competition to sign rookie free agents. The downside is it means there is one less team to trade players with. One of the biggest trades in Colts history was Tampa Bay giving them DT Booger McFarland for a second round pick in 2006. Without McFarland, the Colts do not win Super Bowl 41.
I might be wrong about Bates in 2009, but I don't think I am. I've seen his defense fail far too often to have any faith in it. It might have worked pre-salary cap, but into today's market your team must be able to stop the pass. As I've saif repeatedly: Stopping the pass is priority over stopping the run. And Bates' defense is not very cap friendly. It requires two man coverage corners, big linebackers, large DTs, and pass rushing DEs. None of those come cheap. Tampa Bay is in deep trouble on defense in 2009, and the Colts have one less team to worry about on draft day and game day.
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Ha
I remember what you wrote after that game pretty much word for word.
That was a fun game to watch :)
by furrycolt on Mar 4, 2009 2:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Short-term/long-term
In the short term this is good news for Indy as there is less competition for specific players and types of players. The pool of potential T-2 guys in college is about the same today as it was a year ago.
But long-term, if there is less perceived demand in the pros, then there will be fewer teams prepping players for the T-2 in college and finding the right guys in the draft and UFAs will likely get tougher. (In Polian we trust) Still likely to be cheaper to assemble a D since there is less competition for certain types of guys. But finding them might be tougher.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
by Bobman on Mar 4, 2009 2:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
The college game doesn’t get dictated to by the pro game, it’s the other way around imo.
by furrycolt on Mar 4, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
College and Pro Game
I don’t think either has a major impact on the other. In the college game, there are all sorts of teams that do well with quirky offenses and defenses. Vince Young’s success at Texas or Tebow’s success at Florida in the spread doesn’t mean that NFL offenses will pick it up, and there hasn’t been a huge switch to zone blitz systems in college. If anything, the college game (at each school) is dictated by the athletes you have (schools unable to land ridiculous athletes like Kansas, Mizzou, or Texas Tech move to the spread to take advantage of limited athleticism on defenses), while the NFL game is dictated by the coaching staff’s philosophy.
by Stadtfeld on Mar 4, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
college-pros
So you think that the proliferation of pro-style offenses started in college and migrated upwards? IMO that is a recruiting technique to (a) win games and (b) recruit the most ambitious talent out of HS who thinks they’ll be more attractive to the pros when they are drafted since they already know the system and as a result, © win even more games since you have both a good system and the best recruits. Notice how few option, wishbone and wing-t offenses there are in college these days? If you installed one, you would never be able to man it—the NFL-caliber recruits would keep away in droves.
I know that is an offensive example but it the above is logical, the same probably works for D.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
by Bobman on Mar 4, 2009 3:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
New Name for the Tampa D
Can we officially dub it the “Tampa 2 Fatties” or TFT?
just asking….
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
by Bobman on Mar 4, 2009 3:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Alternatively
Tampa-2 may have to be renamed to Indy-2, or for a more modern feel… Indy 2.0
by LovinBlue on Mar 4, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a forest is different from a tree.
bates’ miami defense was pretty damn good statistically. so was his green bay defense if i recall correctly. the fact that one of the top 5 qbs of all time, surrounded by great to all-time-great players, running the EXACT kind of offense meant to counter this defense – the fact that these factors led to bates’ d getting torched, well it’s just not all that compelling. also, remember shanahan couldn’t draft himself out of a cardboard box. it’s not like bates had the right kind of personnel to run his scheme effectively.
the bucs will look like crap next year no doubt, but it will have very little to do with bates’ scheme.
they have no qb.
a mediocre-at-best o-line.
just okay receivers.
they got rid of the heart and sould of their defense, and barber isn’t getting any younger…
not to mention the fact that their division is no joyride.
no doubt bates may be the fall guy, but i have no inherent beef with the “2 fatties in the middle” defense. like any other scheme it just requires the correct personnel, and the understanding that certain opposing schemes are going to cause fits. (see also: the colts’ defense against a power running game, the patriots’ spread offense against a sufficient pass rush, the ravens’/eagles’ defenses against big-play/deep-throwing offenses, and the jags’ d against 11 warm bodies.)
by saintnixon on Mar 4, 2009 3:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The problem
The problem is in order to get that correct personnel, you have to break your cap. “2 fatties” do not grow on trees, and they need to be good in order for the D to work. This is not including the two speed rushers you desperately need, the big LBers, and the man-to-man corners.
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by BigBlueShoe on Mar 4, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and to respond
Colts do quite well stopping power-rushing teams, thank you. Teams like Jacksonville, Tennessee, Denver, Baltimore, and KC have all tried power rushing formations against Indy at one time, and lost. Badly. Baltimore tried it in 2006 and got crushed. They tried it again last year, and got crushed. Unlike the Bucs, the Colts closed out the 2008 regualr season by playing well, and not choking away their last 4 or 5 games.
Thanks.
SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account and post a diary, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.
by BigBlueShoe on Mar 4, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read
Playing well against who? The lions? The bengals? The Jags? And the resting Titans? Woo. Did you even watch the games? And then what happened after that? Oh got ran all over by an 8-8 Chargers team without their starting running back…And your memory seems to be very selective. You mention playing well against rushing teams and bring up 2006 against the Ravens and blah, blah,blah. But maybe you forgot about that season, or maybe forgot to watch those games too. You probably want to forget it but here I’ll remind you…the Colts allowed over 100 yards rushing in every regular season game that season as well as 26 rushing TDs, aand…hold it…375 yards(on the ground) by the “power running” Jags that you claimed to have stopped.(The Jags also rushed for another 236 in a loss this year)
Which brings me to my next point, Booger McFarland. When I read that I couldn’t believe that you had dared even write that for anyone else to see. I’ll go back to what I said above, THE COLTS ALLOWED OVER 100 YARDS IN EVERY REGULAR SEASON GAME and that includes the games Booger was in. So to say that the Colts wouldn’t have won the Super Bowl without him that year is absurd. The presence of Bob Sanders is what made the difference. The Bucs came away with a steal in that one: a second round pick for Booger who played 11 games that season and not much after that. Oh and he was 29. And everyone on this board knows that the way to build a team is through the draft and a 2nd rounder is a big deal.
And you’re gonna criticize the Miami defense under Bates because Peyton carved them up? Peyton has played well against almost every scheme and different team, including your precious Tampa-2 against the team that invented it(See 2003 MNF and 2007). Peyton is just a good QB, he can carve up anybody on any given Sunday. And especially in the T2 where those deep outs are consistently open.
And lastly, what is your beef with Bates? Did he wrong you in some way? His system has worked (GB and MIA) and it didn’t in Denver because they did not have the right personnel nor the dedication to changing it and Bates left.
I think it’s too early to tell how the Bucs will be this season. The offense has definitely improved but the defense has been left alone this offseason. I think it’s only fair to wait until the offseason’s over before writing them off. They should’ve probably been an 11-5 atleast had it not been to injuries on their d-line. For those that want to argue against this, don’t. Go look at how the Bucs did against the run at the beginning of the year with healthy DTs and then at the end when they were playing injured. The problem was simply lack of quality depth on the d-line and that hurt them at the end of the season.
BigBlueShoe, you need to watch more football and stop posting until you do.
by indy27 on Mar 5, 2009 5:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a few more things...
Cato June was a safety in college but Derrick Brooks was not. But Brooks was one of the fastest, most instinctive LBs in the game and probably could’ve played safety too; he was that fast.
Also, two fatties don’t work anymore? Uh, check back to the highlights of week 2 this year. Who is in the middle of that d-line? Oh yeahh, the Williamses. And how did you do against them? Hint: below 30 yards on the ground….yeah, 25. And the Colts should’ve lost that game had the Vikings kept running instead of letting Jackson take over in the redzone, leading to 5 field goals.
One last thing. You need to go back and look up when Bates was in charge of the Dolphins and see how Peyton played against them. I’ll just tell you, the Dolphins played pretty well, points-wise, especially considering the Colts were ranked as high as 2nd in points scored but only scored 20 or more points in 3 of the 6 meetings.
Oh yeah, and Coyer is the Bucs’ scraps. He was fired after coaching a position on a team with the greatest defense in the last decade. Good luck with that.
by indy27 on Mar 5, 2009 5:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
uhm
while I appreciate that someone else is taking up the ‘disagree with everything BBS says’ flag, I have to point out a minor flaw in your argument:
BBS was saying the colts do well vs. POWER running teams. Now, personally, I believe this is a misnomer, but he’s correct, in my mind, if you use different literature. The Colts defense is successful in stopping teams that have straight ahead runners.
Lendale White? poor YPC average. Chris Johnson? Much better.
Larry Johnson? poor YPC average.
Both Jaguars backs are pretty successful because they could cut back and because they used a lot of delays.
The Colts were successful against the steelers running attack. They were successful vs. the Raven’s running attack. They were successful against Green Bay’s running attack (good yardage numbers, tons of carries, only reason the running game looked good is because the Colts offense never had the ball), they were successful against LaDanian Tomlinson.
The Colts are able to beat teams that run in a straight line. They falter, because of their youth, against running backs that cut back, or against teams that employ a lot of shotgun draws.
I don’t tihnk that, under Meeks, there was any great mystery to running on the Colts, but it still required you do specific things and have appropriate personnel.
And while you laugh at the lions and bengals, I will say this: The Lions will go down in history as the greatest winless team ever. Now, that might sound like a joke to you, but with Dan Orlovsky at QB the team was surprisingly competitive. It would be absurd for them to use the #1 overall pick on a QB imo, because they have so many more glaring needs (OL, defense, and ownership being 3), and to just laugh at their offensive ability is to be naive and lazy and only look at the lolrecord instead of the loltruth. I’m not saying they are world beaters but they have a good RB, a world class WR, and a QB that, when he could stay in bounds, was above average.
In conclusion, I hate watching the Colts’ run defense, but I wrote an article last year, I believe after the Pitts game, going over the Colts’ rush defense. After, I believe, the win vs the Texans, the Colts would have, over a 6 game span, had a top 5 rush defense in the NFL based on YPC, Yards, Rushing TDs against, etc… One last point, teams rushing numbers will always be inflated against the Colts because the Colts almost always are in the top 3 in rushes faced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
by Nideak on Mar 5, 2009 7:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I’m not the only one who thought Orlovsky played pretty good last year.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
by KingRichard on Mar 5, 2009 8:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He did
How much that speaks of him is debatable having Johnson having some ridiculous plays and runs after the catch. He has good height and a good throwing motion. Some of his balls looked very nice, he could put some more muscle on and be hard to take down. He’s mobile. And I’m sorry, but just because a dude stepped out of bounds doesn’t mean that one mistake should totally describe him. First game, he watched that line allow QBs to be completely destroyed, they call in a pass play from the goal line, the outcome wasn’t totally surprising. It definitely was funny though. It’s pretty much the same thing as Jauron calling for a pass when they pretty much had the play locked up. Same with the WC game sadly. And the media and fans went from going “J.P. isn’t that bad! OMG worst QB in the league!!!!”
The Lions main problem was they refused to play Kevin Smith. Everytime he’d play, he did well. But for some reason, I guess they wanted to “groom” him because “grooming” is the way to go! Well, I guess I can’t say that’s the main problem, they had too many to be able to focus on one, but they might’ve won at least a game if he had been their starter.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
by monstersbox on Mar 5, 2009 8:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Man o’ man, I couldn’t agree more.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
by KingRichard on Mar 5, 2009 9:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not trying to make it something more than it is, but as someone that was forced to watch a lot more CFL than he wanted to, if there’s two things a good CFL QB should be able to do its: throw and go through reads. Orlovsky was (I have no clue how good he was in the CFL) a QB in the CFL. The CFL, if people don’t know, is a 6 route game (12 players instead of 11, 6 players running routes) and only 3 downs, so its a lot more passing and more reads to go through. I’m surprised more CFL QBs don’t come to the NFL at some point, but Moon and Garcia and Flutie show that its possible to make the conversion.
As for the Orlovsky safety, yea, it was a bad play, and you’d never see P do it, but come on. Enough was enough after a while, imo. I hate seeing these douchebags in the media that were either 1) failed players (im looking at you, Merril Hoge and Sean Salisbury) or 2) incompetent boobs (Emmitt Smith, to name one) (I guess I could include 3) drug addicts, too) it was funny, but not funny enough to rail on the guy for the next 15 years, as Im sure will be done.
The Lions getting rid of Orlovsky and drafting a QB with the #1 pick will just prove to me that they are the same ole lions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
by Nideak on Mar 5, 2009 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the CFL guys don’t convert over into the NFL with as much frequency as you think they would because it’s almost like the college and their love of the spread offense. The spread offense doesn’t prepare QB’s for the pro-style of taking snaps under center, the play action game, 3 5 and 7 step drops, etc. I’ve never watched the CFL before, but something tells me if they pass that much, they are probably playing from the shotgun a lot ya?
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
by KingRichard on Mar 6, 2009 8:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The reason why the CFL QBs
The reason why some CFL QBs come over and do well is because they’re the types of guys that, in general, were very good but didn’t LOOK like a NFL QB. I mean, Doug Flutie actually started a few games and went what, 10-5? But NOBODY could win with Flutie! Even when Buffalo was going to the playoffs, Rob Johnson was the guy! Rob Johnson had a 20/24 2 TD 294 yard game yo! And he’s 6’-4"!
If you have talent and know you can play and are a competitor, you don’t feel like being a backup everywhere you go. So some guys go over to a league where they can be a starting QB because they actually love the game. So basically what I’m saying, is that guys that are legit QBs but not in the eyes of the “experts” will go over there because they don’t fit the 6’5 240 lb QBs.
It’s pretty much what’s happening to Pat White right now. He’s looked better than all the QBs coming out, he did a great job at WVU, but he’s “too short”, “too fast to just be a QB” etc.
Garcia fought this his entire career. But all he did was take teams teams to the playoffs, have over 25k passing yards, a 2:1 TD to INT ratio, almost a 90 career QB rating (and it would’ve been if he didn’t play in Detroit), 2142 rushing yards and 26 rushing TDs. The dude had 187 TDs and started 117 games, that’s pretty damn good. The dude made 3 consecutive pro bowls and had 4 in total. And after his first two seasons playing, he only had losing records with Cleveland and Detroit. Not to mention, when he went 6-10 he had 4278 yards, 31 TDs, 10 INTs, and rushed for another 4 TDs. But then T.O. ran his mouth and called him gay. And the Eagles wouldn’t have made the playoffs if he didn’t go 5-1 when he replaced McNabb. I’m not saying he’s Peyton, but if he was as consistent as he was for his career (even factoring in shit teams), and played the same amount of games as Peyton, he’d have 38.5k passing yards, around 250 passing TDs, about 3300 rushing yards, and about 40 rushing TDs. That’s not a bad career by any stretch.
But like I said, sometimes people ignore what’s staring right at them. Garcia was replaced by Tim Rattay in SF, Luke McCown/Kelly Holcomb in Cleveland, and then both he and Harrington were replaced by Kitna.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
by monstersbox on Mar 6, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought so too.
But as stated above, it is easier to laugh at the 0-16 record than to actually look at things carefully. Orlovsky was fine. Their defense was not.
I think the Lions made a mistake trading him away along with a fourth round pick for Rosenfels. The Texans win that one.
by coltsfanawalt on Mar 5, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rosenfails went to the Vikings. Orlovsky left as a FA.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
by KingRichard on Mar 5, 2009 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thursday mornings are like Mondays for me.
What was I thinking? Let me try again.
Orlovsky was fine. He was not the problem for the Lions, but the QB always takes too much credit or heat. And he did have that one brain fart…
The Texans did well in farming off Rosenfels to MIN for a fourth round pick and then adding Orlovsky as a free agent. They didn’t downgrade their QB spot at all, plus added a draft pick.
The Lions blew it by letting him go while retaining Culpepper, in my opinion. They will probably draft a QB, but I think that is a mistake considering this year’s options. I think Aaron Curry is the smartest first pick, and whoever gets him will have done well.
by coltsfanawalt on Mar 5, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree. The Texans look pretty smart after making those moves to be honest. Schaub is completely overrated and has yet to prove anything as a QB. I think Orlovsky could easy go in there and take the starting position away from Schaub. Orlovsky benefited from having Calvin Johnson in Detroit, now (assuming he becomes the starter), he could be throwing to Andre Johnson, Owen Daniels, and Kevin Walter (who is pretty good imo). Toss Steve Slaton into the mix and Orlovsky is looking pretty good.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
by KingRichard on Mar 5, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If no other way,
Schaub has missed games due to injury. That may well be the opportunity that Orlovsky needs to show what he can do with more targets than just Calvin Johnson. If they pick a great player in the fourth, this will have been an amazing deal.
I think the Texans organization has done well. They got pounded for drafting Super Mario #1 overall, but that turned out to be the right choice, not to mention the second round choice of DeMeco Ryans that same draft. I think Okoye will develop into a great DT. If this pans out, they will be a force soon.
I don’t doubt that they could contend for the division this season. We’ll see.
by coltsfanawalt on Mar 5, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
Zone rush teams do well against the Colts because they push our lighter linemen back and while Freeney and Mathis rush to the outside, they isolate either one and use alot of cutbacks. The “power” rushers generally aren’t RBs that are going to cutback. So even if one of our defensive guys can’t tackle them, we swarm them.
As for the Vikings, that’s not a “two fatties in the middle”, it’s a T2. And I wouldn’t call them fatties, 6’3 317 is large, but not as big as most 3-4 NTs, Kevin Williams is very athletic and athletically built at his 6’5 310. What BBS is saying, is that using a Shaun Rogers (6’4 350) and another, non-athletic fat dude, does not equate to being a good line simply because they’re fat. Smaller, more athletic linemen generally chew up and spit out fat dudes. Not because they’re stronger, because they have the advantage of the snap count and can get off the ball faster. While the fat dudes may overpower them in the end, if they can get under their pads and on their heels, it doesn’t matter if they’re 400 lbs. Even Albert Haynesworth, who is large, is 6’6 320. But he’s not a “fatty”.
I mean if the only thing required to be a linemen is to be fat, I’m just going to start eating twinkies nonstop. Either I go into cardiac arrest or I’m a NFL linemen.
And Sproles didn’t “carve them up”. His damage was done on returning. He only had about 70 yards rushing and less than 100 total yards before OT with 1 TD and 1 fumble at the 1. And Baltimore tried it this year and got crushed. Honestly, the Colts performed better than expected against “rushing” teams this year.
And Coyer resigned in TB. Maybe they had the intention of firing him, but he came in as the D-line coach and left as the Assistant Head Coach. That’s kind of a promotion, not really scraps. It’s all good, we’ll see how we do with the scraps though. Can’t really defend the guy until I see what kind of defense he puts on the field.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
by monstersbox on Mar 5, 2009 8:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to add that the last coach Tampa fired, who Indy picked up worked up pretty well
I ain't tryin' do you, I'm just tryin' do me
Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
-Young Jeezy "I Luv It
by shake n bake on Mar 5, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
According to Nideak he sucks.
weeeeeee (ducks)
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
by KingRichard on Mar 5, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Im not going to dignify that with a response, but let me say this, were I to respond, the women would need protecting…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
by Nideak on Mar 5, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah tough guy?
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
by KingRichard on Mar 6, 2009 8:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do it!
I think the women who read this blog can take it! I mean, we ARE football fans, right? It isn’t exactly tiddly winks :D
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Mar 6, 2009 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
Nideak pretty much explained my opinion. You said they have trouble against power running teams. They don’t. If you’d said “cut back runners” or offenses that use the draw play, I agree that the Colts do have problems with that. But that is not what you said.
The Colts do very well stopping “power” running teams. Thin otherwise, and you are wrong. Guys like Chris Johnson and Darren Sproles are NOT power runners. They are cutback runner who make a living off misdirection, draws, and screens. The Colts historically have had problems stopping those kinds of plays.
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by BigBlueShoe on Mar 5, 2009 8:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Chris Johnson
Chris Johnson isn’t a power runner, but that Tennessee offense employs a power running system.
by Stadtfeld on Mar 5, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Freakin hilarious
I’m feeling better about predicting a 4th place finish for the Bucs next season
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by Jaxon on Mar 4, 2009 3:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm gonna pull a Vic Ketchup here.
It’s players, not plays. I’ve seen Colts fans for the past four or five years constantly go back and forth on whether or not the Tampa 2 is an effective defense. In 2005 and 2007, everybody was in agreement that it was a good system and that Tony Dungy and Ron Meeks were geniuses. In 2006 and 2008, some fans were practically calling for their heads. It really is puzzling; what could possibly make the Colts defense such a force one year, but suddenly cause a defensive collapse the next?
One answer: Players, not plays.
In 2005, we had David Thornton, a healthy Corey Simon, a super-human Dwight Freeney, and a super-human Bob Sanders. That made for a pretty spectacular defense. But come 2006, all of that was gone. Until the playoffs, those losses caused the Colts to field a pretty terrible defense.
Same thing happened in 2007. We had a DPOY Bob Sanders, a healthy secondary, a super-human Gary Brackett (who got cheated out of the probowl), a promising Freddy Keiaho, and a trio of good young tackles in Johnson, Pitcock, and Dawson. In 2008, all of it was gone. Once again, the defense played terrible.
I know Colts fans are probably going to go back to their normal ways again this season, even with a new defensive coordinator in Larry Coyer. One game, they’ll be getting their torches and pitchforks ready, and the next, they’ll be bowing at his feet. While I completely agree with BBS that the Cover 2 is effective, I want to remind everyone that football is still won on talent and discipline. My point is that that the Bucs will indeed suck this year, but its going to be more because they are lacking talent and are rebuilding than because they are using a new scheme.
Just wanted to get my feelings out on defensive schemes. Colts fans need to wake up and realize that it’s not always about grabbing a 300+ pound DT off the streets to suddenly make the defense better (Antonio Johnson being the exception).
by Aerostar193 on Mar 4, 2009 4:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
"a super-human Gary Brackett (who got cheated out of the probowl),"
Cannot agree enough.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
by Bobman on Mar 4, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So everyone is in agreement...
The Bucs will suck this year
Please, please draft a big Defensive Tackle. Please?
by skywalker on Mar 4, 2009 4:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Players
Just because teams are switching away from the T2 in favor of a 3-4 or whatever scheme doesn’t necessarily mean a ton of players will drop in our lap. Maybe LBs, but players we’d use as a DE would now become 3-4 OLBs, UTs would now become 3-4 DEs etc. Talent is talent. Would they be as good? Maybe, maybe not. But teams will still be drafting players that would fit our system even if we’re the only team that uses a T2.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
by monstersbox on Mar 4, 2009 9:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Indy and the Cover 2
At the moment, the personnel on the Colts pretty much ensures 2009 will be another season running the Cover 2; but with Caldwell in charge and Meeks getting axed, how long is the Tampa 2 going to be run in Indy? Caldwell has already asserted that the Colts are going to be more of an aggressive defense…
by Stadtfeld on Mar 4, 2009 11:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
aggresive doesn't mean not Tampa-2
look at the Bears, they’ll probably run less of the pure, classic T2 as time goes on, but Coyer was hired from Tampa and the personnel locks them into at least a similar style for a good while.
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Last album did two, I'm just tryin' do three.
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by shake n bake on Mar 5, 2009 12:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the bit about ‘big fat DTs’ at the end of the article is a bit of an over simplification of the truth.
Can you exploit teams that play two NT sized players in the middle? Yes. Do larger DTs have a place on the field in 4-3s? Yes. You are rarely going to find DTs that are Reggie White or John (Jon?) Randle.
I started doing something and lost my train of thought, but I think Denver’s problems had more to do with personnel than scheme. Their DTs, regardless of size, werent that good.
Its hard to find good DTs, in general. Go through all the teams in the league that run a 4-3 defense (cover-2 or otherwise) and list who you think is actually good.
On the flip side, as I was typing this I had a revelation: teams that run a 3-4 are always said to have a good NT. Every 3-4 team out there has a good NT? Either NTs are substantially easier to find than good 4-3 NTs, or the 3-4 is able to mask bad line play easier with superior LBs. (might be a mix, dunno, lets talk about it, I’m sure we can get some walls of text going.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
by Nideak on Mar 5, 2009 3:51 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
3-4
3-4 defenses without a pro bowl caliber NT are garbage. Cleveland’s defense was complete and utter crap until they got Shaun Rogers. Rogers at least made running against them hard. The NT in a 3-4 (be it zone blitz or Pats hybrid) must engage multiple blockers and dominate them. This allows the LBers to make plays. Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Kris Jenkins, Rogers, and Jay Ratliff are all excellent NTs. All play in 3-4 style defenses. Doesn’t matter who your LBer or DBs are. If you do not have a lights out NT, the 3-4 simply does not work.
And such NTs do not grow on trees.
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by BigBlueShoe on Mar 5, 2009 8:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Haloti Ngata is becoming a pretty good NT as well.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
by KingRichard on Mar 5, 2009 9:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ngata = Beast
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by MrNFL on Mar 5, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know how 3-4s work, I guess my point, which I didn’t articulate well is, list the 3-4 teams in the league:
Cowboys, Patriots, Dolphins, Steelers, Ravens, Browns, Chargers, am I missing any? Probably, but I can’t think of who… any how, which team has a bad NT? The browns two years ago, but other than that?
I realize they aren’t easy to find, but, but its easier to find 1 of 7 than 1 of 25, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGdAPjcgaM&eurl=http://www.only17points.com/&feature=player_embedded
by Nideak on Mar 5, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dungy did not hire Morris, Brooks did not play Safety
I’m not even going to address your opinion on the T2 and the current state of the Bucs defense…I just wanted to correct your facts that Dungy did not bring Morris into the NFL, he was hired by Gruden/Kiffin. Brooks played LB at Florida State, not safety.
by Frank784 on Mar 5, 2009 11:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
You’re wrong on both counts.
The first:
“We all owe Tony a great debt because he set the bar so high for all of us coaches,” said newly hired Tampa Bay head coach Raheem Morris, who was picked by Dungy for his first NFL job.
And the second:
Brooks started his career at FSU as a safety and became one of two true freshman to earn a varsity letter.
I’m happy for your comment and I appreciate your words, but please don’t come here and tell me I’m wrong and not back it up with anything.
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by BigBlueShoe on Mar 5, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously Frank784
I do indeed appreciate you posting. Just wanted to make it clear I was not pulling my info out of my rear end.
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by BigBlueShoe on Mar 5, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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