NFL.com got it wrong, Peyton is the best #1 overall pick

by shake n bake on Apr 14, 2009 6:15 PM EDT in Analysis Comment 54 comments

NFL.com recently published a piece on the best player to be taken at each slot of the first round. The number 1 overall spot went not to 3 time League MVP, 4 time All-Pro, 9 time Pro Bowler (all before his 33rd birthday) Peyton Manning, but to John Elway. Elway is a HOF QB, but he's clearly not the passer Peyton has shown himself to be through his first 11 years in the league and as the league honors show and wasn't as highly regarded in his day as Peyton is in his (in addition to being vastly inferior statistically).

QB	Comp	Att	Comp%	Yards	TDs	INTs	Y/A	Y/C	ANY/A	QB Rate
Elway	4,123	7,250	56.9	51,475	300	226	7.1	12.5	5.2	79.9
Peyton	3,839	5,960	64.4	45,628	333	165	7.7	11.9	6.4	94.7

Usually it would be unfair to compare a player in his prime to a retired player with per season numbers because most stick around past their prime dragging down their average, but both popular opinion and the stats say Elway went out on top with 2 Superbowl wins, two Pro Bowl trips and two above career average statistical seasons. Here's the same table with Completions, Attempts, Yards, TDs and INTs all expressed as per season.

QB	Comp	Att	Comp%	Yards	TDs	INTs	Y/A	Y/C	ANY/A	QB Rate
Elway	258	453	56.9	3,217	19	14	7.1	12.5	5.2	79.9
Peyton	349	542	64.4	4,148	30	15	7.7	11.9	6.4	94.7

Despite shouldering a much larger role in the offense with almost 100 more attempts per season Peyton was a far more efficient passer, completing 7.5% more of his passes, gaining .8 more yards per throw and over a yard more per dropback (adjusted for TDs/INTs).

Elway went out on top, which makes people forget how long he took to get there. Elway didn't have a season with a QB Rating over 90 for the first DECADE of his career as a starter (for comparison Jeff Garcia who is now the backup in Oakland had a QB rating of 90 last year) and never had a single season as high as Peyton's career rating of 94.7. Peyton blows Elway out of the water as a passer. It's not a product of the Eras either. Peyton's 3rd season, just two years after Elway retired was superior to ANY year Elway had in Yardage, TDs, QB Rating and ANY/A and better than all but one year in Comp % and yards per attempt.

Rexx of Baltimore Beatdown (which is where I found the link to the story) cited Elway's legs as a reason he's a better QB.

It's true that Elway did more with his legs than Peyton. Averaging 213 yards on the ground and 2.1 TDs to Peyton's 65 yards and 1.5 TDs, but first of all 150 rushing yards and half a TD doesn't nearly make up the massive gap between the two as a passer and secondly with all that extra running around Elway's ball security was an issue. Elway fumbled 137 times in his 16 year career. Elway fumbled as many times in a 5 years stretch from 1991 to 1995 as Peyton has fumbled in his 11 year career (52). 150 rushing yards doesn't seem like a much of a bargain when it comes at the cost of 4 extra fumbles.

Finally we'll bring the subjective opinion of the football media into the picture. As I said in the opening. Peyton is a 3 time League MVP, 4 time All-Pro, 9 time Pro Bowler (all before his 33rd birthday).

Elway on the other hand was never named an all pro, however he was named league MVP once, and made 9 Pro Bowls in his 16 seasons.

In five more years (which spanned his late bloomer prime rather than a decline) Elway made the same number of Pro Bowls, was named All-Pro 4 less times, and won two less league MVPs.

Finally I'll end with the winning. Even the measures I hate and think are useless and only believed in by the ignorant and idiotic like Peyton better.

True Elway wears one more ring than Peyton, but he had none through his first 11 years, while Peyton has taken home a title. Through the first 14 years of Elways career he was .500 in the playoffs. Peyton sits a game under .500 through 11 years.

In the regular season too, Peyton has won games at a higher clip .665 to .640

Peyton Manning has been a vastly superior passer, was more far dominant over his comtemporary QBs, won a SB earlier with plenty of time to match or pass Elway's 2 and won a better portion of his regular season games. That's why Peyton Manning is a superior Quarterback and the best #1 overall pick in NFL history.

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well said sir

by scottishcoltsfan on Apr 14, 2009 6:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I never knew they were that far apart statistically

It is certainly difficult to argue with any of those stats.

I’m anxiously awaiting Guru’s response…

NFC North and NFC South writer for SB Nation's NFL Draft blog: Mocking the Draft

by mgrex03 on Apr 14, 2009 6:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't know if I should link it over there or wait for someone else to

is coming over to the site with a story ragging on the best QB in their franchise history worse than letting someone else, possibly hostile to my arguments frame the story?

I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter

by shake n bake on Apr 14, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No response from me...

They are entirely two different QBs, playing in two completely different eras.

You have shown why I’m not a big fan of purely statistical analysis. Whether it is Elway-Manning or Manning-Elway matter little to me. As long as the person with the opinion watched both play, and comes up with their opinion on their own, not because of ESPN, or Pro-Football-Reference.

But it is a slippery slope. What is the baseline of a players’ greatness? Winning? Super Bowls? Lifting those around him to greater heights? Purely stats? Those are things everyone has to answer on their own……

-TSG

SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
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by John Bena on Apr 15, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Awesome, Shake!

I couldn’t belive that article (list) when I read it. You should email this to those jokers.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Apr 14, 2009 6:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Still disagree

Elway was never the pocket passer that Manning is. For pure drop back QB-ing, Manning is the better of the two. But for all around ability and the chance to bring a team back from certain defeat, I’ll take Elway over him every day. Elway could beat you in so many ways, but if you got a strong pass rush against Manning (which has always been difficult), he is very one-dimensional and beatable. You just can’t judge a QB by numbers alone, it’s their entire body of work and what they bring or brought to the table and for that, outside of Indy, most would still take Elway.

Being from Baltimore even makes this more credible, considering how that jerk Elway refused to play for us, forcing the Baltimore Colts to have to trade him for junk back then.

Rexx

by Rexx on Apr 14, 2009 6:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Nice response, but

delightfully fact-free.

I’ll start with “so many ways.” What exactly are those many ways? I’ll spot you two: his feet and his arm. Since his career rushing totals are very slightly better but his career passing totals are significantly infderior, I just don’t see him winning this one.

What are #7’s other ways of beating you…? His spleen? His thick, wavy hair? I know, it’s his preparation, work ethic, film study, and intellect. Um, maybe we shouldn’t go there. Leadership, come-from-behind wins? Sheesh, he doesn’t stand a chance. Wait, I have it: teeth! You got me there. But #18 has a MUCH bigger forehead, so big it’s a fivehead. Top that, Elway!

For the record, I always loved him (since he ruled in a generally low time for the Colts). But I don’t see Elway winning this one.

What DOES surprise me is that the author didn’t come up with some baloney math and say 200 is divisible by 1, and therefore Tom Brady counts for 200 #1 picks, making him God’s older cousin. Or some BS like that.

Rexx, I don’t know that being from Balto makes it more credible since so many Baltimoreans hate all things Indy…. You may or may not hate them; or may not even be able to recognize the bile (because it is so ubiquitous) that is spewed at Irsay and his company because of what happened between his father and the state of MD 25 years ago. I’ll leave the rest of that shitstorm for another day.

If you could give me something to work on, like career 3rd down QB rating, or super bowl wins without a 2,000 yard RB. Pick one factual, provable area in which Elway excelled (and I think the ace in the hole here was career win %), and we’ll see how it compares to #18. This is not to denigrate #7—Elway was an all-around great QB and a deserving HOFer. Manning is just better.

I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.

by Bobman on Apr 15, 2009 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow. Excellent response.

by coltsfanawalt on Apr 15, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1 million

awesome response.

A fivehead counts for more than the teeth, imo.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Apr 15, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

There was an argument on this on another site I frequent

And I made sure to stay out of it because it turned into a total shitstorm.

For the record, I agree with Shake.

Visit FanIQ.com for sports news, bloggings, polls, and more!

by MrNFL on Apr 14, 2009 6:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Obviously, you forgot...

Obviously, you forget the 21 point comeback against Tampa Bay, the 17 point comeback against Houston, the game against the Jets, the game against Minnesota, just to name a few. The only QB to make up a 17 point or greater deficit in the last 5 minutes is Manning, and he did it twice. Would that be considered part of the body of work you were talking about.

by Blueisgood on Apr 14, 2009 7:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Let's not forget...

overcoming THE LARGEST POINT DEFICET in Conference Championship history! =-D

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Apr 14, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh and...

He won league MVP getting hit and pressured on a regular basis coming off of two knee surgeries last summer. If pressure makes him one-dimensional and a one-dimensional Manning = league MVP… I’ll stick with Peyton.

by bamock on Apr 14, 2009 8:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The problem is..

by Blueisgood on Apr 14, 2009 9:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The problem is..

Peyton’s had so many remarkable comebacks and great games that we can’t remember all of them.

by Blueisgood on Apr 14, 2009 9:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Is this even an argument?

Peyton is the better #1 overall, without a doubt. Like shake said, people are just remembering Elway’s last two years. This isn’t even close when you look at the whole story, though.

by coltsfanawalt on Apr 14, 2009 9:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

What about the greatest free agent signing in history?

Could it have been, oh I don’t know, maybe John Unitas? OOps I just dated myself.

by tim55 on Apr 14, 2009 10:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Show me a man with a brush-cut and black high-tops and I'll show you a man you can trust

Johnny U was my intro to football.

I love the fact that he was a fairly late round pick—behind Ted Marchibroda (QB, St Bonaventure), IIRC. Was it Pittsburgh?

I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.

by Bobman on Apr 15, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

These guys may be the biggest bunch of idiots ever assembled in one IM room.

Here’s the link.

Be afraid…be very afraid…

Now a proud annoyance on Stampede Blue, 18to88, Indy Football Report, and Phil B's blog.

Man, I need a life...

Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: The fear of long words is called Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia. Think about that for a second.

by Cassieper on Apr 14, 2009 11:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Unitas

Pittsburgh cut him. Colts signed him off the sandlot. Hey Bob, are you an old guy too?

by tim55 on Apr 15, 2009 2:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Depends on whom you ask, Tim.

I’m 44. In football years that’s old because I started following the Colts around the time of SB III. And back in the 70s before the Internet and ESPN, if you wanted to follow/learn anything about the game, you had the newspapers and books (and Sports Illustrated). And out of season, it was ONLY books, which were all about the olden days.

I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.

by Bobman on Apr 15, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with everyone else that Peyton is obviously better. I just wish he had the opportunity to play in 5 Super Bowls like Elway did. There’s no doubt in my mind he would have 5 rings, not 2.

This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.

by KingRichard on Apr 15, 2009 6:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Plus...

Elway is an “asshat” in real life.

by MasterRWayne on Apr 15, 2009 10:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

interesting that

the Colts drafted both of these players… of course one was too much of an ahole to play here, and if he did we never would have gotten Peyton

by deefree93 on Apr 15, 2009 10:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That is interesting.

And you and MRW are right, Elway was a jerk. I’m glad he wasn’t a Colt after all.

by coltsfanawalt on Apr 15, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

5 superbowls for Elway

only one for Manning. think about it…

the internet? that thing is still around?
~Homer Simpson

by ktown on Apr 15, 2009 11:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

so it's making the superbowl that counts not winning it?

somebody pull Marino off that ledge before he jumps. He’s a great QB after all.

by shake n bake on Apr 15, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ok...then 2 wins compared to 1

the internet? that thing is still around?
~Homer Simpson

by ktown on Apr 15, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and how many did Elway have through the first 11 years of his career?

by shake n bake on Apr 15, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and these are team acomplishments not individual

Elway obviously doesn’t hold a candle to Peyton’s individual accomplishments, which is why you have to cite team achievements.

by shake n bake on Apr 15, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So

Troy Aikman would be better than both of them with that logic.

If Bo Jackson had stayed healthy, he’d probably be second to Peyton. Shame.

Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.

by monstersbox on Apr 15, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

JIm Kelly

4 consecutive SB appearances.

I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.

by Bobman on Apr 15, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Isnt this sport about team accomplishment

Peyton is a great QB but no love is going Elways way here. He had way less talent than Peyton ever had…except for the last couple years of his playing days. No other QB has ever taken his team to the superbowl 5 times. I know we are talking about individual accomplishments. Aikman had way better talent than both the Broncos and Colts.

the internet? that thing is still around?
~Homer Simpson

by ktown on Apr 15, 2009 12:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

the sport is, but it gives a much clearer picture when comparing two QBs to look at what the QB did in his offense

than what his entire team did.

by shake n bake on Apr 15, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

True...

but here again is what people need to decide on their own…

Who on the Colts offense during the “Marvin Harrison Era” should be Hall of Fame worthy? I’ve seen on this site arguments for Harrison, Edge, many of you might think Saturday is a HOF’er. Reggie Wayne is well on his way…

Now, who did Elway have?? The 3-frickin’ amigos??

Now, that is neither Elway’s fault, or Peyton’s. You play with the team you are dealt, but it becomes a vicious circle.

Are Wayne and Harrison products of Manning’s greatness? Or the other way around?

What would Elway have done with Rice/Taylor instead of Vance Johnson and Mark Jackson. Or someone other than Sammy Winder running the football.

We’ll never know, of course. They are both great. Period.

-TSG

SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport

Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605

by John Bena on Apr 15, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

3-frickin' amigos...classic.

dont forget about Clarence Kay

the internet? that thing is still around?
~Homer Simpson

by ktown on Apr 15, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A few of us here believe that

all “the guys” Peyton has is a product of his working with them. Now, granted they are good. But just imagine if Peyton wasn’t their QB..would any of us know their names? Peyton raises the level of play of those who surround him. And, personally, I think that’s a huge asset for a QB. Much like Unitas and Berry. They worked and worked and ran routes in the dark improving both Unitas’s play AND Berry’s play. Peyton is the same way as is Harrison, Wayne, Edge, etc…

Think about it for a moment.

"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007

by peytonsthebest on Apr 15, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The 3 Amigos

Starring :

Shannon Sharpe as Steve Martin

Rod Smith as Chevy Chase

Terell Davis as Martin Short

And Ed McCaffrey as the Singing Bush.

I’d say that’s pretty decent. Rod Smith falls into the extremely underrated and overlooked category who should have had more pro bowls than the 3 he did and who knows, he might make the HoF one day. He put together the majority of his career without an Elway caliber QB so who knows what would’ve happened if he spent his entire career with Elway or if they had started him his first two. Shannon Sharpe was arguably the most dominant TE of his generation and he’ll definitely make the HoF. And Terrell Davis put together the best 3 consecutive seasons for a RB not named Tomlinson and finished with the 3rd most rushing yards per game for his career. And McCaffrey was a very solid receiver who was clutch.

Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.

by monstersbox on Apr 15, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good stuff...

although the 3 amigos were Vance Johnson, Marc Jackson and Rickie Natiele. But i do like your humor.

the internet? that thing is still around?
~Homer Simpson

by ktown on Apr 15, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And the fine running back committee of...

Gerald Wilhite and Sammy Winder….Bobby Humphrey was solid as well..

-TSG

SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport

Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605

by John Bena on Apr 15, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I AM IN AWE!

Little Neddie Knickers….

I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.

by Bobman on Apr 15, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah, very nicely said

Though the flipside is that Elway’s D was pretty stacked most of his career (contributing to the career win % and the postseason/SBs) whereas Manning’s D was WELL below-average for about 4 years, about average for 4 years, and actually good for about three of his seasons.

And of course the flipside to the flipside is that when his D and ST would let up many points, Manning HAD TO take to the air to score TDs in bunches pretty much up through 2004. ~~-so his humongous stats edge was not just because he is an Olympian among mortals, but because of his situation~~-he needed all those points. (as opposed to, say, #12 in Foxboro, who enjoys passing for his 5th TD when already up by three TDs in the 4th quarter, but I digress) When Indy’s D jelled a bit better, Manning could run a more balanced O, which protected his D in terms of TOP, and reduced his stats a bit.

Back to Elway, he had somewhat of an unfair advantage (again this affects win % and any postseason games played in Denver) due to altitude. I won’t cry about it but over the long haul, say 15 years, the other NFL teams who all train around sea level will generally be somewhat gassed playing in Denver, and getting one-half to one extra win a season due to that might be accurate. One gasping LB missing a tackle in the 4th quarter could be all it takes in a close game. Again, no way to prove that. I suppose the elite marathoner syndrome might work for away games too—most elite marathoners live and train at altitude, then when they run marathons at sea level, their bodies (in theory) utilize the O2 in the air more efficiently than us flatlanders.

One more flipside: Manning played at least half his games in a dome—while the indoor conditions benefit both teams evenly in terms of career win %, the lack of wind HAS TO help with career passing stats. Kurt Warner can attest to that. Without referring to empirical evidence for home/away stats for 18, I will assume it is so.

I’ve just gone in so many circles I am dizzy. I guess for me it comes down to the hypothetical game of putting one guy on the other’s team. Does a Manning-led Broncos team win 2 or more of those 5 SBs? Do they make all 5? Does an Elway-led Colts team make and win more than one? (keeping in mind the Colts decade of dominance had the unfortunate timing to happen concurrently with the Pats’ half-decade of dominance.) I like Manning’s chances there better than Elway’s… but I am biased. About the same as with the Manning/Brady switcheroo arguments. Closer, actually, with Elway.

I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.

by Bobman on Apr 15, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'll reserve my judgement

until Peyton’s HOF career is over. i’m not saying that I agree or disagree with Shake’s analysis (the numbers speak volumes), but let’s not downplay taking a team to five Super Bowls. that’s pretty amazing. don’t get me wrong, i still think Peyton will have a chance to get to at least 1-2 more before it’s all said and done, but we might not ever see another quarterback take a team to five.

for the sake of argument, Elway did go to three Super Bowls in an era when the AFC was not the dominant conference like it was from 2003-2008 (see the ass-kickings by the Giants, Redskins, and 49ers). but, considering the talent he had around him (um, Vance Johnson?), i don’t think that accomplishment should be brushed off.

Peyton may end up being the quarterback, but to say that it’s “not even close” or that Peyton is “clearly the best” like some have said here is wildly inaccurate. “not close” is comparing Eli Manning to Peyton or Jake Delhomme to Joe Montana. “not close” doesn’t apply when comparing players that are almost unanimously regarded among the top five of all-time at their position like Peyton and Elway.

by SBakerTheTouchdownMaker on Apr 15, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

nicely said

the internet? that thing is still around?
~Homer Simpson

by ktown on Apr 15, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Where

Where would you put Jim Kelly? Just curious.

Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.

by monstersbox on Apr 15, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

is Jim Kelly among the top ten quarterbacks of all-time?

are you saying that because Kelly went to four Super Bowls i would rate him ahead of Peyton or Marino or Favre? i wouldn’t.

everyone has their own system for judging QBs (stats, Super Bowl rings, etc.), and i think they’re all legitimate and don’t have a problem any of them. personally, i judge quarterbacks based on who i would choose if i had to win one game. based on that criteria, i don’t think they were many better than Elway in NFL history.

by SBakerTheTouchdownMaker on Apr 15, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Understood

Your rankings of QB’s is based on completely subjective analysis and emotion. Got it.

Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.

by monstersbox on Apr 15, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and looking at a piece of paper with a bunch of numbers on it is better?

does The Drive in 1986 show up on paper?
how do you tabulate a helicopter dive in Super Bowl XXXII?

i’m not saying judging on numbers is wrong but they aren’t the end-all, be-all. try find me a non-Colts fan that lives outside of a 100-mile radius of Indianapolis that thinks Peyton is “way better” than John Elway. they don’t exist. he may be better, but if you think Peyton is “way better” than Elway, you’re not only a homer, you’re flat-out wrong.

it’s like saying Montana was “way better” than Unitas or Favre was “way better” than Marino. they’re ALL elite.

by SBakerTheTouchdownMaker on Apr 15, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I said nothing of the sort

The only two comments I posted here had to do with Denver fans saying it was all Elway and he had no supporting cast, when in fact, he had a great supporting cast. Then I asked where you would rank Kelly. You tried to put everything else in my mouth. I didn’t say your way of ranking them was incorrect or wrong, I simply pointed out that you’re arguing something that is based on your subjective opinion and emotion. Meaning that it’s a pretty pointless argument. You’re not going to convince me that Elway is better or nearly as important to his team than Peyton is and vice versa. That was a playoff team with or without him in 97 and 98. The Colts are a 6-10 team, maybe, without Peyton. You used going to 5 Super Bowls as the platform for your initial argument, not winning them, and when asked how you would rank Kelly, you changed your mind about how important going to Super Bowls is. Because the only way to logically say that, and not be full of it, is to recognize that Kelly went to 4 consecutive SBs. Either stick by your argument or don’t use a flimsy argument to try to prove a point.

Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.

by monstersbox on Apr 15, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I tried to, and I thought I had

limited the “not even close” and “clearly the best’s” to Peyton’s passing stats and the number of individual honors won.

I think I only used better/superior when talking about them on the whole.

by shake n bake on Apr 15, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Manning

If you really want to compare Mannings stats to greatness compare them to Tom Brady especially playoff and superbowl records. As far as Peytons superbowl year lets not forget Brady came into indy without hie best receiver Cliff Branch as a matter of fact Brady had all no name receivers and still put up 35 points. Be it not for those no name receivers dropping wide open touchdowns Peyton would still be superbowl winless. I won’t mention the 6 first round losses out of nine games. So when you speak of his greatness make sure you say regular season only.

by Icemike on Apr 15, 2009 3:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

that's a whole different argument

If you really want to compare Mannings stats to greatness compare them to Tom Brady

that’s a whole different argument all about team success vs individual success.

especially playoff and superbowl records.

Superbowl records? You mean undefeated vs 3-1?

s far as Peytons superbowl year lets not forget Brady came into indy without hie best receiver Cliff Branch

and I think you are off on Cliff Branch. Cliff Branch had been retired for a decade before Peyton or Brady came into the league.

as a matter of fact Brady had all no name receivers and still put up 35 points. Be it not for those no name receivers dropping wide open touchdowns Peyton would still be superbowl winless.

If only if only. You can’t argue from history and then change the parts of it you don’t like, and you especially can’t praise Brady for having no-name-WRs then say they shouldn’t have dropped balls. That’s what no-name WRs do. Either bitch about them or be happy with what the Pats were able to do with them limiting the O.