The Great Addai Debate
by shake n bake on Apr 2, 2009 9:55 AM EDT
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PrintThe battle has raged across any slightly running game related post since early last season. Why can't Indy run? Who is to blame? I want to know what all the readers out there think. A detailed account of both sides of the argument can be found in the latest derailed thread
EDIT: To clarify, the question is who is more to blame. I've yet to hear a single person who believes it is 100% one or the other.
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a both choice would kill both extremes
do you have an answer for “Who is more responsible for Indy not being able to run?”
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
by shake n bake on Apr 2, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Its just that both had their own problems, but i gotta say that the line was probably the more responsible because they didnt play well protecting Manning either
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha OK" - Tom Brady
by BlueMark1821 on Apr 2, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I think
That Addai has the talent and the work ethic, but he is somewhat fragile and running behind a bad/injured O line, has gotten tentative at times. Hence the, “Joe Addai Shuffle” during inside runs.
I also wish I had time and motivation to blog at Speed Blue Nation
talent?
I thought the exact same thing last year and i still think that with a good OL he would be pretty good but with a good line almost every RB will have a good performance. Last year the OL was awful and was a good chance to see what Addai was made of and it results that he is just a good RB, like many more in this league. Great RBs, with or without a line will make a difference and Addai clearly didnt last year.
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha OK" - Tom Brady
by BlueMark1821 on Apr 2, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Give me one example
Of a running back that is not in the Hall of Fame(i.e. Sanders) that thrived and produced consistently behind a bad Run-blocking line. In the league right now I would like to possibly cite Slaton and Forte, but I believe that Houston had success with Slaton(who is no doubt extremely talented) in part due to their running scheme(zone blocking). Forte running behind Chicago’s O-line last year was truly special in my mind, and he truly differentiated himself from the other backs on the team(though there is certainly a dearth of talent in that RB corps to be fair). Watching the tape is the only thing that can really tell the tale.
I honestly believe that if Joe is back fully healthy and we have a healthy and adjusted O-line, that we will see Joe reach his productivity from years past. He may never put up Edge-like numbers, but that is an awfully high bar to hold him up against.
I also wish I had time and motivation to blog at Speed Blue Nation
Sanders counts…Forte is a good example, you said it yourself. Cant remember another one right now though…lol
Productivity from years past? You mean 06? He will NEVER put up Edge-like numbers. Hes is just an average back and thats it.
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha OK" - Tom Brady
by BlueMark1821 on Apr 2, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
He might be average as a pure rusher
But as a Colts RB, he is much above average when healthy.
I also wish I had time and motivation to blog at Speed Blue Nation
when healthy….and with a healthy O-line right?
Maybe not an average back if you want, just a good one, not great nor awesome, just good
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha OK" - Tom Brady
by BlueMark1821 on Apr 2, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
You're missing the point
Addai may not be a back who can break off 65-yard TD runs boom-or-bust style, but he is consistent(and last year yes, that means consistently mediocre) and he has above average skills in every other area which the Colts classify as important to their backs(ball security, pass blocking, receiving, selling the play fake, having a low-key demeanor). This COMBINATION of traits make him, in my mind, an above average Colts RB that has the potential to be a very good RB in general.
I also wish I had time and motivation to blog at Speed Blue Nation
The problem being of course, is that he doesn’t produce, or at least he hasn’t produced, in the most important role he plays in the offense.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
I do get the point, but i just dont see him being a very good RB.
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha OK" - Tom Brady
by BlueMark1821 on Apr 2, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn't kill the argument
There is no argument. Richard won’t agree with you and MasterWayne won’t. Period. I won’t even say if I agree with them or not. It’s pretty pointless.
I did put up something about Nicks though.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
Addai
I have had this debate numerous times with MasterRWayne. In my opinion, when both Addai and the o-line were healthy (2006 season, half of 2007), his rushing numbers were outstanding. I don’t think it is a coincidence that when both Addai and the o-line started getting hurt that the running game suffered. Addai and the o-line were injured second half of 2007 and all of 2008. In 08, Lilja didn’t play at all, Saturday missed several games, and Ugoh also missed time.
This is apparently a very hot topic here, and I don’t know why. I’ll just re-iterate that RB is the most fragile position in football because of all the hits a RB takes. The days of the 25 carry back are over. Emmitt Smith wouldn’t last 3 seasons in the modern NFL. In order to succeed at running the ball, you need a healthy, consistent o-line and at least three capable running backs. The Giants are the best example of this.
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The last time I saw the Hick’s post it was like 10 comments and this morning I see it past 100. I was wondering what had happened but this would have been my guess.
I’m also surprised at (so far) how much the votes are backing Addai. I guess his bashers are just louder than his backers
"If you don't [draft me], I promise you I'll come back and kick your ass for the next 15 years."
For the record, I voted Addai isn’t good enough and I’ll explain why.
By choosing the Addai option, I’m not saying Addai’s overall skills and intagibles are lacking, just his durability and running style. There’s no question that his blocking and receiving skills are top notch; but that’s not what the Colts drafted him for. They drafted him to be the guy, and to do everything that Edge did.
Here’s a very simple way at looking at how the running game can works:
A great running back can make a mediocre o-line look good.
A great o-line can make a great running back look good.
A great running back and a great o-line can dominate.
When you combine a mediocre running back with a mediocre o-line, you get the 2008 Indianapolis Colts.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
Woops, that should read:
A great running back can make a mediocre o-line look good.
A great o-line can make a mediocre running back look good.
A great running back and a great o-line can dominate.
When you combine a mediocre running back with a mediocre o-line, you get the 2008 Indianapolis Colts.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
I agree
When you combine a mediocre running back with a mediocre o-line, you get the 2008 Indianapolis Colts.
While i dont consider Addai a mediocre RB, i do think he is just an average back, like many more in this league
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha OK" - Tom Brady
by BlueMark1821 on Apr 2, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Both - but more on the O-line then Addai
Last year, it didn’t seem like any one of the backs could gain much yardage behind the banged up/ rookie O-line. If it was just Addai that sucked then you could put all or most of the blame on him, but, all the backs sucked. That kind of points towards other factors, and that would be the O-line.
the O-line was a total wreck, anytime you have to insert rookie backups as starters on the O-line, it’s going to be hard to have much success. Give these guys another year to get healthy and the running game should improve.
Addai is a solid back and worth keeping around. Get the O-line healthy and add a mid round draft pick to give him some help and the running game should be much improved.
Defense if more important then breathing.
Last year, it didn’t seem like any one of the backs could gain much yardage behind the banged up/ rookie O-line. If it was just Addai that sucked then you could put all or most of the blame on him, but, all the backs sucked. That kind of points towards other factors, and that would be the O-line.
That’s just not true man. Look back at the 2006 season, and compare that to the 2008.
Dom’s stats during 2006: 187 attempts, 641 yards, 3.4 average.
Addai’s was: 226 attempts, 1081 yards, 4.8 average.
Now, both of these guys ran behind the same o-line, which according to everyone here was “perfectly fine.” Addai clearly out performed Dom in all categories. Now let’s compare their stats from 2008:
Dom’s stats during 2008: 152 attempts, 538 yards, 3.5 average.
Addai’s was: 155 attempts, 544 yards, 3.5 avreage.
Obviously, both of these guys ran behind the same banged up, crappy o-line, but yet Dom’s stats were basically a mirror image of his 2006 stats. In fact, they were almost better. But now look at Addai’s. Granted he had a lot less attempts, but his total yards and average were HORRIBLE! He clearly showed a huge drop-off, but yet Dom could produce the same?
IT’S NOT SOLELY ON THE O-LINE PEOPLE, ADDAI JUST CAN’T PRODUCE IN THE RUNNING GAME.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
Good point
My biggest issue with the “Addai Apologist” is they just blindly refuse to accept Jospeh Addai’s responsiblity. Even Polian called him out for his crappy play. I guess that must mean Polian’s an idiot.
by MasterRWayne on Apr 2, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I really, really don't think you have to keep arguing
I think pretty much everyone knows how you feel, how shake feels, how a ton of people feel about the situation. Now we’re just going in circles and it’s pretty boring. I’d like to see the poll, but I think at this point, people have made their decisions on how they see the situation.
By the way, since this thread will probably be popping :
"Colts | A. Johnson runs well during workout
Share:
Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:47:32 -0700
Bo Marchionte, of NFLDraftBible.com, reports University of Akron RB Andrew Johnson ran the 40-yard dash in 4.32 seconds while working out for the Indianapolis Colts March 31. Johnson measured in at 5-foot-10 and 215 pounds"
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
With a good OL, almost every back can produce and considering that this is based on “Why cant Indy run?”, i go with the line but i cant say that Addai is a victim here, he sucked last year horribly.
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha OK" - Tom Brady
by BlueMark1821 on Apr 2, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I did not know that
Good point Richard – it does appear the Joe has taken a step back. What do you think the cause is, diminished skills, injuries, not enough preparation?
I never thought Joe was a great back like Edge or even Faulk, but, I thought he was good enough and was able to compliment the passing game. It does seem like Addai needs to refocus his preparation and film study. I imagine with the Polian comment echoing in his ears for an entire off season, he may be motivated to prove he still has the stuff.
I still think a healthy o-line will make a big difference.
Defense if more important then breathing.
I'd like to know
Why 100 yard games is the only stat that can be used in this argument? Why is that the end-all be-all?
When you watch the tape, what do the detractors consider a “successful” running play? Once the debate is framed, a much better argument can be made.
By the way, according to FO’s RB Success Rate last season, the Colts overall finished 7th in the NFL.
NFC North and NFC South writer for SB Nation's NFL Draft blog: Mocking the Draft
100 yard games
Are not the only metric BUT a lack of them for a long period of time shows lack of production. Mgrex if you think the Colts had a top 10 running game last year you are delusional. It was so bad the last eight games we didn’t even try to run. We would pass, pass and pass.
I also think this poll is Stupid. There isn’t even an option for “Both.” Lame.
Please answer my question
What do you consider a “successful” running play? I’m not talking per game. If the Colts run the ball on 1st and 10, what is a “successful” running play? On 2nd and 7, what is a success? I think 3rd down is pretty obvious (Colts were 4th best on 3rd downs, by the way)
This is the stuff that you see “on tape”, not a macro view of the whole game, which is exactly what you are arguing. I want to make sure there isn’t a big gap between perception and reality.
NFC North and NFC South writer for SB Nation's NFL Draft blog: Mocking the Draft
Do we have to settle this Thunder Dome style
SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account and post a diary, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.
I have some more for you too
It was so bad the last eight games we didn’t even try to run. We would pass, pass and pass.
First 8 games: 294 Pass – 171 Run
Last 8 games: 291 Pass – 199 Run
NFC North and NFC South writer for SB Nation's NFL Draft blog: Mocking the Draft
I'm Switzerland.
Neutral. Because I believe it is a combination of both…pretty equally.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
Take the Poll Down...
Simply because it offers No option for “both.” Its a form of push polling if you ask me.
Shake said that...
“a both choice would kill both extremes”
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha OK" - Tom Brady
by BlueMark1821 on Apr 2, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
*laughs*
Yeah he would say that. Its also highly dumb. I haven’t even voted because of the lack of a both choice. Nice job push polling there Shake.
Let's ease up a bit
One simple fact makes much of this “Addai debate” moot: If Addai does not produce in 2009, he’s gone. It’s that simple. If he gets hurt in 2009, that would be three straight injury-riddled years. He won’t get a contract extension if he’s hurt for three straight years.
SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account and post a diary, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.
That's a good point.
This will be the make or break year for Addai. I think the chances for a breakout year are just about as good as a bust year. I think his number one problem is his durability. He might not have top-flight speed, but he still shows good quickness, elusiveness, the ability to speed through the hole, and the willingness to lean forward and fight for the extra yard. He also is excellent most of the time at pass blocking, and can truly be a threat in the receiving game – which are both huge pluses in our offense and not something that any lower-round pick will be able to boast.
But, point blank, another sub 4.0 YPC season or another time-loss injury and he is more than likely gone.
I also wish I had time and motivation to blog at Speed Blue Nation
thats why it is important to pick a RB this season cuz, honestly, i dont think Addai will have a great year…i hope he does, but as you all say, his durability is a huge concern
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha OK" - Tom Brady
by BlueMark1821 on Apr 2, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Sure
I won’t debate that constantly adding quality depth to the RB position is a bad idea. RBs are fragile, and finding a back that fits our RB profile is difficult. That being said, I don’t see a likely scenario where we just NEED to have a high-pick rookie to step in to make up for some sort of massive Addai suckage. I think we need a mid to late rounder that we have scouted well and worked out and feel very confident in his injury history. Make sure he is durable, has good character, and has a well-rounded skill set.
I also wish I had time and motivation to blog at Speed Blue Nation
how exactly was the question biased?
a “both” option would be the run away winner, because it is a combination no matter which side you are on and would give no information because most peoples votes wouldn’t go to either side.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
by shake n bake on Apr 2, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the question should just ask who is MORE responsible for Indy's inability to run.
http://www.irun.com/users/6967/downloads/Jays%20Win%20Back-to-Back%20World%20Series.mp3
by torontocoltsfan on Apr 2, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
k
added clarification.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
Both
I voted Addai isn’t good enough, because I think the Colts should draft a RB, but I think they are both problems that need to be addressed in the draft.
and..
I don’t necessarily think Addai isn’t good, I think he is very talented. But it is obvious to me that he has injury concerns, and needs a young tandem back to go with him. He needs a plowshare that didn’t tear his ACL last year, and isn’t 30+ years old..no matter how much I like Hart and Rhodes.
Just a random thought not on either side of the argument
2 of Addai’s attributes may be self-defeating in a way. There seems to be a pretty general consensus that Addai is a very good pass-blocker and also very injury prone. What are the chances that he is more injury prone because he’s a good blocker? If he was a worse blocker, would we be getting more use out of him in terms of just running/catching the ball? Just a thought
"If you don't [draft me], I promise you I'll come back and kick your ass for the next 15 years."
I've said that before
Neck and shoulder injuries are indicative of blocking injuries, not rushing. And those are generally the injuries he’s had on a constant basis aside from the hamstring and regular wear and tear. If the O-line picked up blitzing LBs better, he wouldn’t be forced to stay back and protect Peyton. You can clearly tell he was blocking by watching film and also looking at the number of carries he was getting even while healthy. O-line sucked, they hold Addai back to block, he gets neck and shoulder injuries, and now everyone jumps on him. I’d rather have Addai in there rushing for 3.5 ypc and having people claim he “sucks” and is “injury prone” than not being in the game and watching Peyton get killed.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
Excellent points. I'm nearly convinced...
Protect Peyton AT ALL COSTS!
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Apr 2, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember you mentioning that
That was what sparked my thought. Regardless of all this arguing, I think we can all agree that if the O-Line plays well again we’ll have a killer offense. Man do I hope they gel next year and stay healthy
"If you don't [draft me], I promise you I'll come back and kick your ass for the next 15 years."
Rashad Jennings
How can we pass up on Jennings. Have you not see his video?
No one is saying Addai doesn't need a tandem partner
I’m all for Jennings in the second or Andre Brown in the 3rd, but as partners to Addai and replacements for Dom.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
ditto everything shake said.
it will be a moot point regardless though if non-saturday line play doesn’t improve…
Please refer to my previous statements.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
lol damn you :(
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
Hey KR...
Its OK man…I have the same thing going with Clay Matthews…you are just more vocal than I am.
I’m just kidding you!!
Matthews is 'roiding
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
by shake n bake on Apr 3, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Another Option
Maybe it isn’t that the o-line wasn’t healthy or that Addai sucks, but that the Colts drafted lineman that are excellent pass protectors but terrible run blockers. How often were we hoping we’d pass on third and short because we knew the defense would be in our backfield before Addai got the ball? Hopefully it was just because we played a lot of rookies and they’ll be better in year two. Time will tell.
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