Percy Harvin v. Hakeem Nicks - YOU DECIDE 2009
While some Colts fans disagree about whether the Colts should draft a WR in the 1st Round, one thing is clear; drafting a WR is certainly not out of the question. It is not uncommon for Polian to go offense in the 1st Round and it would seem that either WR or RB would be the greatest offensive skill position needs on the team this year. Accordingly, this thread will take a look at the two most respected 1st Round WR prospects amongst most Colts fans. A lot has changed since February that has caused Percy Harvin and Hakeem Nicks to see their stock rise and fall. The question posed to you is, if Polian does select a WR with pick 27 and these two WRs are available, who would you choose?
Percy Harvin - Florida
Photo
Photo - Harvin is Ripped!
2008 Season Highlights
Go Hard - Percy Harvin Tribute
5'11", 192 lbs.
4.39 40 Yard Dash, 3.93 20 Yard Shuttle, 6.68 3-Cone
20 Bench Reps, 37.5 Inch Vertical
SENIOR SEASON STATS
40 Receptions, 644 Receiving Yards, 7 TDs - 16.1 Yard Avg.
70 Rushes, 659 Rushing Yards, 10 TDs - 9.4 Yard Avg.
INJURIES
2006 - Left-Ankle injury limited Harvin or kept him out of games for two months. One week after returning he was injured again, suffering a neck stinger.
2007 - Limited in practice on 8/14 because of Achilles' tendonitis. Missed a week of practice after he suffered a hip pointer on 9/22. Harvin missed a game on 11/10 and missed close to the next two weeks of practice because of sinus infection and migraine headaches.
2008 - Heel problems forced Harvin to miss spring drills on March 24. On April 7, Harvin had heel surgery. Was unable to return to full-speed practices until Sept. 6. Harvin sprained his right ankle, which he re-injured in a game against Florida State. Forced to miss practices leading up to the SEC Championship game, and the game itself, against Alabama on Dec. 6. After working hard to rehabilitate, Harvin did participate in the BCS game v. Oklahoma.
ANALYSIS
NFLDraftScout, MockingtheDraft.com
Strengths:
Shorter than scouts would like, but has a strong, compact build. Rare straight-line speed. Rare elusiveness. Can make defenders miss in tight quarters. Good vision when running in space. Sets up his blocks well and can cut back against the grain. Good agility as a route-runner. Strong, secure hands for the reception. Courageous going over the middle. Gathers in the pass and quickly moves upfield to maximize production. Can extend outside of his frame to make the spectacular reception. Versatile athlete who can contribute as a receiver, running back and shows great potential as a returner, although he never attempted a kick or punt return at Florida. Has struggled with durability, but is considered a physically tough player.
Harvin possesses possibly the best first step off the line not only in this draft class, but of the last several years. He's explosive off the snap, which allows him to immediately get open on slant routes. Harvin bursts into and out of his cuts with a strong plant foot. Coaches said he is a strong competitor with great work ethic. Has incredible elusiveness and can score on any possession. Intelligently cuts back to gain extra yards going against the flow of traffic. Will go over the middle on occasion. Has the agility to make extraordinary catches look easy. An intelligent player who has lined up at multiple receiver spots, running back and even quarterback.
If there is anything that is clear about Percy Harvin it is that he is a dynamic player. He can run, catch, and throw the ball better than most football players and has the ability to break big plays as a receiver and out of the backfield. He is quick, fast in a line, has great moves and instincts, and the kind of elusiveness that doesn't come along that often. That he plays with intelligence and can get in and out of his breaks as quickly as he can gives him a lot of potential as a route runner in the NFL as well.
Weaknesses:
Looks shorter on film than his listed 5'11. Many of his plays in this offense were slip screens designed to get him the ball quickly and in space. Could struggle acclimating to a more pro-style offense. Lack of success at the NFL level for former receivers from Meyer's offense is troubling. Has struggled with durability. Missed practice time in 2008 with ankle, hip pointer and tendonitis in his knee and heel.
Where does he play? Much like Reggie Bush of the New Orleans Saints, Harvin might be good at a lot of different things, but a master of none. He might not be able to be relied on as a true no. 1 receiver and is far too slender to regularly carry the ball as a running back. Has a long history of injury problems. While he may have missed five games in three years, he was banged up and unproductive in several contests. In 2007, Harvin sat out two games with the flu, so his toughness is somewhat questionable. For such an explosive and fast player, it's somewhat of a surprise that Harvin never returned a punt or kick at Florida. While it's probably due to the Gators having so much talent and speed, it makes you question Harvin's ability to do this and even his vision somewhat.
Harvin is kind of small for the receiver position, at least in the NFL. While he is the same height as Anthony Gonzalez, he plays smaller than Gonzalez. As such, if Harvin were to come to the Colts he'd likely be put into the slot. As some Colts fans may remember, though, one of the biggest issues we had with the "slot machine," Brandon Stokely, is that he seemed to get injured regularly. Harvin is coming into the NFL with a notorious history of injuries. Ankle turns, heel problems, illnesses, tendonitis, etc. That said, I don't agree with the analysis from Mocking the Draft suggesting that because Harvin didn't return punts or kicks at all "it makes you question Harvin's ability to do this and his vision somewhat." Umm... no, it doesn't. That is silly logic. He was a 1st team player who was injured often and a major part of the running and receiving game. Having him return kicks would have been silly. Also, the argument that missing time due to having the flu puts Harvin's toughness in question is likewise foolish. Anyone who has tried to play sports at a high level while suffering from illnesses causing fever, congestion and respiratory problems knows that it is pretty much impossible.
PROFESSIONAL SCOUTING REPORT - Dave-Te' Thomas - CBSSports.com
Dave-Te Thomas Biographical Information
Athletic Ability: Harvin has that explosive playing burst to easily gain separation after the catch. He is shorter than ideal for a split end, but has good strength for a player his size and uses his hands well to defeat the press. His suddenness coming out of his stance will see him consistently gobble up the cushion and his acceleration and burst is most effective when utilized on the team's screens, as he shows that straight-line charge to instantly break free and the hip swerve to elude. He shows nice feet getting in and out of his cuts. He does an excellent job of extending for the ball and keeping his feet inbounds when working along the sidelines. He has the burst to quickly eat up the cushion and run by defensive backs consistently. He also has the hip wiggle and head fakes to elude defenders after the catch.
Football Sense: Harvin is a good student of the game, as he plays with solid awareness and instincts. He has that uncanny feel to adjust on the move and set up the defensive backs when trying to get open. He shows very good vision and hip snap to elude after the catch. He learns and retains plays with minimal reps. He has big-play quickness after the catch, as he consistently finds the open areas and works back to the ball, making nice adjustments to the poorly thrown pass. He has no problems taking the plays from the chalkboard to the field.
Character: Harvin has made a conscious effort to stay out of the spotlight at Florida. He showed great maturity and solid work ethic, battling back from several injuries with only one desire - to return to the football field.
Competitiveness: Harvin always gives total effort on the field. He might lack the bulk and strength to punish defenders, but will not hesitate to sacrifice his body in order to make the tough catch going over the middle. He has that fearless nature like Hines Ward, in that he willingly gives up his body to get to the ball. He loves to play the game, will not hesitate to compete for the ball in a crowd and gives a consistently high effort. In crunch situations, he thrives by being the type who wants the ball when the game is on the line.
Work Habits: Harvin proved his worth ethic with his strong desire to get back on the field late last season... staying at school over Christmas Break in order to rehab an ankle sprain that threatened to keep him out of the BCS Championship.
ATHLETIC REPORT: GRADE: 7.44
Route Running: Harvin is an effective route runner who shows very loose lower body motion. He has the balance, body control and quickness, along with the strong and quick feet in his routes to separate out of his cuts. He needs to be a bit more focused attacking the deep third of the secondary (will sometimes drift on long patterns), but has developed crisp cut moves and refined his route running. His body control and quickness out of his breaks allows him to set up the defender, as he does a nice job of dropping his weight, sinking his hips and maintaining body control in and out of his cuts when separating.
Ball Concentration: Harvin shows better vision and focus working underneath than he does on deep routes. He will make the tough grab in traffic and knows how to keep is feet along the sidelines, but needs to stay in his pattern better (drifts) when going for the deep ball. Will make adjustments so he doesn't repeat mistakes.
Ball Adjustment: Harvin has the frame and good extension to get to the ball outside his frame. He uses his timing and leaping ability to battle for the throw at its highest point and shows the natural hands and ball skills to make smooth adjustments on the move. He has the hip snap to make the adjustments when the throws are behind him. Few receivers can get the rise in their leap or contort their body and make adjustments in the air to get the high ball like Harvin can.
Hands: As good as Harvin's speed is, his hands are his best asset. He does not have large baskets for mitts, but is perfectly capable of looking the ball in and securing it before heading upfield. He looks very natural plucking the ball out of the air and even though he drifts on long patterns, he will make proper body adjustments to settle under those throws. Harvin almost never uses his body to make the play.
Blocking Ability: Harvin is not going to frighten anyone, but he is a pester-type that will occupy a defensive back at the line of scrimmage. He is a decent crack blocker who does a good job of firing low to take out the defender's legs. He is an effective open-field cutter because of his ability to attack the defender low and use his hands to mirror and sustain.
Compares to: Eric Metcalf, ex-San Diego/Cleveland -- It is hard to find a present day comparison to Harvin among NFL players. Some compare him to the Saints' Reggie Bush, but he is not really much of a returner and is a better big play threat than the New Orleans multi-purpose back. Harvin has the vision and moxie that Metcalf showed, as both are fearless going for the ball. He might not be the greatest route runner, especially getting to the deep ball, but on bubble and slip screens he is a fan favorite, as he can turn those short throws into big gains better than any other player in this draft.
OVERALL GRADE: 7.44
Dave-Te Thomas makes it clear that Harvin is an exceptional inside receiver, probably the kind of receiver who would really excel in the slot for the Colts. He's fearless, has the athletic ability to weave through defenders in traffic and the burst in his breaks to leave defenders behind him to make catches on the run, even in traffic, and the vision to find seams that allow him to make big plays. A big play threat slot receiver is what teams will likely get with Harvin. The biggest question mark of all about Harvin is if he can stay healthy long enough to reach his potential in the NFL and produce regularly on an NFL team, during its long (and potentially extending) season.
Another Scouting Report - FFToolbox.com
And Another Scouting Report - WalterFootball.com
Hakeem Nicks - North Carolina
Photo
2008 Season Highlights
2009 Skills Competition
6'1", 212 lbs.
4.51 40 Yard Dash, 4.43 20 Yard Shuttle, 6.96 3-Cone Drill
21 Bench Reps, 36 Inch Vertical Jump
SENIOR SEASON STATS
68 Receptions, 1,222 Receiving Yards, 12 TDs (18 Yd/Avg.)
5 Rushes, 34 Rushing Yards, 1 TD (6.8 Yd/Avg.)
7 KR, 134 Yards
INJURIES
2006 - Sat out a game v. South Florida on 10/18 with a high-ankle sprain.
2007 - Missed part of the second half v. South Carolina on 10/13 with a high-ankle sprain.
ANALYSIS
NFLDraftScout, TFYDraft.com
Strengths:
Passes the eyeball test. good initial quickness off the snap. Good strength and lateral agility to fight through press coverage. Sneaky downfield speed. Good burst out of his breaks to generate separation, especially on slants. Rare body control for a player of his size. Can contort his body in space to make the spectacular reception. Sticky hands. Can snatch out of the air or absorb with his body when he feels an impending big hit. Knows where the sidelines, down markers and, most important, end zone are. Good height and leaping ability for the fade. Rare strength, balance and agility to turn short and intermediate catches into long gains. Good vision to cut back against the grain. Improved with each year of experience. Might just be scratching the surface of his potential.
Large, physically gifted pass catcher who plays much faster than his forty time. Very athletic, easily adjusts to the errant pass, and makes a lot of difficult receptions. Gets vertical in a crowd, exposes himself to the big hit, but comes down with the ball. Displays quickness into breaks, comes back to the pass and gets separation from defenders. Extends and offers the quarterback a nice target. Quickly transitions from making the catch to running after the reception. Effectively uses his frame to shield away defenders and protect the pass. Consistently makes the reception with his hands and keeps the play in bounds.
Nicks sounds like some kind of Wayne/Harrison hybrid to me. He's does not have blazing speed but plays faster than his time speed suggests (Wayne). He has the body control and hands to make amazing catches and knows where the sidelines, first down markers and end zone are when he catches the football (Harrison/Wayne). He also has the vision to know when to break from his route and come back to the ball, presenting his QB with a target when he needs a release quickly (Harrison).
Weaknesses:
Questionable deep speed. May lack the top-end speed to challenge defensive backs over the top, allowing savvy NFL defenders to close off the crossing routes on which Nicks generated much of his success. One of three legitimate NFL-caliber receivers for the Tar Heels, and capitalized on defenses spread thin.
Not overly quick releasing off the line into routes. Not a true speedster and will have difficulty getting downfield separation at the next level. Does not display consistently soft hands.
Nicks will not beat defensive backs in an all out race on a fly route. However, that sounds similar to Harrison, who beat people not so much by being clearly faster in a straight-line but by running such precise routes that defenders would bite on fakes and Harrison would leave them trying to catch up. His lack of quickness off the line makes him more of a possession receiver than a big-play guy. That's not to say that he can't make big plays, great catches, etc... just that his MO isn't the highlight reel 70 yard runs after the catch.
PROFESSIONAL SCOUTTING REPORT - Dave-Te' Thomas - CBSSports.com
Dave-Te Thomas Biographical Information
Athletic Ability: Nicks lacks blazing speed, but it is rare to see him struggle vs. the jam as he has more than enough power and good hand usage to get a clean crisp release off the snap. He shows excellent balance and crisp cutting ability, demonstrating the agility and flexibility to make adjustments in his route without having to throttle down. He has very good body control, doing a nice job of settling in the soft areas and displays the vision and burst to come back when the pocket is pressured.
Football Sense: Nicks only needs normal reps to learn and retain plays. He shows good awareness and instincts and understands the game and coverages. He adjusts well on the move and has no problems dealing with classroom work. When he gets open, he knows what his job is - to move the chains.
Character: Nicks is high respected, considered a good guy and is highly recommended by his coaches. There are no off-field issues or skeletons hidden in his closet. He has a quiet, yet friendly personality and is a self-start with confidence in his ability to get the job done.
Competitiveness: Nicks is a good competitor with a strong desire to come out victorious. He is the type who thrives getting the ball in his hands in pressure situations. He has enough competitiveness for the position and plays with toughness, competing on every down. He plays at an even tempo and rarely gets rattled on the field.
Work Habits: Nicks applies himself in practices and games. He is a self-starter in the training room and an adequate student. He is a team leader and takes pride in that role, but is not the rah-rah type who needs to shout to get his point across.
ATHLETIC REPORT: GRADE: 7.36
Quickness: Nicks shows good quickness once he builds up in his stride. He has deceptive speed to eat up the cushion and looks very smooth getting into his routes. He compensates for a lack of blazing speed with his excellent body control, balance and agility to gain valid yardage after the catch.
Route Running: Nicks is never going to be able to generate the explosion needed to simply separate, but he is a precise route runner who comes out of his breaks cleanly, doing a nice job of generating YAC when used on slants. For a player of his size, he gets in and out of cuts so well, thanks to his ability to drop and sink his weight. He is shifty in the open and uses solid head and shoulder fakes to con his man on his patterns. He shows the vision and balance to come back for the ball on option routes. His savvy moves usually gets cornerbacks to come out of their backpedal and commit too early. He gets a very good push off the defender with his hand usage.
Separation Ability: Nicks' footwork is well above average when trying to separate. He uses his power well to get a clean release and while he is not going to gobble up the cushion on every deep pattern, he has enough of a short-area burst to settle in the soft spots.
Ball Concentration: Nicks does a nice job of maintaining focus on the ball in flight. Because he will not be able to suddenly run under every ball, maintaining position and tracking the ball is what he does best to compensate.
Ball Adjustment: Nicks is a contortionist, as he is always twisting and turning his frame to get into position to make the catch. His long arms let him adjust to the balls thrown down low and he has the extension to get to the high throws outside of his frame. You can see on film that he will simply go over people to get to the ball.
Hands: What separates Nicks from the other two North Carolina receivers eligible in the draft is his natural hands. He is a natural pass catcher and keeps on getting better. His soft hands let him snatch and pluck. He also makes very good body adjustments to deliver the over-the-shoulder grabs. His concentration skills are above average and it is rare to see him drop the ball due to a lack of focus. He does a fine job of catching away from his body and is fearless going for the ball in a crowd.
Blocking Ability: This is a hard area to gauge Nicks in. Whether it is a lack of desire or poor technique, it is rare to see him throw a block for a teammate in the open field. He will face up with aggression at the line of scrimmage, but does not always give total effort. Has to become more involved in this area.
Compares to: Roddy White, Atlanta -- Actually, Hicks looks more like a smaller version of Keyshawn Johnson. He has very good power and runs precise routes, displaying some of the best hands in this draft. He won't be a cornerback on deep patterns using pure speed, but he's a savvy route runner who is also light on his feet for a player his size.
OVERALL GRADE: 7.33
Nicks has the hands and strength facing press coverage that might make him a bit more capable of separating from physical DBs. What makes him an intriguing prospect for the Colts is his field vision, body control, route running and excellent hands which tend to indicate that Nicks will be successful in the NFL. The things a WR needs most in the NFL are already well developed in Nicks. That's not to say he wouldn't benefit from continued development but he works hard and may yet have an upside to be a strong receiver as a professional.
Another Scouting Report - FFToolbox.com
COMPARISON:
The easiest way to break down the comparisons between Harvin and Nicks is to differentiate between a speedy, game-breaking, big-play receiver who's small stature can make him susceptible to injury but also gives him the World Class agility to be as elusive as any prospect coming into this year's draft against a guy who has more size and strength, along with hands and vision to be an exceptional possession receiver but will not bring the kind of "game-breaking" ability which will cause opponents to realize that he could break a long run after the catch at any moment. One WR is more suited to filling the slot position and using his breaks to catch shorter passes which he can break into longer gains. The other uses consistent route running, strength in press coverage and body control to excel in slants and come-back routes, as well as fade routes on the goal line. Both players should be solid contributors. Which player is better? Heh.
YOU DECIDE
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors.
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As Always
Another terrific Fanpost by Stampede Blue’s unofficial writing Fellow. Keep up the good work bamock. Your great articles show your dedication to the Colts.
Rec’d +1
Dun nuh nuh nuhhhh!!!! Super Mathis
by hoosier in sodak on Apr 5, 2009 12:20 AM EDT reply actions
P.S.
I think Harvin has, by far, the higher ceiling, but Nicks is more prepared to contribute now. Doesn’t matter if I like Harvin better, no way the Colts pick him unless he falls all the way to their second. (Pay attention kids… smokin pot costs you money)
Dun nuh nuh nuhhhh!!!! Super Mathis
by hoosier in sodak on Apr 5, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
well as of now
the report is unconfirmed and looking shady. Teams and the league offices don’t have drug test results yet.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
by shake n bake on Apr 5, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Voted for Harvin
Better upside and speed for the role he’ll likely to assume.
Nicks wouldn’t be unwelcome though.
PS. Rec’d
Agree
IF they select a WR in the 1st round, I would prefer Harvin over Nicks (even with the pending allegations about failed tests) but I would rather see defense or maybe OL in the 1st than a receiver.
My opinion
I was enamored with the thought of Percy Harvin after his big performance in the BCS championship. He was a true gamebreaker at the college level, something that the Colts could really use. But after doing some research I found out he rubbed many of his teammates the wrong way. The injury concerns are well documented as well as the potential to be a “boom or bust.” IMO, there are just too many question marks that come with picking up Percy Harvin with the first pick.
I really like Hakeem Nicks’ physical style of play. The only valid weakness about him is the lack of breakaway speed. Watching his highlight films, it seemed to me he had alot of YAC yards. Every receiver has their weaknesses. If it weren’t for the speed questions, Nicks would probably be mentioned with the likes of Crabtree and Maclin as far as top receivers in the draft go.
Totally agree.
And as we all know speed is overrated. The Colts will take hands and route running over speed any day.
PS. I always look forward to these Fanposts. Great write-up as usual bamock, another Rec from me. Nice pic as well :P
It's a bird, it's a plane... no it's Supermathis!!!
by AussieColtsFan on Apr 5, 2009 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Crabtree is widely regarded as the top reciever
Despite speed questions being tossed at him, so that isn’t really valid.
I like Nicks a lot
Amazing hands (watch the video of him passing the ball behind his back in traffic to see the way he can control the football), great routes, big, strong and fast enough to get deep.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
Excellent FanPost,
and the recipient of my first ever rec.
Nicks seems like just the guy we need in the slot to complement Gonzo and Wayne outside. I want him!
Now a proud annoyance on Stampede Blue, 18to88, Indy Football Report, and Phil B's blog.
Man, I need a life...
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: In my bedroom, I have 3 footballs with both Mike Vanderjagt's and Gilbert Gardner's signatures on them. Interesting story. Maybe I'll tell you about it sometime.
It’s not going to matter though. Polian isn’t going to draft either one of these guys.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
There’s almost as a good as a chance that Polian will draft one of these players (WR in general) than a DT in my opinion in the first round.
by ColtsFanNChiTown on Apr 6, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Offensive lineman.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
K
If you could, give me two players you feel might best fit the Colts system/needs. I will get on it.
Eben Britton and William Beatty
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
One last question...
It is clear that you’d like to get a OT, correct? Are you looking to replace Ugoh or Diem with the pick? RT or LT?
Yeah, Beatty and Britton are OTs. The side in which they play doesn’t matter to me. The objective would be to replace Diem with a younger and more talented player, whether that means Britton/Beatty would take the LT spot and Ugoh gets moved to RT, or Ugoh stays and Beatty/Britton start at RT. No matter what happens, the o-line would theoretically be better and maybe the Colts could run to the right for once.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
And...
With these two prospects, you envision them playing where exactly? You’re excited about these two guys, so I assume you know a bit about them already. When you envision them coming onto the team providing an immediate impact, did you think they’d be starting at LT or did you think they’d be starting at RT? They may be able to play either position and it may not matter to you which position they ultimately play. But it seems Diem is your target. Do you see these players replacing Ugoh and Ugoh moving over. Or did you see them coming in as immediate starters at RT?
Initially
Probably start out at RT and then move to LT. That’s the normal evolution of the tackle. Probably put Diem back at RG, Ugoh at LT, Beatty/Britton at RT, Saturday at C, and whoever at LG (Richard/Justice, basically the one that’s going to be Saturday’s replacement). That’d probably be the best way to start, with the possibility of Beatty/Britton moving to LT and sliding Ugoh to RT if he’s even on the roster in a couple years. I guess you could put Lilja at RG if he comes back healthy. That’s alot of money sitting on the bench with Diem. But you really can’t sit all the rookies, the one that needs game experience to replace Saturday needs to be next to him while he can. Hmm…we’re going to have quite a few lineman sitting on the bench.
Oh well, I think that’s probably what he had in mind.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
Ugoh, Richard, Saturday, Pollak, Beatty/Britton
Lilja already restructed this season, and if he wants a job I’m sure he’ll restructure his whole contract and could be pretty good guard depth. Same goes for Johnson, more depth at guard. The problem is that Diem is making some good money, so he’d have to be willing to restructure, or get cut. If he restructures, great, we don’t have to worry about anything. If he refuses and he gets cut, then another pick in the draft would suffice in adding some more depth.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
Lilja already *restructured his contract for this season. :(
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
Diem
Diem won’t be benched in favor of a rookie. He’d probably be cut before that happened. By the way, I understand some of the angst towards Diem, but I think you might be dogging the guy too much. He was the only lineman to start 16 games, and he was actually the best position on the line that wasn’t the left TE.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
(ALY stands for adjusted line yards)
Listed as Position – ALY, Rank;% of runs
LTE – ALY 4.92, Rank: 9th; 15%
LT – ALY 4.09 Rank 18th; 14%
MID/Guard – ALY 4.20 Rank 18th; 47%
RT – ALY 4.29 Rank 15th; 10%
RTE – ALY 2.73 Rank 31st; 14%
So really, only 1 out of every 10 run plays went to the RT spot. And Diem was the most efficient player on the line not named Gijon or Santi, or whoever else lined up at LTE. I’ll tell you I’m not really surprised at the 31st ranking of our RTE. I don’t think Dallas or Tamme will win many blocking contests, but now we’re placing their responsibility on Diem. In fact, if our RTE kept up with the rest of the line, we’d probably be in the 12-15 rushing rank. So in reality, Pettigrew would be a much bigger upgrade.
I had actually thought about that at one point, but figured everyone would point and laugh at me. If you move Dallas to the slot and get Pettigrew (who’s probably the best blocking TE in the draft and a pretty good receiver), you’d probably see better results. I mean the evidence is right there. The only guy to start the entire season was the most efficient O-lineman for us. Can’t really blame him if we’re not using a FB and running out of a 2 TE set and our TE can’t block. Our TEs have to be better blockers than normal TEs because most teams have a FB lead blocking for the RB. The stretch, which we run quite a bit, is efficient when your TE can contain the DE.
Hmm, that was interesting. In fact, if our line is healthy this season, and our TEs start blocking, we should see a drastic increase in running efficiency. And since sliding Clark over to the slot receiver would create an open spot for that RTE spot, placing Santi over there or getting a TE that can receive AND block would probably help our line out more than any lineman right now. And since Ugoh is still at least a year away from being labeled a bust, I’m not sure how much more depth we need.
Maybe not a Pettigrew, although I really wouldn’t be surprised if the Colts see moving Dallas into the slot and improving their blocking at the RTE position, but maybe a Bear Pascoe or an Anthony Hill could be an option. Tamme can’t block, maybe Santi can stay healthy.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
I wouldn't call the end runs the TE blocking specifically
it’s based on the play by play. Runs are left/right, end, tackle, guard or mid.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
Right
But they list the RT and LTs. The guards are together, but the tackles are listed seperately. Are you saying that they’re putting RTs as ends too if nobody is at the end? We have like the 4th highest rushes towards our RE and we run the stretch pretty often. We run out of the 2 TE set more than most teams because they use FBs and we don’t. Well, we’ll use an H back, but that’s Gijon anyway.
My point is, Diem was the only one that played the entire season right? And he played RT every game, which is called out as RT in the stats right? 4% more runs went to the RE than the RT, and our RE rank was the second worst in the league. Since the stretch is one of our most used run plays, that’s normally the responsibility of the TE to seal the DE long enough for the RB to get to the left defensive ends left shoulder or engage a LB coming towards the line. If they listed tackles also being ends if they’re not lined up next to a TE, the percentages would be MUCH higher. Especially since we’re one of the few teams that run a 2 TE set. If they were saying a RT is a RT when he’s lined up next to a TE and he’s a RE when he’s uncovered, it totally makes that table meaningless because it’s not pointing out the trouble areas. It’s saying “someone on that side of the line is messing up, but we don’t know who it is.” Not to mention that it seems a little inconsistant for Diem to be ranked 15th when blocking with a receiving TE that’s not known for blocking, and he plummets to the second worst in the league when he’s by himself?
Is that what you’re saying? And mid and guard are one, not or.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
I'm saying I'm pretty sure "End" is talking about any run that's wide of the tackle
I’m not arguing with the overall analysis just that I think the end runs aren’t nearly as good a measure of TE blocking as the interior marked runs are of the OL, because it includes everything from going right behind the TE to a sweep.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
Right
And on a sweep, a stretch, or a TE lead, the TE is responsible for blocking. The split is almost identical, with the left end position being 1% higher. So unless Addai and Rhodes just can’t run right, the blocking is a factor. Specifically the TE. And since we run sweeps and stretches pretty regularly to both sides, it’s extremely important. And since Diem is actually the best on the line and we use a 3 WR set and put Clark on routes (normally from the right side) it means that Diem is blocking fine when he’s by himself and runs are going to his side, but when a TE is blocking and there’s a run to the outside of the tackle towards the TE position is where the problem is.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
Before I even came to this post this evening (after seeing him on the NFL Network), I was really thinking about what if Pettigrew fell in the draft somehow or the Colts traded up to get him (do not see it happening either way though) how crazy the offense would be. The Colts offense was at their best when they had two solid TEs (Dilger, Pollard…Pollard, Clark…Clark, Utecht) and Pettigrew would not also be an uprade as a rush blocker, but he also will be a very solid pass receiver. Tamme may in fact be just a backup in case of an injury or there’s a transition of Clark moving to the slot more. Santi is very well capable as the second TE who can block, but also be that 4th or 5th option in the receiving game sort of like a Ben Utecht(ish). But either way though, I would be static if Pettigrew somehow was picked up by the Colts.
by ColtsFanNChiTown on Apr 7, 2009 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
If you could kind of tell, for all those people crying for O-line help and all the people crying for receiving help, Pettigrew would upgrade both. He’d be the best blocking TE on the team, and the second or third best receiver behind Clark and maybe Tamme. Huge redzone threat. Type of guy Peyton can lob a cheesy corner of the endzone fade to. Funny you mention Pollard, he reminds me of him, but I think Pettigrew’s a better blocker.
I think a Santi Ugoh Richard Saturday Lilja Diem Pettigrew would be a sick O-line and still have Pettigrew as a serious receiving threat. Unless everyone’s worried about losing Dallas’ blocking on the line and thinking he doesn’t do great in the slot anyway.
Although not my first choice, maybe not even my top 5, I wouldn’t be pissed with Pettigrew at 27.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
Damn I hope not
My dad is a Bears fan and he bet me $10 the Colts will take a TE with one of their first 3 picks. I already have to pay the man $15 since UNC covered the spread against Mich St
by ColtsPurdueFanFromKY on Apr 8, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Your bet is a pretty safe one.
The Colts have the most depth at TE with Clark, Robinson, Tamme, and Santi.
Now a proud annoyance on Stampede Blue, 18to88, Indy Football Report, and Phil B's blog.
Man, I need a life...
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: In my bedroom, I have 3 footballs with both Mike Vanderjagt's and Gilbert Gardner's signatures on them. Interesting story. Maybe I'll tell you about it sometime.
There's a big difference
Between bodies and quality depth. If the only factor that determines depth is how many bodies you have at a position, we have as much depth at WR, OT, 1 short at DT, and we have more depth at DB and LB.
Tamme can’t block, Santi can’t catch, Clark’s not the best blocker, Gijon is average at best.
I don’t see it happening either, but the term “depth” means much more than that. Especially since we use a 2 TE set. Look what happened last year, we had to sign Petrowski off the Titans practice squad.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
Out of the 3 (Gijon, Tamme, and Santi), I think Santi would be the best choice as the 2nd TE if healthy. I thought Santi (not looking at stats) caught the ball alright and showed with the little time he was on the field that he can be a solid 4th or 5th option. He had that big catch in Houston that helped turn that game around and I also believe he had several catches against the Vikings. But he wasn’t on the field enough due to injuries to make me feel comfortable that he will the best reliable option as the 2nd TE, but nor does Tamme and Robinson. I don’t think picking up a TE is a need or may not even be considered by the Colts, but I won’t be suprised either though if a TE is picked up early.
by ColtsFanNChiTown on Apr 8, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Between bodies and quality depth. If the only factor that determines depth is how many bodies you have at a position, we have as much depth at WR, OT, 1 short at DT, and we have more depth at DB and LB.
Thank you! This is exactly what I’ve been saying about the RB position for weeks now. The WR position is different though. There actually is quality depth there. But at LB, RB, OT, and UT needs some work.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
Yep
Absolutely no depth at DT. We don’t even know who’s going to start at all. WR has two solid starters and Clark. I’ve agreed for awhile that we need a solid RB back there with Addai.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
you mean NT
UT has Foster, Dawson and the option of sliding Brock inside.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
by shake n bake on Apr 8, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't forget A. Johnson. He should start next year.
Now a proud annoyance on Stampede Blue, 18to88, Indy Football Report, and Phil B's blog.
Man, I need a life...
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: In my bedroom, I have 3 footballs with both Mike Vanderjagt's and Gilbert Gardner's signatures on them. Interesting story. Maybe I'll tell you about it sometime.
that would be a NT
I’m pretty sure that Foster/Dawson > Johnson/Muir
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
by shake n bake on Apr 8, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
....
Dude Dawson sucks. WAY too small to be an affective. Besides, you are clamoring over the idea of drafting Jerry or Hood in the first, but yet you think UT is fine?
We also need at least one more NT in case Johnson or Muir gets hurt.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
Effective that is. You know what I meant.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
Jerry or Hood would spend most of their time at NT
and if Dawson sucks and isn’t effective then what does it say about Antonio Johnson and Daniel Muir that Dawson was starting over them?
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
Uh
It means that Muir was cut from Green Bay and injured last season and Johnson was signed off a practice squad in the middle of the season and didn’t know the system? When Foster missed time, the run defense was noticeably worse even while Dawson was playing with Johnson.
And why would Hood or Jerry spend most of their time at NT? They’re 3 technique UTs. You want to move them out of the position that they did well in and made themselves first round picks? In fact I think it’d be the other way around and they’d spend most of their time at UT and slide to NT during passing situations and bring in Dawson or Foster as the UT on those downs. Personally, I’d rather have Gilbert/Baker than just Jerry or Hood.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
McFarland was a 3 tech in Tampa
Indy’s NTs are big 3 techs types who convert over.
They became first round picks for being disruptive forces in the middle. That’s what they’d be at either spot. I don’t think they have to be NTs, and they might be better UTs than NTs, but I think Foster and Dawson are much better than the guys they were starting over. Foster wasn’t exactly a veteran to the system, but they still stuck 265lb him in a NT over a 310lber who played in a somewhat similar system.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
by shake n bake on Apr 9, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I know
And while I understand what he added to the Colts in the post season, he started 11 games on the 32nd ranked rush defense coming from the exact same system. Simon was much better than Booger. And Booger was better than anyone we have right now.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
McFarland played both NT and UT, but primarily NT in TB. Not sure where you heard he was a UT only.
I don’t understand why you want Jerry or Hood so bad if you think Foster and Dawson are so good. Those guys play a completely different position than Muir and Mookie, so how can you even say Foster and Dawson are better than “the guys they started over?” Monstersbox already explained why they started over them, but that doesn’t mean they are better.
This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.
Oh and I write words and stuff for Stampede Blue.
when he came over
I’m pretty sure he was playing both as the 3rd DT.
I looked because I wasn’t sure and there were plenty of references to him coming out and while in Tampa as a 3 tech or UT.
Either way he’s a really similar player to Jerry and Hood. Big and strong enough to play NT, quick enough to play UT.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
by shake n bake on Apr 9, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Dawson/Foster/Johnson/Muir
Are the backups backups backups. Pitcock was drafted for his ability to stop the run so Booger could go to UT, where he plays much better. Booger jacks his knee up, in comes Johnson, a backup. Johnson gets cut, Pitcock retires, and now you have the Colts last pick in the draft and an UDFA starting at tackle until they pick up dudes from other teams practice squads and released players. If they intended Booger to play NT, they wouldn’t have drafted Pitcock, they would’ve gone after a UT or someone who could play either. Read the scouting report on Pitcock. The only position he would’ve played on the Colts was NT.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
McFarland was old and expensive
I think it’s just as likely that he was there to backup and eventually replace McFarland.
Unless they came out and said it, guessing how Indy intended to use all the moving parts on the DL is just guessing.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
by shake n bake on Apr 9, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
He wasn't that old
And they gave up a 2nd round pick for him right? I don’t think they’d give up a high pick just to draft his replacement the next season.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
desperation?
they REALLY needed a NT that season.
and it worked quite well.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
and again, I'm a value believer
If an excellent NT was there for them in the 3rd, I’d think Polian would pull the trigger and worry about whether he’s the backup/future or the starter once he gets to camp.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
which is what I think he did with Pitcock
in case I wasn’t clear
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
Johnson
While I think Johnson may be a decent backup, I’m not 100% sold on him. When I went back through the films, he started seeing the field about the same time we started using a 4-2-5 more often.
And Richard’s right, if you guys think there’s solid depth at NT/UT, don’t knock him for his RB love in rounds 1 (if Moreno possibly) or Jennings/Brown in round 2.
Dawson at 254 and Foster at 265 isn’t where we want to be. I don’t agree 100% with Richard that Dawson sucks, because he’s a good player, but just because he’s a good player doesn’t mean we should be putting him on the field giving up 50-100 lbs.
The problem is, we have way too many DEs. That’s the position we’re deep at. Foster may be a decent pass rushing UT, but not an everydown DT. I mean, we have Dawson and Foster, 2 pass rushing DTs with a total of 0 sacks between the 2. And why Dawson started over Foster in the playoff game is beyond me.
Maybe Coyer should just have Dawson compete for the SAM position. He’s basically the same size as Seward and not much bigger than Wheeler.
Jim Sorgi runs a 4.6 40. That's all I've got to say about that.
What about...
Marcus Howard at LB? Wasn’t that his position in college anyway? I have nothing to support this other than that, just a “novel” suggestion.
off the top of my head
he came to Georgia as a LB, but by the time he was playing he was a DE.
I got Summer hatin' on me cuz I'm hotter than the sun. Spring hatin' on me cuz I ain't never sprung
Winter hatin' on me cuz I'm colder than Y'all. And I will never, I will never, I will never Fall.
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter
by shake n bake on Apr 9, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I've been more of a Nicks guy
but I voted for Harvin just because of what he could do for our return game. It would really be great if we had a guy who could score, threaten long returns and generally scare the other team. Just makes life easier, assuming of course he could stay healthy
"If you don't [draft me], I promise you I'll come back and kick your ass for the next 15 years."
Great Post
Great post Bamock! Very informative. I like both players. However, I voted for Harvin based on the picture alone. Bob Sanders has been my man crush for a few years now. If Harvin puts on the blue & white that could change things. My wife should be mildly concerned.
NICKS
ive said it before, ill say it again. as a unc student, i have had the pleasure of both meeting hakeem and watching him play. good kid, good teammate, obscene ability to make impossible, inconceivable, not-possible-in-a-video-game catches every single game. im everyone had seen his behind the legs catch in the bowl game, but i cant count the number of lay out, against hit momentum, one handed catches ive seen him make. and every single one was in a pressure packed situation.
the kid wears 4x gloves for god sakes… you want to move gonzo into the slot? why not just draft hakeem and leave gonzo where he belongs, complementing reggie on the outside. the biggest thing is hakeem in the middle will get single teams for whoever he is paired with, reggie or gonzo.
No offense
But could you try to be a little less biased?

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