Lets be real: The O Line
by MasterRWayne on Jun 23, 2009 1:09 AM EDT
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PrintLets be real here and say honestly that this is a pretty talented Colts team. I mean just look at the defense alone, in which the Colts are stacked at defensive back, linebacker and defensive line. Not only are the starters good, but the backups have talent and experience as well. For instance, a player like Melvin Bullitt could be a starter on a lot of other teams and here he is backing up two excellent starters in Bethea and Sanders. Even on offense at the WR position the Colts I think have a ton of talent despite the fact that they lost Marvin Harrison. This receiving corp is better than the one we fielded last year especially if Garcon is coming along as well as we keep hearing. However, there is a big giant black spot on the Colts roster and that is the Offensive line.
Photo: photos.indystar.com
Now I am a big Colts fan, but many of you know that I don't sugar coat players and performances. When it comes to things like that I am just a football fan and not really a Colts fan because I feel its important to keep an objective point of view on those issues. If I see a player not performing well or a scheme not working I am going to be vocal about it. Last year the Colts Offensive Line struggled and there were no big free agent signings or high round draft picks to correct this. Instead, the Colts signed some little known free agents like Brandon Barnes from the arena league and we spent a 7th round draft pick on Jaimie Thomas. Now these guys may work out, and I hope they do, but they are unproven and therefore it still leaves a number of glaring holes in the offensive line.
Now before I sound negative I think its important to point out that there is some signs of hope and most of that concerns the interior Offensive line. I feel the Colts are very strong here with a healthy Lilja, Saturday, Richards, Pollak and Steve Justice. This is a strong core group of players, but it still has some question marks. Is Lilja 100% healthy? Will Pollak improve on his very sub-par 2008 season? These are serious questions, but the good news is we still have a pro-bowler in Saturday and two good young players in Justice and Richards. I can't help, but feel the interior O-Line has boom or bust written all over it.
Offensive Tackle is another matter because there are some sizable issues here. Last year Diem was dinged up and his performance was average at best. We don't know if he has a long term condition that is bothering him so there is a big question mark regarding how effective we are at RT. At LT Tony Ugoh has been a bit of a disappointment. Now I know Lilja came to Ugoh's defense recently, but the fact remains that Ugoh did not play for a few games last year (he was wretched in the Bears game) and he was not on the injury report which means he was benched due to a lack of performance. Ugoh has been struggling and the Colts are upset that they have spent a 1st and a 2nd round draft pick on a guy that can't stay healthy and has, thus far, failed to develop despite a promising rookie season. He started off strong, but has stagnated recently. Our backups are sub-par as well with Charlie Johnson, Daniel Federkeil, Michael Toudoze and rookie 7th rounder Jaimie Thomas. Some of those guys are "serviceable" but I don't have much faith in any of them to start long term for the Colts in case of an injury to Ugoh or Diem. I see question marks at LT, RT and in our backups.
Again, I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade here. I think this Colts team is very talented. We have depth and talent at every single position. However, as I outlined above, I have real reservations about this Offensive line. Many of you know my position that I put a lot of stock in the idea that you have to be strong at the "point of attack." This means that the O-Line and the D-Line are the two most valuable positions on any team. If you don't have those then it affects everything else. You could have the best secondary in the world, but they will still be carved up if you have no pass rush with the D-line. You could have the best QB in the world (like say... Peyton Manning), but his effectivness will be limited if he doesn't have time. I firmly believe that the success of the Colts this year completely depends on whether the O-Line develops or not. We have the talent at the other positions, but so much depends on the O-Line. If they struggle the Colts might be in trouble, but if they develop then the Colts will be in a very good position.
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I agree
Hi Guys,
This is my first comment. So you will have to forgive me if I say anything wrong.
First of all I think colossal mistake letting Jake Scott go. Furthermore I though it would have been better served if we had drafted another OL instead of a Quarterback. I guess the colts known something we do not know.
I mean they did go and get two guys in free agency and remember we could still get more players through the waver wirer like we did with Lilja a couple of years ago. I guess we will all have to wait and see if it all works when the season begins.
Hind sight is 20/20
It was either Jake Scott or Lilja, with our cap space we couldn’t keep both and at the time the Colts thought Lilja was the better fit. But he got injured and was out the entire season and Scott went on to Tennessee to have a very successful year. It sucks balls.
Need I remind you
That the colts get GREAT O-Line talent in the late rounds. Our pro-Bowl center was undrafted obviously, and there are plenty of other guys that were taken late and coached up by the still very-much active Mudd.
The problem is that guys like Ugoh, who is supposed to be better than guys picked later is a giant question mark. If you ask me, i dont really trust Tony, he lacks passion, commitment, i dont know. Even if his teammates support him telling us that he works really hard, and has a great work ethic, we cannot really take that for granted. They are teammates and need to support him but he really doesnt seem like a reliable tackle. Or is it that Tarik Glenn was just too good?
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha...OK" - Tom Brady
by BlueMark1821 on Jun 23, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
hopefully a healthy season will fix things on the o-line.
stacked at linebacker? really??
"If you don't [draft me], I promise you I'll come back and kick your ass for the next 15 years."
Disagree
We have proven starting-level talent two-deep at every spot. I’d say that’s as stacked as it’s ever been.
I agree
The LB position is very good this year. Not only does it have youth and speed, but it also has experience.
by MasterRWayne on Jun 23, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess it depends on how you interpret the word “stacked.” If stacked means we have a bunch of linebackers, then yes we are stacked. But to me, stacked means we have great linebacker talent and have solid depth in case one of the starters goes down.
We have decent depth, in that the backups have nearly the same talent level as the starters, but if you think we have one of the top LB groups in the league you are wrong. Brackett is the best we’ve got and although he is a solid pass defender, his run D is avg at best. Session is improving by the game, but still a little raw at this point. And Wheeler is (fill in the blank) because no one knows yet.
With improved DL play I hope the LBs will play better, but it’s just hope at this point. The Colts LBs haven’t exactly been worldbeaters in, well….ever.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me."
Run vs. Pass
I think the offense in general needs to get back to a more balanced approach, with an emphasis on running the ball. Too much is put in #18’s hands to win every game with his arm, and during our only SB run we won by having a committment to the run game. Even down 21-6 to the Pats, we came out running.
I know that some will say, “how do you stay committed when you can’t run the ball?” but I think they are too quick to abandon the run. I haven’t researched, so please prove me wrong, but it seems like last year Peyton was dropping back to pass an even higher % than in recent years. There should be little argument that Peyton has more confidence in his ability to pass for the TD than running it in when in the red zone. We should not be throwing the ball 40 times a game when so many of our games are either close (Colts rarely get blown out) or blowouts in our favor. Staying committed to the run also helps control the clock (see: TOP) and keep our defense on the bench resting.
I wonder if any changes to the offensive coaching staff may bring about some positive changes in creating a more balanced approach and not going with a pass first philosophy every time.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me."
but it seems like last year Peyton was dropping back to pass an even higher % than in recent years
That’s because they couldn’t run the ball at all earlier in games to control the clock and wear out the defenses. So by the time the second half started, they were already in the hole and basically had to abandon the run and pray that Peyton had a miracle up his sleeve. That, was last season in a nutshell.
Yeah, so I sold out, do something about it! Like read my site Colts Chatter.
Agreed
When looking at the talent we had a QB and the talent we had at RB placing the game in Manning’s hands was the obvious choice.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on Jun 23, 2009 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions
A counterargument
The O-Line was not THAT bad last year. Yes, the run blocking was miserable, but pass protection was incredibly solid, less than one sack per game allowed. Given the increase in dropbacks, that’s a pretty incredible stat. The players need to improve their run blocking without question, but I fail to see a lack of depth or talent in a line that only allowed 14 sacks all season long despite being murdered by injuries.
It's an incredible stat but...
Manning gets the credit for getting rid of the ball. I think he was the least sacked, but most often hit quarterback in the league last year. The pass protection was as bad as the run blocking last year.
true on Manning getting rid of the ball but
I doubt he was the most hit quarterback, I think that reward goes to Roethlisberger
Where do you get your data
That he was the “most hit” QB last year. Yes, Manning gets the ball off quickly – but that won’t do any good if he doesn’t have receivers open, so he has to wait at least that long. He wasn’t just throwing it away or his QB rating would be in the tank. The O-line did a damn fine job of pass protection last year.
With Brown on the team this year we’ll have a better idea of how good the line’s run-blocking is. If Addai still blows this year like he did last year and Brown is putting up big solid numbers then we’ll know that the line is doing its job and the problem last year was the RB.
I don’t doubt that the line needes improvement, in fact there is no question considering the rookie make-up of the line last year. However, this business of blaming the running game woes almost exclusively on the line is way over the top.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on Jun 23, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't have the data
I think I read it on FO, but I don’t pay for their game-tracking or advanced stats so I can’t verify it. I didn’t say that he was just throwing it away. However, he was forced to throw it sooner and into tighter spots, and the receivers were forced to change their routes to get open sooner. He acknowledged this explicitly in an interview after the Minnesota game. I’m not looking up the link for that either.
I remember a stat
which reflected Peyton being one of the most (if not the most) pressured QBs last year. The fact that he could get rid of the ball in a hurry saved him from having the most sacks, but the pressure (due to the OL) was unbelievable.
I think Shake posted the stats on here. I have been looking but have been unable to locate it as of yet…I will keep searching.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Jun 23, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Only reason the o-line gave up 14 sacks
was Mannings quick release.
You remember how people were complaining about receivers running short of the sticks? well the immediate release by Manning prompted alot of those.
by metal_militia on Jun 24, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Donnie Brown
It is more than a little worrying that we drafted a top-line running back that may not be able to do much behind our line. I think we should acknowledge just how unbelievably good Manning was in the 2nd half of the season last year (esp. in the Jacksonville and Pitt games.) Even if Addai converted on the 3rd-and-2 in San Diego, I doubt we would have been able to go the distance with our running game and O-line. We just couldn’t grind it out on the ground the way we did in the 2006 Playoffs, which is what made the difference in all of the Playoff games and particularly SB XLI.
That being said, if the O-line DOES get repaired, Addai and Donnie Brown should be able to control and win games on the ground for us.
What Ifs
I think we matched up better with the Steelers last year than any other team. The Steelers weren’t a great running team last year and Roethlisberger holds on to the ball a while which would play into Freeney and Mathis’ hands. And obviously we would have matched up well with Baltimore if it got to that point also.
But we’ll never know.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me."
I have to believe that Polian knew what he was doing
when he didn’t draft any OL guys early in the draft. He must know something we don’t. As usual. I think Lilja will be back healthy. I think the “trial by fire” the 2nd year guys got as rookies last year will most definitely help. I even have faith in Ugoh to step-up.
Maybe I’m naive, or ignorant, but I can’t recall being more excited for the season begin than I am now. I think this Colts team is going to be very scary – in most, if not all, facets of the game.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Jun 23, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions
experience
That is a good point. The O-Line is certainly a position that grows as a cohesive unit, and it is much harder to identity a standout guy, as opposed to a top-flight Wideout or RB. It stands to reason that our O-Line will get progressively better this year due to the experiences in the trenches last year.
I agree
I think it is overlooked far too often that Polian didn’t use any early picks on the O-line but he did spend the first round pick on a new RB.
Before the draft I said (not sure if it was here or not) we didn’t need to draft a WR early because our WR corps was solid. I was excoriated for it because we just lost Harrison I was told – he has to be replaced. In my defense I contended that we’ll see how satisfied Polian is with who is on the roster when he doesn’t pick a WR in the first couple of rounds – in fact I predicted it wouldn’t be until the fourth round.
By the same measure we can see how satisfied Polian was with the O-line by the fact that he didn’t spend any early picks on them at all. In fact, the only attention he gave the O-line was by picking up some training camp fodder and a 7th rounder – picking another QB before he paid attention to the O-line!
Conversely he spent the very first pick of the draft on a new RB. That tells me where he thinks the biggest problem lies.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on Jun 23, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Obviously Ugoh wasn't playing awesome before he was hurt
but from Dr. Blue’s Ugoh post the expected recovery time is at least a few weeks, and he’d probably be physically limited for some time as well.
I think there are two plausible scenarios
1. Ugoh was benched for CJ
2. Ugoh was too physically limited to play LT, but could play a less mobile spot like blocking for FGs where he didn’t have to move laterally (likely how he got himself hurt) much.
and I guess you could pick some middle ground in there as well. The issue with #1 is that CJ was a vastly inferior player in 2007 and though he improved he wasn’t better than 2007 or late 08 Ugoh.
the issue with 2 is that Ugoh would have had to of sat in a pretty narrow classification for 3 weeks. A sure thing to play (keeping him off the injury report) but too limited to play LT.
Change these hundreds for me cashier, Cuz I ain't made it yet, but I'm better off than last year
And what it look like hun', I ain't never made it rain but it look like fun
-Drake, Still Drake
Good Post
First off, great write up, I really enjoy the fact that you are a Colts fan, but, remain objective. I also agree with you 100% about the o-lines preformance last year, their run blocking was crap, and their pass blocking was ok, however, I think Manning and the backs deserve a lot of the credit for the pass protection last year.
This year I think they will improve, mostly because of the strength of the interior line. There is so much youth, talent, experience and depth there that when they start to play really well, it will make the jobs of the tackles a bit easier. I also agree that there is a serious concern about the depth at tackle, that may be why Bill P. is bringing in so many people on the o-line this off season.
note:
I’m putting together a POST on the UDFA crop this year, and who will make the roster. I’m not ready for the post yet, but, since were talking about the O-line keep an eye out for this guy at training camp. Cornelius Lewis – Offensive Guard 6-3, 324 Tennessee State – very big and versital. He’s big has good feet and plays with a nasty demeanor, whats not to like. Well, got kicked off Florida State for fighting and rules violations in 2005.
Has all the tools, can play both guard and tackle, he’s ginormas and moves well; but, may not be able to get out of his own way. He had some academic issues along with the pot issues. He is such a physical freak that draft experts had this guy going any where from the third round back to the 7th round of last April’s draft. He probably thinks he should have been drafted, not being drafted may be the motivation he needs to take this NFL opportunity seriously.
If he gets his mind right, this guy could be a great find.
Defense if more important then breathing.
Not to get all numerical and shit, but...
MRW, Ugoh did not cost a 1st round pick AND a 2nd round pick as you stated. He cost a 2nd round pick. The Colts traded their 1st in 2008 for a 2nd in 2007 to pick him. So if you believe in “time value,” that something today is worth as much as a superior thing would be next year, that was an equivalent pick-for-a-pick trade. And with Glenn’s retirement, it was a godsend that we made that trade and pick. Because we NEEDED him and he played well as a rookie in 2007, I’d just refer to him as a 2nd rounder myself.
If they traded 2008’s 1st AND 2nd to get the 2nd in 2007, then you’d have a case. As well as a case for locking up Polian in the nuthouse.
I stand by my “injuries are to blame” position. Injuries to just about every OL player as well as their coach. Take away 23 starter games from the starting 5 (29% of the reg season game OL starts—a sub in nearly 1/3 of the time, of course there were problems!), add in a bunch of games where those guys played nicked up, mix with three rookies and a position coach who missed a few weeks himself due to surgery, and you have a crappy season. Add in health and an additional year of seasoning for the rookies, and I think it’s a very different picture. Now guys play nicked up all the time, and somebody is always getting injured, but not a perfect storm like we had.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
We didn't trade our 2nd rounder in 2007 for him
We traded that pick for Booger.
"I saw a commercial on late night TV, it said,'Forget everything you know about slipcovers.' So I did. And it was a load off my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell me slipcovers, and I didn't know what the hell they were."
-Mitch Hedberg
Understood, but I didn't mean to suggest that
In fact, the “Booger gap” in the 2nd round is why we needed to trade the 2008 first to get the 2007 2nd. Above I said we traded a 2008 1st FOR a 2007 2nd.
And once we made that 2nd round pick Ugoh, he became a 2nd rounder (except I forgot about the 4th in 2007 he also cost). Adding those two slots togetehr might push his value into the top 32…
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
Ugoh cost a 1st and a 4th
Indianapolis Colts: Acquire pick No. 42 (selected OT Tony Ugoh).
San Francisco 49ers: Acquire pick No. 126 (fourth round) and Colts’ first-round pick in 2008.
Change these hundreds for me cashier, Cuz I ain't made it yet, but I'm better off than last year
And what it look like hun', I ain't never made it rain but it look like fun
-Drake, Still Drake
by shake n bake on Jun 23, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I forgot about the 4th
As I noted above, adding his 2007 2nd slot and the 4th slot we traded, MIGHT equal a top-32 slot in terms of present value as of April 2007.
I still would not say he cost a 1st and 4th, since you are corssing years, and we got good production from him for one full season before we could have used that 2008 1st we traded away.
Put another way, if we won the SB with Ugoh at LT in 2007, would you have preferred we didn’t trade for him and still had our 2008 1st round pick? It’s a crazy supposition, but I made it to point out that we got good value out of him that year, a whole year before any 2008 1st rounder could have contributed. And if that contribution was enough to help us win it all, I can’t imagine anybody saying it was the wrong move.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
Before the draft...
I was very vocal about the fact that I viewed RB and OL as the two biggest needs for the Colts and I got in some heated debates with people that said WR and DT were bigger needs. I was a big fan on drafting guys like Eben Britton and Duke Robinson, but when Brown fell to us in the 1st round that was by far the best pick. As much as I liked Britton I felt that Brown was the best pick.
Funny thing is that, judging by the way Polian drafted, I was right about the RB need and maybe I am wrong about the O-Line need. I guess I would feel better if we also got a OL in rounds 4-5. That would have added some needed depth, but maybe the other guys can cut it. We will see.
OT will easily be our biggest need for the 2010 draft
I don’t trust Diem at all, and this is a make-or-break year for Ugoh. But I’m not too concerned with Ugoh. He still is a great player, but he just needs to stay healthy and stay positive. I wouldn’t be surprised if his benching last year had to do with him getting upset about his injuries and he didn’t perform because of that. f Ugoh can play 16 games, I think he can be just as good as Tarik Glenn was. I don’t have a big concern for any position. Guard is probably my biggest because of Pollak and Lilja, but then there are players like Jamey Richard and Charlie Johnson backing them up.
"I saw a commercial on late night TV, it said,'Forget everything you know about slipcovers.' So I did. And it was a load off my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell me slipcovers, and I didn't know what the hell they were."
-Mitch Hedberg
It will be the biggest need
I dont trust Diem either, but Ugoh is a big concern for me. I dont really see him as a great player, not to mention i dont see him becoming Tarik Glenn at all. Not even close. If he can play 16 games, we can see if he is a good tackle or not. So far, he hasnt been what we or the Colts expected him to be
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha...OK" - Tom Brady
by BlueMark1821 on Jun 23, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry, i meant " i dont see him becoming AS GOOD as Tarik Glenn"
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha...OK" - Tom Brady
by BlueMark1821 on Jun 23, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Charlie Johnson is a serviceable backup, but nothing more than that. I tell you though the team that really helped their O-Line this year was the Jaguars. Getting Eugene Monroe AND Eben Britton was a total coup. I know O-Line picks are not as “sexy” as picks like Hayward-Bey or Maclin, but they are often times the most important picks a team can make.
Just look at the Bengals. When their line was dominant and Palmer healthy they were a playoff team. When Palmer and their line got hurt they were one of the worst teams.
I liked those picks, too
I kind of ground my teeth when I saw them. There might have been more pressing needs for them, but those guys should set them up well at OL for years to come. Plus those guys are gonna love living in LA eventually!
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
I really hoped the Colts would address the O-line in day one...
Eben Britton in the first or Duke Robinson in the third would have been fine with me. As for what we have, well, it’s completely obvious that tackle is the team’s biggest weakness. Good call there, by the way.
I’m a little tired, though, of the assumption that since Ugoh was benched and he wasn’t on the injury report, that he was benched for something he did wrong. I’m a season ticket holder and I was at a couple games where he played only on PATs, and I remember thinking to myself that it seemed strange. But perhaps they just didn’t feel his body was ready for more reps. It’s detrimental to a line’s chemistry to sub in a different LT every series, which is what they’d have to do if Ugoh couldn’t make it for too many consecutive snaps, so maybe they just wanted to give him some burn, but nothing important because he wasn’t rehabbed fully.
That’s not to say Ugoh is the answer, or that he was mistake free. But I think that the Cotls have proven very un-Pacers-like in their ability to give lower drafted guys PT over highly drafted guys (if those lower drafted guys play better), and thus, admit mistakes when it equates to winning. So if they really thought Ugoh was crap, they’d have probably at least drafted a true tackle. I’m sure his feet will be to the fire this year, but if he can stay healthy I think he’ll make strides (or else they’d be looking elsewhere already…they’re too smart to be blindsided by a huge weakness at the line’s most important position…hence the overpreparing for the potential Saturday retirement/free agency that’s taken place over the past two years).
As fro Diem, he’s clearly the line’s weakest link, athletically. Glenn kept him from being exposed, but injured Ugoh/Charlie Johnson could not. God help us all if Diem and Johnson have to spend any more time together at the OT spots.
"You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?"
O-LINE/Help Line!!!
It seems that what i seen of the Oline last year was incosistance mainly lack of unity a thing since the arrival of Saturday has been a given but his injury and absense or playing with a handicap broke down the glue of the line. The fact that the offense was trying to become as effective as it was in the past helped keep the o/line on its heels an it was obvious that the Pass to run was backward and it should’ve been the other way around run to pass.Lets hope that will change Peyton could be so much more effective in that he is not a creator but a thinker but i do believe his thought process is more a pass to run process and that he was trying to reverse that thought but he was punishing his recievers. So the o/line will have to grow in the pushing of the line as both Joseph an the new kid can attack the holes in the middle and not just the edge.
I know nothing about the OTs for next year at this moment
I’m looking forward to spending 12 hours every Saturday either watching college football or driving to or from a college football game. That’s the best time of the year no doubt.
"I saw a commercial on late night TV, it said,'Forget everything you know about slipcovers.' So I did. And it was a load off my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell me slipcovers, and I didn't know what the hell they were."
-Mitch Hedberg
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