As someone said in the comments of another post, Manning v. Brady arguments have grown tiresome. Manning is better. Anyone who disagrees is an idiot, a Patriots fan, or an ESPN employee (or all three). Moving on. Nothing to see here.
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Brad Wells
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The homerism is strong in this one
BBS, you’re painting us with our own brush by calling someone else an idiot for thinking Brady is better than Manning. There are valid arguments on both sides of the coin, and we need to have a more intelligent position than, “Manning is better, and if you disagree you’re an idiot.”
Do I think Manning is better? Sure. Do I tell someone else his position is idiotic simply because he disagrees with me? Not unless I can beat him down with Vulcan-like logic.
You’re channeling a little too much KingRichard I fear.
How can you not love a team that does this?
Peyton is better
if you disagree you are over-inflating the importance of team success in evaluating an individual player.
Change these hundreds for me cashier, Cuz I ain't made it yet, but I'm better off than last year
And what it look like hun', I ain't never made it rain but it look like fun
-Drake, Still Drake
by shake n bake on Jun 23, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that Peyton is better
But just calling everyone who disagrees a moron is just a bit immature.
Is it September yet?
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Peyton is the King of all Football. Why?
I don’t have any stats in my head to prove it. I don’t need logic. My heart tells me he’s the ONE. When I’m watching a Pats game, I always think, Bill B. is behind all their success. When I’m watching a Colts game, It seems like Peyton is the reason they’re winning so many games.
"You can't defend the perfect throw, what can I say?" Peyton quoting Marino
Good One Morpheus
Peyton definitely has more to do with the Colts offense from a play-calling standpoint since it is his decision which of the plays called by Moore will be the one used, but I still have to give Brady a lot of credit for his ability to execute the plays called.
That said, I would take Manning to start my team if I was in the position to pick between the two. I think that’s what it all comes down to.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me."
I've searched the Matrix of the football world for the one with super human powers.
And I found him. Peyton Manning.
"You can't defend the perfect throw, what can I say?" Peyton quoting Marino
Brady v. Manning
Not even a knee injury can stop the worst argument in sports. Personally, I think Manning is better but a strong case can be made for Brady. You can’t say that it was all Belichick or Vinatieri or the defense. Brady is a HOF QB, but Manning is one of the greatest players to ever play the game. No one will win this argument. Both of them will be first ballot HOFers, and I would love to see them retire in the same year just so they can be inducted into the HOF in the same class. That would be perfect.
"I saw a commercial on late night TV, it said,'Forget everything you know about slipcovers.' So I did. And it was a load off my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell me slipcovers, and I didn't know what the hell they were."
-Mitch Hedberg
Them getting in during the same year would be awful. Then we’d have to sit through several more months of the stupid argument.
I don’t disagree with anything BBS says, but I wish he wouldn’t have said it, if only because it makes us all look like assholes. (Although, on the flip side, most of what Pats fans say makes them look like assholes so I guess it’s no big deal.)
Brady is great, but there’s really no argument in his favor other than the Super Bowl wins, which is projecting a team stat onto an individual player. Otherwise, every statistic, old or new, points to Peyton. Educated and knowledgeable eyes recognize that Manning is more capable as well. He’s just better. Not way way better, but better enough in all aspects for an unbiased person to notice.
Brady has improved substantially since winning those two Super Bowl MVPs he didn’t necessarily deserve, and behind him and Peyton the third best QB isn’t even close, but it’s not a 1a/1b thing at the top either. Peyton is 1 and Brady is 2.
A case could also be made that Peyton didn't deserve his Super Bowl MVP either.
Dominic Rhodes was the best player on the field that day.
Now a proud annoyance on Stampede Blue, 18to88, Indy Football Report, and Phil B's blog.
Man, I need a life...
Random facts of the week from the empty void that is my mind: I'm going to be going to Missouri (where there is no Internet or computers) for 2 weeks starting Monday, so I've got 3 of these for you.
1. You may have noticed before, but I love Scrubs. A lot. No seriously, I'm addicted to it, and here's why with this thrown in.
2. When you put thermite and blocks of ice together, you get a big boom. Nobody really knows why.
3. The Colts' (Indy and Baltimore's) all-time franchise record is 438-428-8. So, the Colts' just recently (2007 season) broke .500. That really tells you how bad the Colts were before Peyton.
Or Bob Sanders.
Too lazy to look up his exact stats, but a FF and an INT at least. Not bad.
Also, the game clinching pick six by Hayden.
by coltsfanawalt on Jun 26, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Addai had almost the exact same number of total yards
he just did more of it receiving.
That’s why neither won, they were both excellent, but equal so neither stood out enough to win it over Peyton who didn’t have flashy numbers thanks to the downpour and the Bears going super conservative after the long TD to Wayne.
Change these hundreds for me cashier, Cuz I ain't made it yet, but I'm better off than last year
And what it look like hun', I ain't never made it rain but it look like fun
-Drake, Still Drake
by shake n bake on Jun 26, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
The Wayne TD
Some will look at the blown coverage, but I will always remember with amazement how Peyton got the ball to Reggie with Tank Johnson and a couple assault rifles draped around his waist. That was a great play.
by coltsfanawalt on Jun 27, 2009 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions
It's the one future family vacation all six of us agree on
When Brady gets inducted to the Hall of Fame, we’re making the trip to Canton. Having Manning there too would only make it more memorable (imagine the brawls in the hotels and parking lots!) Maybe Favre will be ready to join them by then too.
Keep the faith!
Favre
To me, his stock is falling by the second. Time to give it up old man. Your beard is gray, that’s the first clue….
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me."
Not so sure about that....
So far he has had less offensive talent around him and a smaller pile of stats due to his age, but I’d say Ben R is better than Brady. He’ll never pile up a mountain of stats because of his missed games and injuries will shorten his career. I’d be amazed if he can still stand and recite the alphabet after 10 years in the NFL. But can he win another SB in the next five? Sure. Especially with their D and potentially two top RBs.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
Not so much about Big Ben's piled
more about the rate he’s been piling at. His first two years were promising, but his efficiency has collapsed now that he’s asked to throw 30 times a game instead of 20. Completion% and Yards per completion both dropped off significantly knocking his ANY/A way down and his QB rating down too (minus the year it got distracted by the shiny TD total). FO’s stats aren’t big fans of the new Ben either.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm
Change these hundreds for me cashier, Cuz I ain't made it yet, but I'm better off than last year
And what it look like hun', I ain't never made it rain but it look like fun
-Drake, Still Drake
by shake n bake on Jun 24, 2009 4:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Ben R
Had a crappy OL last year (still managed to win the f’n SB, grumble grumble grumble….) Shore up the OL and add in a theoretically healthy 1st round RB in Mendenhall, and I suspect he’ll show a statistical uptick.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
I was ready to blame the OL too, but his sack rate was about the same when he was effiecent as it's been that last 3 years.
Change these hundreds for me cashier, Cuz I ain't made it yet, but I'm better off than last year
And what it look like hun', I ain't never made it rain but it look like fun
-Drake, Still Drake
by shake n bake on Jun 24, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
to me its not so much the brady vs. manning thing as the idiots of espn talking about it.
a couple of weeks ago on nfl today espn did a preview of the AFC south and two out of the three reasons why the colts wouldnt win the division was…its “time” for them to begin the great freefall and their special teams is awful. helllllllllllllllllo- the bedazzlers have our awful coach. not one analysts to me seemed to even recognize this has happened. they went on for 5 minutes on how that will bring us down. and the other 5 minutes were even more idiotic with that loser exchief coach and cris carter going off on our eventual freefall due to excessive winning so many years in a row coming this fall. I had to turn the garbage off before it was even half way over.
how these analysts can pretend they are the experts is beyond me.
after what peyton manning did last year with one leg, no line and no rb, first year without marvin…was the mvp among all of this, the argument ends here. peyton was a NO.1 pick for a reason and one of the very few to live up to it. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THEIR STORY. not brady vs. manning when brady didnt even play last year.
espn=the bedazzlers coach on everything is always fine and dandy daily
Its Really Quite Simple
Disclaimer: I’m a Patriots fan but I try to look at this objectively and have a high degree of respect for Manning.
Brady vs. Manning is really quite simple to me. The worth of a QB is measured by one thing and one thing only: does he win playoff games? I could give a s***t about regular season stats. Can my QB get the job done. Period.
Brady’s Playoff Record: 14-3 (.824); 4 Superbowls; 3 Superbowl Rings.
Manning’s Playoff Record: 7-8 (.467); 1 Superbowl; 1 Superbowl Ring.
Don’t get me wrong, I think Peyton is one of the best QB’s of all time. I like him as a player and as a person. I hope my kids grow up to be as nice and kind as Manning or Brady. But, I truely hope that they win like Brady. Like it or not, Manning has a tendency to choke in big time games. Put Manning on those Patriot teams with no name recievers before the arrival of Moss/Welker, and put Brady on those Colts teams with Harrison and Wayne. If that was the scenario, is there even a doubt as to who would win more Superbowls?
But all that is fantasy. The absolute FACT is that Brady has a much higher winning percentage in the playoffs and has more championships. He simply gets the job done better than Manning. As great as Manning is -and he is one of the greatest QBs to have ever played the game – until he wins more in the playoffs, he will always be second to Brady.
The worth of a QB is measured by one thing and one thing only: does he win playoff games?
That is a very good way of evaluating teams, but an awful way to evaluate one player among the 45 that contribute on gameday.
Change these hundreds for me cashier, Cuz I ain't made it yet, but I'm better off than last year
And what it look like hun', I ain't never made it rain but it look like fun
-Drake, Still Drake
by shake n bake on Jun 24, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
No doubt whatsoever.
The Manning-Led team would have won significantly more.
Why?
THE PATRIOTS WERE BETTER!
Manning didn’t choke against the Pats in 03-04. The Pats were the better team! They hosted the games! They were favored to win and they did.
You can’t have typed that shit seriously in the middle of a discussion that soundly defeats the idea that team wins are the best measure of an individual’s value, can you?
Good Point
And this brings up one of the issues we tend to forget too easily… one reason Pats fans HATE the Colts and Manning is that in 2003, when the Pats had the better team and were favored to win, and rightlfully won, in the week before the game the media chowderheads (the very ones we’re making fun of now, no doubt) spent an inordinate amount of time crowing about how Manning has finally gotten over the playoff hump, how his two “perfect” playoff games leading up to the AFCCG were just the prelude to his eventual domination of the Pats, and was he unstoppable, would he go on a 16-0 tear the next year, blah blah blah….
Pats fans were, justifiably outraged at the run-up, and sick of that crap and were happy to cram it down our throats afterwards. Not very charitable, but certainly human nature. No fault of Manning, a little blame borne by us Colts fans, and much like the current “debate” was spurred by media speculation, not any specific thing any actual player did or did not do.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
Manning-led Pats teams?
As I said on the other thread, I also think it’s very plausible that a Trent Green led team, as well as teams led by Rich Gannon, D Culpepper, Farve, McNabb, and Kurt Warner would have won those games.
Ergo, Brady did a good job, but a handful of top QBs could have. Therefore, it’s not quite so special as many make it out to be.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
Playoff Win%
You can’t argue with that, but saying that Brady would win a Super Bowl with some of those past Colts teams is a stretch to me because those teams had such average – below average defense and the play calling is completely different. The more appropriate argument, to me, would be: can you take Brady and Belicheck and move them to the Colts and take Manning and Dungy and move them to the Patriots and keep the rest of the players where they were and change the results?
Not sure, but what I am getting at is that Brady benefitted from Bells much more than Peyton benefitted from Dungy. Dungy is almost the anti-Peyton when it comes down to aggressiveness and play specific preparation.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me."
I say we Colts fans start judging players based on the enormity of the choke jobs they are affiliated with. The 2006 AFCCG and the 2007 Super Bowl would prove that Brady is arguably the worst QB of all time.
Genius, I know.
Yeah, so I sold out, do something about it! Like read my site Colts Chatter.
by KingRichard on Jun 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
+1
and rec’d
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Jun 24, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
and to that I would like to add:
On February 3, 2008, Tom Brady brought his team, with their perfect 18-0 record, to the Super bowl where he promptly choked and was beaten by a banged-up team of young players led by a guy who is not even the best quarterback in his immediate family.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Jun 24, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
and this....
“I want to be a good teammate and all, but we definitely had some protection problems.” — Peyton after choking away another game.
Not to mention his multiple playoff losses, SERIOUS choke jobs on Manning’s resume.
Is it that hard to unstand that "we" means "we" when Peyton is calling the plays/protections?
Change these hundreds for me cashier, Cuz I ain't made it yet, but I'm better off than last year
And what it look like hun', I ain't never made it rain but it look like fun
-Drake, Still Drake
by shake n bake on Jun 24, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem is once a player is assigned a certain reputation, it’s hard for him to shake that reputation. Right now Peyton has won a Super Bowl more recently than Brady, but which QB is considered the consummate winner? In the past three years he’s played, Brady has thrown two season ending picks, followed season ending series where he was sacked and threw three incompletions to turn it over on downs. Yet which QB is considered clutch?
Lets take a peek...
1/04/09: Colts final offensive play of the season is Manning getting sacked with 2.30 left in the 4th qtr against the Chargers. All they needed was a first down.
1/08/08: Last offensive play of the season against the Chargers (again) is a Cromartie fumble. Of course, Manning’s two picks earlier in the game didn’t help.
2/04/07 - Won the Super Bowl!
1/15/06: Lost to Pittsburgh 21-18. Are you considering it “clutch” if you only manage 3 points through 3 qtrs, and then score two touchdowns in the 4th, which isn’t enough to win?
Keep the faith!
Clutch... sadly
Yes, that is generally how clutch is defined and remembered—not the mediocrity that got a team in trouble, but the last-minute save at the end. See the career of Adam Vinatieri. IIRC, in those playoff and SB games he won with his foot at the end, he also missed an earlier FG that would have made the last-second save a non-event.
Yet he is considered to be super clutch, perhaps more so than Brady. (cue the hate mail from AV fans AND Brady fans….)
And to be fair to the “3 pts thru 3 quarters” comment, Manning marched Indy 94 yards in the second quarter to the 1 yard line—an absoutely masterful drive mixing runs and passes and taking the short to intermediate stuff, efficient and little wasted energy or plays, and the RB ran it in only to have that play called back because of the LT’s premature movement. 3 plays later, they settled for three instead of seven. A 4-point swing. And what was the eventual margin of that game? Three points. I know, I know, along with you, I too blame Manning for the LT going offside.
Talk about clutch—great timing for illegal procedure—not only at the goal line, but at the goal line on the play when your RB runs it in, only to be called back.
And on the SD sack, the man came through unblocked. Untouched by the rookie TE who had been standing in front of him. How is that Manning’s fault again? (Actually, it was a pretty well disguised rush—the LB had been standing up, hiding behind the DE as the O got settled, and then stepped out into the open just at the snap. I felt the rookie TE had no real chance but plenty of folks blame him.) When your QB is among the most hit in the league (as measured about 75% of the way through the season by FO) but one of the least sacked, taking a sack is probably not his fault.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
excuses for everything
Brady just played badly in spite of his team and the ‘system’ supporting him… Manning obviously was the hero on the white horse (where on earth were his receivers anyway when he was throwing to them and not that guy in the Charger uniform???) while his team collapsed around him. Sad, sad story.
Keep the faith!
Are you arguing that the Patriots weren’t the better team?
Blaming Peyton for the Chargers losses when he was just about the only person on the team that played well is just as stupid as blaming Brady for the Super Bowl loss to the Giants.
Go away.
Cromartie fumble?
I’m pretty sure it was an incomplete pass to Dallas Clark on 4th down. He was so close too…….
Now a proud annoyance on Stampede Blue, 18to88, Indy Football Report, and Phil B's blog.
Man, I need a life...
Random facts of the week from the empty void that is my mind: I'm going to be going to Missouri (where there is no Internet or computers) for 2 weeks starting Monday, so I've got 3 of these for you.
1. You may have noticed before, but I love Scrubs. A lot. No seriously, I'm addicted to it, and here's why with this thrown in.
2. When you put thermite and blocks of ice together, you get a big boom. Nobody really knows why.
3. The Colts' (Indy and Baltimore's) all-time franchise record is 438-428-8. So, the Colts' just recently (2007 season) broke .500. That really tells you how bad the Colts were before Peyton.
Nice.
Concise and cutting…brilliant.
Now a proud annoyance on Stampede Blue, 18to88, Indy Football Report, and Phil B's blog.
Man, I need a life...
Random facts of the week from the empty void that is my mind: I'm going to be going to Missouri (where there is no Internet or computers) for 2 weeks starting Monday, so I've got 3 of these for you.
1. You may have noticed before, but I love Scrubs. A lot. No seriously, I'm addicted to it, and here's why with this thrown in.
2. When you put thermite and blocks of ice together, you get a big boom. Nobody really knows why.
3. The Colts' (Indy and Baltimore's) all-time franchise record is 438-428-8. So, the Colts' just recently (2007 season) broke .500. That really tells you how bad the Colts were before Peyton.
Neither is
“Cheat to win” a difficult concept to grasp :)
Manning vs Brady: After the 2006 AFCCG, it’s a no contest. Let Brady bring the Pats back from that kind of deficit in a crucial game, then we can acknowledge his greatness. Otherwise if the only argument is playoff and super bowls, remember that 2 of 3 SBs were won thanks to the leg of a guy called Adam.
Since we are judging also by the amount of success, can we also judge by the enormity of the failure: Manning has NEVER lost a Super Bowl :)
"Winning is not everything;the desire to win is" - Vince Lombardi
by rangerover76 on Jun 24, 2009 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, not buying it
New England cheated, but Brady’s got his rings. Maybe he wouldn’t have them if Belicheck was above board, maybe he would have – and maybe if my auntie had balls she’d be my uncle.
If you’re genuinely claiming the contribution of two kicks is greater than the contribution of the quarterback, then, erm…OK, crazy man?
Manning’s got a worse playoff record and 1/3rd of the rings. That doesn’t make him a worse player, but when you’re looking at the best players in a decade, you go with the ones with the silverware unless there’s a really, really good reason not to…and I don’t think Manning’s provided that. Yet.
Also, I don’t think Brady should be “punished” in our analysis because his team doesn’t put him in positions where he needs to comeback to win.
Having said all that, it’s more probable that ESPN picked Brady because they actually think he’s a better QB, and not because he’s had a better decade, because they’re idiots. But in this case they’re the monkies who’ve accidentally typed out a page of Shakespeare by hitting keys at random…
by eltharion_doa on Jun 25, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
We're back at this...
QB gets his team there, but QB doesn’t lose game once he’s there.
This whole conversation has become way too circular for me. I’m more of a linear thinker.
Let me ask you this: will I ever convince you Peyton is better?
No?
Ok, I can live with that. I suppose it should be good enough that I know. ;-) I’m exhausted. I just want some football to start. Right now all I have is rooting against the Red Sox.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Jun 25, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
#1 Iron-clad proof of the Yankees being evil
They make me root for the Red Sox.
it is damn tiring, isn't it???
How about we shelve this until…let’s say…June 2010 (with maybe a peek or two this November.) That work for you all?
Keep the faith!
to lose in the playoffs the QB has to at least get his team there in the first place
I think my favorite part about the 2007 SB is that Pats fans have adopted all the arguments they dismissed before to protect Brady from the choker concept that they helped build up.
Change these hundreds for me cashier, Cuz I ain't made it yet, but I'm better off than last year
And what it look like hun', I ain't never made it rain but it look like fun
-Drake, Still Drake
by shake n bake on Jun 25, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
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