The big Tony Ugoh v. Charlie Johnson debate
The one positive thing to come out of the benching of Tony Ugoh is that all the negative energy readers once directed at Joseph Addai is now firmly fixed on Ugoh, and by extension Charlie Johnson. You all know the story: Tony Ugoh has benched for Charlie Johnson one week into training camp after Johnson returned from the PUP after pectoral surgery. Many of us ranted and raved over the benching for the obvious reason that Johnson is not as good a player as Ugoh. Indeed, as pre-season has progressed, Ugoh has continued to look better, at least in my opinion.
Is he lighting the world on fire and making all of us go "OMG! He's a changed man!" No.
Is he playing better, overall, than Charlie Johnson? Yes.
It's for this reason that I've called Jim Caldwell's judgment into question. Please understand, I personally feel Caldwell has done a masterful job transitioning from QB Coach-Associate Head Coach to Head Coach, replacing the legend that is Tony Dungy. He is intelligent, thoughtful, and (most importantly) respected by the players. He is a little more vocal than Dungy, holds players and coaches more accountable than Dungy, and appears less stubborn than Dungy. Dungy was a unique coach with a brilliant method at focusing on details in order to win football games. He didn't out-scheme, out-wit, or out-plan his opponents. His teams played harder, tackled better, and executed better than his opponents. That's Dungy Ball. Caldwell seems to be using a similar method, and for that he deserves a ton of props. It's not easy taking over for a coaching god, and Caldwell is making it look so. That's impressive, indeed.
My questioning of Caldwell's decision stems from a personal belief that the guys who should be playing are better players than the guys sitting on the bench. If a 6th round pick (Antoine Bethea) practices and plays better than a 2nd round pick (Mike Doss), than the 6th rounder should play. And like the Bethea v. Doss camp battle of 2006, which helped mold both players into better safeties, my criticism of Caldwell stems from him naming the starter (Johnson) when Johnson clearly had not earned the job.
Before I elaborate, here are what John Oehser and 18to88 are saying about the Ugoh v. Johnson debate.
Here's one to BigBlueShoe's thoughts on the game on Stampede Blue. As usual, the "Shoe" does a great job of breaking down the game and raising some intriguing questions. I will say this: while I love BigBlueShoe -- and while mentioning him so high in this post shows how highly I consider his views --Stampede Blue has done a lot of questioning of Caldwell's handling of the Tony Ugoh-Charlie Johnson situation at left tackle. I find the handling interesting, too, but while BigBlueShoe is questioning Caldwell's competence and saying he looks inept and ridiculous, I'm not quite ready to paint it like that. Johnson didn't look great against Houston Texans DE Jason Babin Thursday, but Ugoh really didn't, either. Typically around the Colts a major decision such as changing left offensive tackles isn't going to be made whimsically by one person in the organization. There are long discussions, meetings and evaluations each offseason, and from what Caldwell has said about the timing of the decision to start Johnson -- it was made well before OTAs starting in May -- the Ugoh-Johnson decision was made sometime around those meetings. The long and short of this entry is pretty simple and that's that clearly the decision to start Johnson is a hot-button issue, but if Johnson is still starting in early September, it doesn't mean Caldwell's incompetent.
Charlie Johnson was an abject disaster. He gave up a big hit on Peyton on the first TD drive. Manning avoided a sack with his lightening release on a sweet pass to Addai. Then CJ followed it up on the next Colts possession by getting whipped again, leading to a sack fumble. In fairness, Pollack got beat on the play as well (not that this makes me feel any better).Unfortunately, Ugoh didn't play well either. He picked up a couple of penalties (although the second was not a good call), blew some run blocks, and looked generally lost. Johnson left the door wide open (as we knew he would), but Ugoh didn't walk through it. Instead, he laid down on the welcome mat and took a little nap.
I'll respond to John's solid point by saying that the decision to bench Ugoh certainly was not done on a whim. If I conveyed that thought that in my earlier writings, that's my bad. However, the decision on who starts and who sits rests solely with Caldwell. If it doesn't, then we have a BIG problem. Since I'm certain the team I love is the Indianapolis Colts, and not the disaster in Oakland known as the Raiders, I'll state confidently that all decisions on who starts and who sits reside with Caldwell.
This means he is directly and solely responsible for benching Ugoh for Johnson.
Caldwell is big on accountability. It is something he has stressed since he first took the podium last January as head coach. And since Caldwell wants to hold players and assistants accountable for their actions and decisions, Caldwell himself must be held to the same standard. Thus, if benching Ugoh results in worse play at the left tackle position, Caldwell is responsible, and least partially. That's all I'm saying.
Regarding 18to88's take, I'm not as harsh of Ugoh's play last night as they are, but I can see their point. Charlie Johnson was awful last night. When a scrub like Jason Babin makes you look like a chump, you stink as a starting LT. I shudder to think what Mario Williams will do to Charlie. And yes, I realize Charlie is returning from injury, as John Oehser correctly reminds us.
So what?
If you are healthy to start and play, my assumption is you should be able to handle the Jason Babins of this league. If you are too injured, or too rusty, to do that, then what the hell are you doing out there in the first place? If the injury excuse was never good enough for Ugoh, Charlie shouldn't get the pass either.
This brings me to my biggest beef in this whole, stupid mess: The way Caldwell has handled it. I always seem to come back to one key question whenever I read blogs or comments from readers about this debate: Why was Charlie Johnson named the starter?
Certainly, Charlie did not "earn" the job. He's been injured all off-season, recovering from surgery. Why didn't Caldwell state that there is an open competition for the job, and may the best man win? Let Charlie, Tony, Daniel Federkeil, and Tom Pestock all compete for the starting LT job. Then, at the end of (perhaps) the third pre-season game, you name your starter. This way, it looks as if the guy who won the job actually earned it.
That is not how the situation currently looks.
Even factoring in last night's game, which was not a "light's out performance" by Ugoh, he is still clearly outplaying Johnson. He's better in pass protection, run blocking, and has more physical overall ability. Ugoh's also looked better in practice, handling Dwight Freeney much better than he did in the past. By all measures that we evaluate "camp competition," or competition in general, Ugoh is beating Johnson. Last night's game continued to reinforce that.
So, why is Johnson still the "named" starter? It's an unanswered question.
If there is one constant in all this, it is there is tremendous uneasiness about the LT spot. The coaching staff are visibly frustrated by the lack of consistency at both tackle spots, and we fans are scared as all hell at the fact that in two pre-season games, Peyton Manning has been sacked four times in about a quarter and a half's worth of work.
Barf.
It is very unlikely a left tackle will fall from the sky (a.k.a., a team will cut someone to get down to 53), which means the Colts are stuck with Charlie and Tony. In my not-so-humble opinion, this whole thing could have been handled better. The perception among some fans is Charlie simply has not earned the starting LT spot, and if things were this dicey going into camp, why didn't the Colts try and make a trade? Or, draft another left tackle?
What also makes this Ugoh v. Johnson issue stand out is it is the only truly negative thing we've experienced this pre-season (knock on wood). Injuries have occurred, but are not devastating like previous years (more wood knocking). Last night, both the offense, defense, and special teams overall looked damn impressive. I mean, if you think the Colts have issues at this point, kindly take a step back and look at the team Indy just played, Philadelphia Eagles. They had only one starter on their o-line last night. Everyone else is hurt, including Jason Peter, the LT they trade for from the Buffalo Bills. Their #1 pick, Jeremy Maclin, played terrible. Their defense, currently, is a shell of its former self. Stewart Bradley is gone for the year. Brian Dawkins is with the Broncos. Trent Cole is hurt. Jim Johnson has passed, and a new coordinator (Sean McDermott) is soldiering on with this unit. For a truthful perspective on the Eagles, look no further than Bob_Q at Bleeding Green Nation:
In one of the most disappointing performances the Eagles' faithful have seen in a while, the Birds fell tonight to the Indianapolis Colts 23-15. While excuses can can be made that many of our starters were sitting out with nagging injuries, the fact remains that both our offense and defense failed to fire on all cylinders.
Like all things, I hold out hope that the LT situation will shake itself out. This is a very good Colts team that is highly motivated to kick the snot out of people. Like most of you, I love the subtle "tweaks" and changes I am seeing. I love watching Antonio Johnson and Ed Johnson stuffing the run on third and short. I love Dwight Freeney spinning like Fred Astaire on crack. I love Peyton Manning looking like he is ready to eat your young.

I mean seriously, folks. This is our man before a PRE-SEASON game. Imagine him before games that actually count. I swear, lasers or something shoot out of his eyes.
I hope this LT shakes out. But, if it doesn't, then Jim Caldwell bares much of the responsibility. This is especially true if Charlie Johnson continues to struggle while Tony Ugoh continues to look better by comparison.
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Brad please check your yahoo email, thanks.
by KingRichard on Aug 21, 2009 12:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice summary..
A couple things. I do think Caldwell will take the responsibiltiy. But it is only the preseason and the second game at that. He has not shirked anything yet. Also, just because it is public knowledge now…doesn’t mean that in Colts land these players (CJ and Ugoh) didn’t know who was starting when the decision was made. It is all conjecture, and the Colts are notoriously tight lipped about these things.
I will wait for September and see what happens.
by TRDean on Aug 21, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
For the record...
I also said in the same post that I think that starting Ugoh is the better play.
CJ is going to get Peyton killed if given the chance.
It’s freaking mess.
18to88.com
by deshawn zombie on Aug 21, 2009 12:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great site, but please stop cheerleading.
Okay, I’m sorry. I just had to sign up and comment after the last few posts.
Let me preface by saying I love this site and truly appreciate the work that goes into it. During a slow offseason, it has really kept me entertained and feeling in the loop. Great camp updates, etc. I’m not hating on this site.
But the pro-Ugoh cheerleading is ridiculous.
I know I don’t have any credibility around here – I hang out mostly at ColtFreaks – so there isn’t much weight to my opinions. But last night, Tony Ugoh was some kinda awful you rarely see in this league. And it’s becoming increasingly more difficult for even his most abject supporters to deny.
On literally his first snap of the game, Ugoh got beat on an INSIDE SWIM MOVE by his man. Off the snap. Literally within seconds. All Ugoh would have had to do was move to the right, but Ugoh barely even moved. Luckily it was one of Curtis Painter’s “good” drives and he got the ball off somehow. Paid the price for it, though, as he was drilled by the guy Ugoh just let stampede through the line. It was one of the more embarrassing attempts at a block I’d ever seen.
While that was the most egregious offense, there were several other missed blocks too, particularly on attempted run plays. And as is frustratingly usual, at least of late, for Ugoh – on one pass play, he didn’t force his man around and outside of the pocket nearly long and hard enough. As a result, the DE is able to go around Ugoh and quickly be within arm’s reach of the QB, so Painter has to step up and ends up making an errant throw while evading pressure. Sometimes, watching Ugoh play – especially in the midst of his recent downslide – I’m not sure that he knows where or what the pocket really is.
Ugoh’s main problem, as evidence last night, is that he just refuses to engage the defender. He sits back and lets the defender engage him. That’s a big no-no in most blocking schemes. It will, and does, lead to him getting quickly overpowered and losing position.
So, please, stop denying Ugoh’s poor efforts out there. For whatever reason, this guy has regressed and has looked pitiful doing so. If it’s because of what Caldwell/Irsay/Polian did, then the guy must be about as mentally-tough as a third-grader. Charlie Johnson is ideally only a stopgap at LT, but he doesn’t have problems with mental mistakes and he does engage his defender. Do I want CJ starting? Probably no. But right now, I definitely want him starting over Ugoh. I think it’s obvious to most folks that Ugoh right now, again for whatever reason, is not the answer at LT.
by GoBigBlue88 on Aug 21, 2009 12:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can only speak for myself
but I expect it’s the same deal for the other writers.
I’m pro-Ugoh because what I’ve seen from 2007 to last night makes me think he’s a better tackle than Charlie Johnson.
It's shocking what you can miss sometimes. The amazing color changing card trick.
by shake n bake on Aug 21, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess that's fair enough
But he has regressed since 2007. And I notice, mostly from BBS, that some folks around here are quick to point fingers at Caldwell for benching Ugoh. But this decision has been echoed by both Bill Polian and Jim Irsay. And there is precedence for this in the Dungy era! Even Tony Dungy benched this guy, last year, when the Colts weren’t exactly the epitome of good, healthy OL play. Dungy still had him riding the pine for a small stretch.
I think the writing’s on the wall: Ugoh is damaged goods. Maybe mentally, but damaged nonetheless. I think Dungy could see it. I think Caldwell and Polian see it. And after last night’s “performance”, the fans are beginning to see it as well. It’s too bad, really, because I thought his rookie season was impressive and last season wasn’t bad considering how collectively awful the OL was. But for whatever reason, he has regressed, and last night he looked completely lost out there. Much more so than CJ. Potential-wise, is he better than CJ? Lightyears. But based on his performance on the field as of late? Absolutely not.
by GoBigBlue88 on Aug 21, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s the problem, and I think a reader addressed this a little bit further down the line, but with CJ, you at least know he’s going to have trouble pass protecting. If you look at the Wayne TD you notice Donald Brown coming over to help CJ and that’s what gave peyton the extra time. And granted this removes a good receiver from the routes, but I’m pretty confident peyton will find an open guy. His run blocking, however, was pretty damn good IMO. Ugoh on the other hand played absolutely awful. In the 3rd quarter you can see him being consistently beat in both pass and run situations. The problem with Ugoh, per the coaching staff, is that he might have a great play, but he blows assignments all the time. So which would you rather have: a LT you know you’re going to have to protect with the assitance of a RB on pass situations, or a LT that will blow assignments and not give you any consistency? For me, I’d rather have a consistent LT that may not be the best, but at least you can plan for that.
by dfree93 on Aug 21, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's early..... Very very early actually
Just coz CJ is the started now doesn’t mean he will be the starter week 4 ( which is still early). If CJ gives up a few sacks in a game…. He will be benched…. In favor of Ugoh.
My take on this is that they know what they have in Ugoh-a moderate to decent LT. They are not thrilled about it and want to see if they give a very versatile player in CJ a chance to learn the position and play top D ends (thus hez the starter in pre-season). After next game is when they (Caldwell, Mudd, Moore) will decide on who is the better LT. I could also see us switching between the two based on game situations. If we want to pound the ball at the end of a game or in bad weather, CJ wud be in coz hez a better run blocker….. and if we are playing catching or playing against a weak seconday… We put Ugoh in.
DID SOMEONE SAY CHAMPIONSHIP
by BROWNdude on Aug 21, 2009 12:47 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
I guess when your biggest problem
Is a couple of pretty mediocre/crap LTs, you must be doing OK as a team.
The odds of a franchise LT falling to (hopefully) the late 20s or further in next year’s draft seem fairly slim, though.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 21, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
LT is a skill position; as those go, I’d say it’s more important than RB or WR. Bad teams that draft a franchise LT immediately improve; teams that neglect the position stay shite.
by slash196 on Aug 21, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
But what I’m really saying is that at least we’re only crap at one position. Imagine if we had the same weakness at four or five other positions as well.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 21, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here
is the best statement of a great post. This, in my veiw is the absolute best way to deal with the issue. JMHO, via BBS.
“Let Charlie, Tony, Daniel Federkeil, and Tom Pestock all compete for the starting LT job. Then, at the end of (perhaps) the third pre-season game, you name your starter. This way, it looks as if the guy who won the job actually earned it.”
by tim55 on Aug 21, 2009 1:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it's me
But when I see the Peyton intimidation look, I crack up……Probably just some kind of disorder I have.
by tim55 on Aug 21, 2009 1:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I must have the same disorder.
It tickles me pink.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Aug 21, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The game is being re-aired on NFL Network right now, for those interested...
I’m recording it so I can watch with sober eyes.
I’m in the camp that agrees that Ugoh is not playing well, regardless of CJ’s turnstile impression last night.
But I’m also in the camp that it’s downright stupid for anyone here to question the coaching staff on this, given their experience working with and coaching both players. By openly disagreeing with the decision and calling it foolish, that’s pretty much calling Howard Mudd, Tom Moore, and Jim Caldwell idiots. And while yes, there’s no question that the ultimate responsibility is Caldwell’s and he’ll take the heat either way (especially since Coach Mudd is gone at the end of the year either way), I’m sorry, but implying that these coaches are idiots is idiotic. (Even though I do agree that declaring CJ the starter instead of an open competition is a tad odd.)
One line of thinking about CJ vs. Ugoh is that with CJ at least you know what you’re getting. You can plan for it and give him TE or RB help all the time. That’s probably good for Peyton’s confidence even if it limits his options. With Ugoh, he has the talent to be alone 9 plays out of 10, but you never know when that one play will be.
It’s still early, and we’ve seen lots of things improve in less than two weeks before. They fixed that run defense in late 06. This team has a great coaching staff, and I have confidence that Coach Mudd will live up to his task of unfucking the offensive line.
by willyduer on Aug 21, 2009 1:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Johnson's play:
Watching the Fox broadcast now. It sure is nice to watch the first string offense move the ball.
1st drive
Johnson looked technically proficient and did his job well except for one play: He got good and squared up but Babin beat him around the edge and put a hit on Manning after Peyton dropped that 3rd and 10 in to Addai in an impossibly tight spot (which is all the more impressive because apparently he had plenty of time to look right and know that Collie screwed up, which Fox’s analysts showed us).
He also let Peyton get touched on the TE screen-ish play to Dallas, but I’m not 100% sure how much contact the tackles are actually supposed to make on screens. You want them to come far up the field. He got a piece of the lineman while the blitzing LB went outside of him, but the pass was easily completed.
His run blocking looked fine.
2nd drive
Run, play action, Run (headed straight to the 2nd level, but took a second to find someone), pass all looked fine or better. The sack almost looked like he thought he’d have RB help, then realized too late that he didn’t. Just plain got beat. Pollak and Saturday also let a guy through, not that it should’ve mattered. I’m only watching Johnson but that’s the second time I’ve noticed Pollak getting beat, with the other being on a run.
3rd drive
One play. Got RB help but it wasn’t necessary. Looked like he made good initial contact to the inside but briefly released and could’ve gotten beaten outside for a coverage sack eventually without the help. Assuming there was coverage, of course. Which there wasn’t.
After I eat I’ll watch Ugoh. All in all, two bad plays for Johnson, the rest was more than adequate. Probably better than we give him credit for.
On an unrelated note, why was Graham out with the starting D? He’s awful.
by willyduer on Aug 21, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nick Graham with the starting D
Phil B:
Cornerback Marlin Jackson had some soreness in his knee after warm-ups, so the team decided to be cautious and hold him out. Caldwell said he anticipated Jackson would be back at practice when they resume.
http://blogs.indystar.com/philb/2009/08/nextday_thoughts.html
It's shocking what you can miss sometimes. The amazing color changing card trick.
by shake n bake on Aug 22, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugoh's play:
Not a good start. Fell down and got beat on the first play, run right. Beat inside on a rush on the 2nd play, complete by Painter anyway. False start on his third play.
Already this is worse than Johnson.
-Went down to try to trip the guy on the fourth play, kind of the same thing he got penalized for, kind of cheap, but it worked.
-Beaten around the edge on the fifth play but held him off with one of those uncalled holds as Painter stepped up.
-Had a piece of the rusher but not all of him, basically held him for Brown to clean his clock
-fine block out on the 2nd level on a failed run right
-15 yard Penalty for diving at the knees, looked almost like he false started too. Stupid, though I’m not totally sold that he was engaged by Thomas.
- excellent block on the pass to Hart, guy was going nowhere
- went straight to 2nd level to block while Babin went unblocked. Not sure whose responsibility that was.
“Having some issues on that left side of this line for the Colts” was Moose’s understatement before the punt.
Johnson’s sack was much more noticeable, but I don’t think there’s any way you can claim that Ugoh outplayed him, at least not against Babin.
by willyduer on Aug 21, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More Ugoh
- Did fine pass blocking, though the end didn’t really seem all that interested in moving upfield at all
- same on 2nd play, completely unchallenged
- threw Babin aside to then go to the 2nd level but Babin got up to stop Hart for a loss
Turns out it wasn’t Babin, it was 91, who made the tackle on the last play of the previous drive
- held the pass block for a good while, more than enough time for Peyton, but eventually got pushed back towards Painter. Not a bad thing though, Painter took a long time.
- fine pass block
- mauled the rusher on a run up the middle. Not that relevant, but he did eat the guy up.
- didn’t have to do much, Babin half assed it, ball was thrown over his head before he even got to Ugoh.
- Badly beaten inside by Babin, Painter got blasted head on. Bad.
- fine block to start, maybe released him a tad early to chase after Simpson, falls on the ball. Looked kind of bad chasing the guy but that’s more a function of being a big goofy lineman in a crowd than anything else.
Better on that drive, but he got beat just as bad on that one as Johnson did on the sack. Painter got hit damn hard.
- fine block on first down run
- fine pass block
- kind of beaten outside, but it was after someone else already had gotten to Painter completely unblocked on a blitz past the left guard. Painter sometimes moves when he doesn’t have to, but not in this case.
End first half. This is kind of boring. Someone else can pick it up from here. I’ll keep the recording in case anyone wants to discuss any specific plays.
by willyduer on Aug 21, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve just got the 2nd half on in the background now without paying attention, but I did just look up and watch Ugoh blow a run block leading to lost yardage in the third while still playing tackle. Beaten by the immortal Gaines.
It’s fair to say he did not play any better, and this LT thing is a problem.
by willyduer on Aug 21, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
… and he whiffed the block on 3rd and inches before the FG to make it 20-7. Ugh.
At this point I’m just piling on. Enough out of me.
by willyduer on Aug 21, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugoh Playing Better?
Really? He is? I don’t understand what anyone could be seeing that would lead that person to say that Ugoh is playing well. Not only is he not playing well, he’s not playing that well against second and third string DE’s.
This isn’t a defense of CJ, but just because CJ sucks doesn’t mean we should be praising Ugoh by default.
by MileHighHoosier on Aug 21, 2009 1:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ditto.
I’ve heard a lot made about CJ getting beat by Jason Babin and what that must say about CJ. What does Ugoh looking (arguably) worse against BABIN’s backup say about Ugoh? I’m no math major, but I do remember the transitive property. Which doesn’t quite work in this example, but you get the idea.
by GoBigBlue88 on Aug 21, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In Tony’s defense, Babin played the entire first half, and Ugoh saw him for just as many if not more snaps.
(Then again, Babin looked like he was starting to gas a bit by the end of the half, which should help Ugoh.)
by willyduer on Aug 21, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
gotcha.
But Ugoh had more problems with Babin than CJ did, then. Or at the very least, if BBS suggests that CJ struggled against a “Jason Babin of this league”…well, so did Tony Ugoh. I think to a much greater extent as well.
by GoBigBlue88 on Aug 21, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what i don't understand
.. there was all this praise for Ugoh in the off season, and yet his play in the preseason hasn’t been great by any means. You can argue whether he is better or worse than CJ, but neither is anywhere close to Tarik Glenn.
So why was there all this hype about Ugoh in the off season? I think this is what is leading to a lot of discontent here.. Given what we heard I think everyone has much higher expectations and it just isn’t working. The left side of our line is weak no matter who is there. Maybe we need to bring in a fullback to help with the blocking. Weren’t they using some of our smaller D-line guys for this is camp? When will we see this is a game or maybe that won’t happen until the regular season
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing...
by bluegirl on Aug 21, 2009 2:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's pretty simple
Camp isn’t a game.
But I’m also not a believer that guys just get worse for no reason. If Ugoh was any good his rookie year, there’s no reason he can’t be better this year.
by slash196 on Aug 21, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey BBS
I find it ironic that you start off by praising Dungy, and then call Caldwell’s judgment into question. They both did the same thing. This isn’t the first time that Ugoh was benched, Dungy did the EXACT same thing last year benching Ugoh (and you’re in denial if you think he didn’t). Dungy started this trend, and Caldwell must have the same feelings about it as well in order to take it this far.
I challenge you to do this: Let the players duke it out. Don’t look at the names/numbers on the jersey.. root for both of them. May the best man win and believe in the coaches’ decision. This is about putting the best team together and I don’t give a crap who the LT is, as long as he’s the best on the team and doing a good job.
by yellowsnow on Aug 21, 2009 3:21 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
As for the last statement I made
I think it’s still up in the air as to who the best is on the team, and whether they are doing a good job or not.
by yellowsnow on Aug 21, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ugoh
It’s time to either trade for a left tackle or draft a left tackle in the first round of next years draft.
Enough is enough. Peyton can’t rely on this disaster. For now Ugoh starts and a TE helps on that side until a proven left tackle is around.
Our offense will never be as explosive as it was in 2004 until we get a stud LT who can protect without help!
by BlueLagoon_18 on Aug 21, 2009 4:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WTF
More praise for Ugoh from this blog. I am starting to wonder if the writers here are related to him.
Listen everyone. CALM DOWN. We played two preseason games so far and we have seen improvement. This is a very good team.
For some reason everyone thinks we need a pro bowl LT to fall from the sky. It aint happening. Ask the Steelers last year. You just need a line to gel during the season and come together in time for the playoffs.
I do trust CJ if that is who the team prefers. The line likely will not gel for several weeks. There will be mistakes. But, one thing I do know is that the offense last night with CJ at LT did move the ball and score.
Ugoh was a flat our disaster when he came in the game. This is CJs first offseason working at LT. I am willing to see if he grows and gets better.
People do not push the panic button. The team can win the SB with either of these guys at LT. I repeat, they can win the SB with either of these guys at LT. Probably they are not a SB team at the moment, but if whoever plays LT develops during the course of the seaseason and the line improves as a whole they will be fine.
The idea is to get better. The team is hoping either CJ or Ugoh show a lot of improvement in these preseason games and grows. The next two games are crucial for both of them.
by HelloKitty on Aug 21, 2009 4:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OMG SOMEONE HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION THEY MUST BE LIKE HIS BUTTBUDDY OR SOMETHING
It's shocking what you can miss sometimes. The amazing color changing card trick.
by shake n bake on Aug 21, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fine
Have a different opinion. That is not my problem.
My problem is the praise for Ugoh when he deserves none of it.
Ugoh was horrible last night. Absolutely horrible. It is a fact.
And he is not playing better then CJ right now. Another fact.
by HelloKitty on Aug 21, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's your opinion
You’re not doing yourself any favours by being just as biased and unable to see the other side of the argument as you accuse BBS and shake of being.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 21, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty much fact
Watch the game again. Ugoh makes more mistakes.
Not that harping on the same thing in five separate posts isn’t tiresome as well, of course, but the kitty is not wrong. Just kind of repetitive.
by willyduer on Aug 21, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
*sigh*
As long as you keep pretending your opinion is a fact, you’re not going to get anywhere.
FACT: CJ started at LT against the Vikings.
OPINION: Chocolate brownies are nicer when made by your Mom
Learn the difference.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 21, 2009 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if you really want to impress me with a FACT
Go through the gametape play by play and let me know precisely the proportion of plays that were blown by each player. In fact, you could even do a categorical break down – what proportion of plays were played well, what proportion were adequate and what proportion were blown.
But even that wouldn’t be a qualitative statement of who had played better, because they’d be up against difference defenses and in different game situations.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 21, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you asking me to do what I already did? In this very thread?
Scroll up and read.
You’re talking down to the wrong person.
But as long as we’re going to have discussions of definitions, when someone says “pretty much,” that’s entirely different from making a declaration of fact. I’m not trying to state things with 100% certainty, though when someone else is being idiotic I’ll certainly be pushier than usual. In this case, going in I agreed that Ugoh was the better option. After watching every play each man made at LT, I changed my mind. Right now HelloKitty is absolutely right to disagree with the main post.
(Also, I make better brownies than my mom. It’s because I take them out a minute or two early. The added salmonella risk is outweighed by the extra gooey texture.)
by willyduer on Aug 21, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
You had a great breakdown.
The next two preseason games will be quite telling, especially the next one. I hope both CJ and Ugoh raise their game.
This is an interesting take on it too.
http://profootballweekly.com/2009/08/13/tougher-johnson-better-fit-for-colts-than-ugoh
by HelloKitty on Aug 21, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
You had a great breakdown.
The next two preseason games will be quite telling, especially the next one. I hope both CJ and Ugoh raise their game.
This is an interesting take on it too.
http://profootballweekly.com/2009/08/13/tougher-johnson-better-fit-for-colts-than-ugoh
by HelloKitty on Aug 21, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That take would be more interesting if he had written it after watching these two games instead of just basically making stuff up and saying things without really saying anything before the first game.
I hope they both improve too. I’m confident that they will. Plenty of time still. I’m really in the football mood now, I wish they could play another game on sunday.
by willyduer on Aug 21, 2009 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The best take on it so far.....
Has been from the man himself, Mudd.
A week or two ago there was a quote from him. Not sure where it is exactly where he said the line has to improve this season. He said the veterans on the line know what it takes to win a Championship and he mentioned Jeff, Lilja, Diem and CJ.
Obviously Ugoh was not here when we won it all but the quote was interesting to me.
I am probably reading too much into it of course. But, if the team at the moment feels CJ is the tougher LT mentally then I don’t see how Ugoh can win his job back. My big criticism of Ugoh is mental softness. I can’t prove it but he seems easily rattled and easily shattered in confidence.
by HelloKitty on Aug 21, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't see anything about Pro Football Weekly
without thinking of their scouting report on Shonn Greene and the thread on it over at the Iowa SB Nation site.
http://www.blackheartgoldpants.com/2009/3/4/780636/pro-football-weekly-on-sho
everything after this comment was amazing.
http://www.blackheartgoldpants.com/2009/3/4/780636/pro-football-weekly-on-sho#12749846
It's shocking what you can miss sometimes. The amazing color changing card trick.
by shake n bake on Aug 21, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the second time I've read that thread.
You posted it before. Absolutely hilarious. My wie was wondering why I’m laughing. PFW, you blew that one.
by coltsfanawalt on Aug 21, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
I’m asking you to present that information in a condensed, useable form.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 22, 2009 4:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually,
Ugoh started at LT against the Vikings. CJ started at LT against the Eagles.
Now a proud annoyance on Stampede Blue, 18to88, Indy Football Report, and Phil B's blog.
Man, I need a life...
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Whenever i think of Tom Brady, my thoughts immediately turn to this.
by Cassieper on Aug 22, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol.
Burn…
"Flying blind on a rocket cycle?" -Vultan, from the movie "Flash Gordon", for no particular reason...
by peytonsurdaddy on Aug 22, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not opinion
When its true.
Ugoh was awful last night. CJ was less awful but still awful.
Pretty much anyone who understands the game could see that last night both were lackluster but one sucked more.
by HelloKitty on Aug 21, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty much anyone with a brain
Can see that that’s an opinion. And it totally undermines you credibility and rationality when you continually fail to see that you’re actually showing worse bias than the writers here, who at least acknowledge your viewpoint – you seem to think anyone who disagrees with you is retarded.
That doesn’t exactly make you a sympathetic debater.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 22, 2009 4:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly the problem
The editors of this site have been posting an opinion as if it were fact:
“Is he playing better, overall, than Charlie Johnson? Yes.”
Then they use this opinion to reason about the ability of the coaches and what we as fans should think about their decision making ability.
The problem is of course, if you reason from an untrue assumption all of your other points become suspect. This is exactly what has happened as part of the Ugoh debate. I can’t accept any of the LT analysis on this site anymore, because it starts with a debatable (and in my opinion false) premise.
by kasey_junk on Aug 22, 2009 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
looking back
Some of you may recall this. I remember seeing an interview in the days after this past draft hearing Polian say they knew Donald Brown was going to be their choice around the the point of the 23rd,24th picks. Back then I thought that meant Peria Jerry coming off the board to the Falcons at 24 had settled their decision. Looking at the LT situation as is, maybe he in fact had his eye on drafting Michael Oher who went to the Ravens at 23. Or maybe I could be reading too much into it!
by GonzoBlue on Aug 22, 2009 1:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oher's kinda a similar guy to Ugoh though
really talented, the knock being frequent mental lapses.
It's shocking what you can miss sometimes. The amazing color changing card trick.
by shake n bake on Aug 22, 2009 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony ugoh sucks
but charlie sucks even worse what the fuk polian jon runyan is still a free agent bring him in only if its for one season
"You only get intercepted when you don't know what your doing, I knew what I was Doing".
Johnny Unitas
by 805 on Aug 22, 2009 1:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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