Sorgi or Painter? A Question That Has Been Puzzling Mankind For Ages
by KingRichard on Sep 3, 2009 12:36 PM EDT
in Colts Analysis
Email
Print
With each passing day we inch closer and closer to the 53 man roster cuts. The question that has been racing through every Colts fan's mind is whether or not Painter will make the roster. Historically, the Colts are not known for carrying three quarterbacks on the active roster. Technically speaking, Hunter Smith was the "3rd/emergency QB" and would be the starter if both Peyton and Sorgi went down. Although, as a poster here said (and whose name eludes me at the moment), if it ever came down to Hunter Smith playing QB you can pretty much kiss the season goodbye and start looking forward to the draft.
Now that Hunter Smith is gone, this puts Coach Caldwell in an interesting predicament concerning who will be our third QB. Will he use an extra roster spot for a third QB? Will he cut either Painter or Sorgi? Or will he risk placing Painter on the practice squad where another team could get their dirty little mitts on him?
Answering these questions is no easy task, and this is something Coach Caldwell will have to be very methodical about when coming to a conclusion. If I were in Coach Caldwell's shoes, I think there is only one option that has been quite clear ever since last preseason: Sorgi needs to go.
My beef with Sorgi stems not from his work ethic or willingness to be a good quarterback; he just lacks the tools necessary for the job. The purpose of a backup quarterback in my opinion, is a quarterback who can and will fill in for the starting quarterback if he is unable to play and gives the team a great chance to win. Not just a good chance, or a coin flip, a great chance to win and Sorgi can't deliver. He had all of training camp last season to work with the starters and play in the preseason games, and he was an utter disappointment. There wasn't a single Colts fan (unless you are a blind homer) who felt good going into the season with Sorgi as the starting quarterback if Peyton wasn't healthy, not a damn soul.
A good example of the type of backup quarterback I'm talking about is Kerry Collins.
Regardless of your opinion of Kerry Collins, he is a great backup. He took the place of a "superstar in the making" (insert evil cackle here) and helped his team achieve a 12-4 record and the #1 seed in the AFC playoffs. That's no small feat by any stretch of the imagination. This question is, do you truly believe Sorgi is capable of doing that?
Naturally there will be some resistance here and I get that. Colts fans will claim that Sorgi would still have Reggie, Gonzo, and Clark to throw the ball to and Addai and Brown to run the ball. My retort to that is: Peyton Manning makes them great, not the other way around. This isn't the Patriots we're talking about here where the supporting cast around Brady makes him who he is. This is the Indianapolis Colts, or should I say, the Indianapolis Peyton Mannings. The only way the Colts would succeed throughout a given season if Peyton were to go down is if they had a competent backup who has the tools and the leadership to take over the team and continue marching on into battle, like a Kerry Collins.
The bigger question is whether or not Painter possesses everything Sorgi doesn't. And I believe the answer is yes. The basis for my assumption is not founded upon any statistic or theory, it's just my perception, it's what I feel when I see the guy play. From what I've seen of Painter in the preseason he has the potential to be a pretty good quarterback. Sorgi on the other hand is topped out in his abilities; he has hit his ceiling.
No matter the decision that is made, they all come with their drawbacks. Ultimately Caldwell needs to do what's best for the team and even if I disagree with his choice I'll just have to trust his judgment and move forward. Painter may or may not develop into a great quarterback in a few years, right now that's hard to tell. I believe he gives the Colts a fighter's chance if Peyton were to go down, but I could be wrong. However, one thing that is certain is that he can't be any worse.
Lesser of two evils, right?
45 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
My gut
tells me that Painter has more potential. Sorgi’s been kind of marginal in past play. However, in all fairness to Sorgi, it’s difficult to really get any kind of a rhythm going when you’re a back-up and Peyton, forunately for us, stays so healthy. If Sorgi had the benefit of playing a whole season like Manning did his first year, Sorgi may have developed. My gut still tells me that Painter is probably a better choice.
Indianapolis Peyton Mannings...I like it.
I would be nervous getting rid of Sorgi for 2 reasons:
1) He KNOWS the offense. Granted he isn’t what I would call athletic (except for that 4.6 40) but this is a complex offense and he knows it. I wouldn’t want him going anywhere else for that reason alone (unless we could get the “blinky thing” from MIB)
2) Painter looks good. He’s got a good arm and he is definitely athletic – moreso than even Peyton (which isn’t difficult – lol). But does anyone know how he has grasped the offense? Probably ok so far because he hasn’t been exposed to much. But down the line? Its a big question mark for me.
I say if Peyton goes down the season is over anyway. I’m serious when I say that it wouldn’t matter who was behind him, I’d write the season off.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Sep 3, 2009 12:46 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You are so right.. !
The best solution would be to keep Painter, and then get Sorgi to retire. Sorgi could then be a consultant or something like that with the Colts. All he ever does anyway, is he talks to Manning after each series.
And if – knock on wood – Manning went down for the season, Sorgi could pull a Favre and come back for the remainder of the season..
Not very likely to happen though..
around half the starters in the league don't give you a great chance of winning
I think it’s a very unrealistic standard for a backup.
To me a capable backup is someone you can throw in, call from a somewhat limited playbook and tell him “Don’t F this up” and he generally won’t, letting the rest of the team carry the team.
I like Painter, but I don’t think he’s had enough time to be able to step in and play competently against the 1st string D in a real game. Sorgi will probably never play great in that situation, but we’ve seen passable play from him there.
It's not just your perceptions that can be wrong. Even your memory is often incomplete or possibly flat out wrong.
voted keep both if that wasn't obvious
It's not just your perceptions that can be wrong. Even your memory is often incomplete or possibly flat out wrong.
by shake n bake on Sep 3, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't buy the Sorgi argument...
that he should not be cut because he knows the offense. Plenty of offensive players have been released over the years who could take plenty of the offense with them. That does not really wash with me and I think it is overblown. Second…Painter definitely has more upside than Sorgi…he is younger and has played better this preseason than Sorgi did ever!
I voted to keep both this year…. but cut Sorgi loose after next season.
"If me and King Kong went into an alley, only one of us would come out. And it wouldn't be the monkey."
"I don't really trust a sane person."
"I never met a man I didn't want to fight." The one and only Lyle Alzado
Sorgi/Painter
Although, as a poster here said (and whose name eludes me at the moment), if it ever came down to Hunter Smith playing QB you can pretty much kiss the season goodbye and start looking forward to the draft.
-———————————————————————————————
That would apply to Sorgi too.
exactly...
I knew it would come down to this. Sorgi has done well for us in the backup role, even though his ass must hurt from all that pine by now.
I just don’t see the point in having a backup QB that couldn’t win us games if Manning went down. If Manning goes down, we’d HAVE to sign another QB anyways, so why not just cut Sorgi and try to turn Painter into that guy.
~SHaFF!~
The Little Sports Blog That Could:
http://www.thelittlesportsblog.blogspot.com/
Right
and I still maintain that if Manning went down and we were, say, 10-2 at the time, we would be better off finding a good FA quarterback with some kind of track record than giving the reigns to the Sorg.
"Put him on the board. Houshmazilli....got it. CHAMPIONSHIP!"
keep both for now, but . . . . .
I sense the coaching staff has more of a comfort level with Sorgi right now, but they love the athleticism and arm that Painter brings to the table long-term.
Painter needs a full season being a sponge around Manning and Sorgi and the coaching staff, then he makes Sorgi expendable.
So I guess that puts me on the same bus with Shake . . .keep both this year.
I might also say that I don’t think Peyton’s successor is currently on the roster, or maybe even born yet. Heh-heh.
Successor
I don’t think he is on the roster either. Probably just getting his feet wet in college right now.
Who could it be? It’s fun to think about it but I am no Miss Cleo so I can’t predict the future. Shrugs.
"Put him on the board. Houshmazilli....got it. CHAMPIONSHIP!"
back up QB
I think we need to keep Painter at Sorgi’s expense, nothing against Sorgi he can hold a clip board with the best of em’. But I think you can make really good comparisions here because all we’ve ever seen of Sorgi is pre-season and clean up duty when games have been blow outs. All we’ve seen of Painter is pre-season, Painter clearly has a better arm and given time with the playbook and #18 he’s got more potential. We NEED a good back up QB it’s long over due. I’d say keep both but the practice squad is risky and the roster spot to valuable to keep a third QB.
IN POLIAN I TRUST
Not happening
I guestimate less than a 1% chance that the Colts head into this season with only Painter as a backup. Sorgi at least knows the offense so you can call most any play. It would take Painter quite awhile (at least a full season) to get comfortable-let alone execute.
Put Painter on the practice squad. If somebody signs him, there are 20 other Curtis Painters to add to the PS. I watched at least 75% of his games at Purdue, and he has many faults. Some of that very well may have been coaching, which apparently the Colts staff is now in the process of correcting. But just because Painter has looked good in exhibition games against vanilla defenses, don’t expect him to play well in a real game. NFL defensive coordinators will eat him alive.
Sorgi at least has some stretches in his past where he has looked fine in the regular season. He’ll do for now.
Yeah I guess
If he knows the playbook great but it doesn’t matter if he can’t execute it. I question Sorig’s ability to do that, given time I think Painter could and would be a better option.
IN POLIAN I TRUST
I know it's a small sample, but compared to Painter's...
Sorgi’s player page at FO:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/16952/jim-sorgi
He’s been average, while throwing mostly to Aaron Moorehead.
Painter
has IMO been better than average against mostly the same level of competition with maybe a slightly better supporting cast. If I had to choose I’m still picking Painter.
IN POLIAN I TRUST
Not buying that one
I strongly disagree with you that Painter has seen anywhere near the level of competition that Sorgi has. The NFL exhibition season has seen many QBs look good (remember how Spurrier was going to revolutionize the NFL with his Florida offense looking so good in exhibition games?) only to be exposed in the regular season. I can see arguing for Painter or against Sorgi, but not because Painter has seen the same level of competition. No way.
I don’t know which path the Colts will take, but I stand by my earlier guess of which path they won’t take. (Enter the season with only Painter backing up Manning.)
Also, are the people arguing for Painter familiar with his work at Purdue? I’m just asking out of curiosity here. (And I mean first-hand viewing, not just looking at the statistics.)
sorgi has only played in the pre season and in garbage time in the regular season I think that’s close enough competition wise. If sorgi has seen better competition the sorgi led offense did not produce TDs. The team may keep Sorgi but I think it will only be because they feel they have to not because they want to.
IN POLIAN I TRUST
by colt44 on Sep 3, 2009 6:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I want to see Sorgi with the first team
More than just once or twice before I could ever make up my mind on that.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on Sep 3, 2009 1:56 PM EDT reply actions
+1
How many years has he been here and he has probably only played with the real first team only a couple of times. We really don’t even have a big enough sample size to make an educated guess of how Sorgi would respond if he was in that position (Manning went down).
So I use the eye test. Does it LOOK like Sorgi has what it takes. The answer for me is a big fat NO. He looks like a scared kitty on the sidelines and he could have the Colts playbook tatooed into his brain but his lack of physical ability doesn’t match it.
"Put him on the board. Houshmazilli....got it. CHAMPIONSHIP!"
Sooner or later
The Colts are going to have to address the issue of replacing Manning.
Sorgi is not the future for this team.
Painter may not be either but seems to have potential.
I agree that if Manning goes down, the season is bust anyway.
What difference does it make if they go 8-8 with Sorgi or 6-10 with Painter?
As a fan I don’t really care what the record is in a busted season.
I’d think the Colts need to establish a sound QB for the future now.
So why hang on to Sorgi?
Granted he knows the system, but if he can’t execute what difference does it make?
Isn’t there any free agent QB that could do just about as well as Sorgi or Painter at this point?
If Painter fails then so be it, but Sorgi isn’t the answer.
I think we'll have more answers to our questions after tonight.
This will be Sorgi’s chance. Then Painter will come out, then we can compare. The only bad thing about that is they won’t have the starters to throw to.
"You can't defend the perfect throw, what can I say?" Peyton quoting Marino
I hope so
Caldwell probably wants to see how Sorgi will perform. I hope he keeps the starting unit on the field for a drive or two to see how Sorgi responds to the pressure. Then, we will see Painter with his crew and make a better decision.
"Put him on the board. Houshmazilli....got it. CHAMPIONSHIP!"
If we can at least see them working with the same set of players
Then we can make a fair comparison. But if one is throwing to the second team and the other the third team then it complicates it quite a bit.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on Sep 3, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Painter
and I think he can develop into a good backup QB that would be good for this team in the long run. I am afraid, though, that if we cut Sorgi he would immediately be signed by another AFC, possibly AFC South team simply for his brain. They would suck his brain out like on those Alec Baldwin commercials and turn him to goo….stealing as much Colts knowledge as they possibly could to gain a competitive advantage. We would then be forced to let Tom Moore retire or start from scratch.
Of course, that theory is based on the belief that Sorgi does indeed know the playbook frontwards and backwards and I am not sold on that either. I’ve never seen him audible at the line of scrimmage or run a complex play.
All of that said, I think it is worth the risk to try to get Painter to the practice squad or to attempt to sign Sorgi as a QB coach or some kind of assistant to retain his Colts knowledge and still keep Painter as a backup option.
"Put him on the board. Houshmazilli....got it. CHAMPIONSHIP!"
Peyton is 15% of the Colts Salary Cap. When you invest that much in one player it’s impossible to have someone who’s a backup step up and fill his shoes. That’s just the way the Colts are designed. The Titans have been constructed differently. They invest more in The Defensive and Offensive Lines as well as RB’s. They’re QB position is not as vital to the teams success as Indy.
On Painter
My worry is that I’ve watched him for years now as a Purdue fan, and he just was not that accurate. Sure he was better when he had better receivers (Dorien Bryant and Dustin Keller, allowing Greg Orton to be the 3rd option), but it always seemed like he regularly missed his target.
I am by no means a statistician (and I’m writing this based on my memory of him, not stats that I have looked up), but my understanding is that predicting a college QB’s success in the pros can be determined by looking at his amount of starts and completion percentage. Painter has a lot of one of those, not so much of the other.
Painter had a 60% completion rate
Throughout his career at Purdue. Not to bad.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on Sep 3, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
In Purdue's offense
i think you need to be higher.
I really hope Painter does well. As a Purdue fan, I love seeing Boilers do well, and I like it even more when it happens in Indy (it pained me to see a local kid and Boiler like Roosevelt Colvin playing for the Bears and Pats). That being said, I don’t think Painter has it and I really hope I’m wrong about that.
You're thinking of the Lewin Projection System
it seems to have some solid predictive power, but they’ve only really looked at it for 1st round and to a lesser extent 2nd/3rd round QBs. It gets shakier when you move further out because you get small school guys (messes with # of starts) and gimmicky system guys (messes with comp%).
Painter doesn’t have either of those issues so I wouldn’t throw out the importance of comp% and starts, but I would remember that the system does rely somewhat on the abilities of pro scouts in it’s round limitations (and one of the big reasons they believe # of starts is predictive is because it gives scouts more time to find worrying or potentially fatal flaws in a QBs game, so a QB with a lot of tape out there that’s still considered 1st round quality has gotten the signoff from a lot fo scouts).
Painters comp %s
Freshman 52.4% (170 attempts)
Sophomore 59.4% (530 attempts)
Junior 62.6% (569 attempts)
Senior 59.9% (379 attempts)
Total 59.9% (1648 attempts)
Not too bad. Identical to Matt Ryans and higher than Staffords, but of course you have to account for the massive differences the scouts saw between the players.
It's not just your perceptions that can be wrong. Even your memory is often incomplete or possibly flat out wrong.
He also had quiet a few INTs
But he showed a hell of a lot of potential in college. Whenever he came in to the game this last year when Purdue played the Hawks I worried. He scary good in those two-minute drills down the field.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on Sep 3, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Painter
If we cut him, Jacksonville will sign him before the ink dries. Sorgi has not played 1 down yet. Coach won"t take a chance like that with the season ready to start next week.
Sorgi - Painter
Posted something like this before.
If Peyton plays the whole season, it really does not matter who the backup is.
If Peyton goes down, does it really matter whether we have Sorgi or Painter?
I do not think so; we will have a disappointing season either way.
So, which of the backup QB’s gives us the better chance for the post-Peyton future?
IMO that is Painter because Sorgi tries and does OK, but that is not good enough to win in the NFL, which is what we are used to and want to do!
So, cut Sorgi to save roster space for a player that might make a difference in a championship run, hope that Peyton stays healthy, and if he does not, then work for tomorrow.
painter is alrit but
we all gotta remmeber sorgi knows the playbook i would even say a little mor dan peyton comon sorgi doesnt just hold the clipboard in his head his has the plays
"You only get intercepted when you don't know what your doing, I knew what I was Doing".
Johnny Unitas
by 805 on Sep 3, 2009 6:55 PM EDT reply actions
the first time I saw painter…which was the second game of his playing career he looked light years ahead of sorgi, who has been playing for how long now?, on the way he just came out of the huddle, ran the team, all of it. he looks like he could lead a team even if in the long run he cant. sorgi…never has he looked like he could lead a team. NEVER
I get the feeling when sorgi is in the huddle the entire team is thinking….oh crap this isnt going to be good. watching painter that second game, his first pass, not even a comparison of talent
sorgi needs to go. Im not buying the …he hasnt had the opportunity. colts fans have seen enough to know he would most likely never even be a 3rd team qb on most teams.
A lot of people are looking at it in a way I think is flawed
only considering what would happen with a backup if Peyton was gone for the year. What if it’s a couple games, what if they are on the edge of a WC spot and Peyton will be back for the playoffs, what if it’s just a quarter or a few drives and he just has to hold a lead?
There are a lot of situations where a difference between a passable and a bad backup makes a serious difference, without that being the difference between 6-10 and 8-8.
It's not just your perceptions that can be wrong. Even your memory is often incomplete or possibly flat out wrong.
That's a good point Shake.
I think they’ll probably keep both. Peyton loves him some Sorgi so I don’t seeing Sorgi getting the ax. Perhaps next year after giving Painter some time to learn from the league’s best.
I kinda like the consultant idea for Sorgi, though. Or assistant. Can a QB have an assistant that isn’t on the roster? ‘Cause that’s pretty much all he’s been anyway….
Peyton: “Sorg, go grab me a soda”
Sorgi: “You got it”
Peyton: “Got that film I wanted to watch, Jimmy?”
Sorgi: “It’s ready to go.”
Peyton: “Did you get a new clipboard for the uncoming season? That’s a really nice one.”
Sorgi: “Yeah, I thought I’d splurge a little seeing that you were in training camp and all and there’s little to no chance I have to play this year.”
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Sep 3, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Anything I got to say
will just be blown back at me by calling me a homer, but my name says it all.
We're out there for 60 minutes. In that 60 minutes you can be gods or you can be smucks. And I want to be a god. How bout you?
by 7_Painter's_First_Fan on Sep 4, 2009 11:28 PM EDT reply actions
Uhh
The Titans were 13-3 in ’08, not 12-4
by Aditya T (smashville) on Sep 6, 2009 2:56 PM EDT reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
