Three Colts make 2009 All-Pro team, three more make 2009 All-Rookie team
by BigBlueShoe on Jan 15, 2010 10:12 AM EST
in Colts News
51 comments
It's no surprise that Peyton Manning and Dwight Freeney made their second consecutive All-Pro Team bid. In many ways, this honor exceeds the Pro Bowl. The third Colts to join Manning and Freeney is Dallas Clark. We applaud the voters for Associated Press for finally coming around to the truth we Colts fans have been trumpeting for years: Dallas Clark is the best tight end in football. Guys like Tony Gonzalez had inflated stats because they played on bad teams that featured ZERO options at wide receiver. Dallas Clark has played on teams featuring Marvin Harrison, Brandon Stokley, Reggie Wayne, Anthony Gonzalez, Marcus Pollard, Pierre Garcon, and others while still putting up impressive numbers.
Thanks for finally recognizing him.
For the Sporting News All-Rookie Team, it is gratifying to see three more Colts make the grade. The under-appreciated Austin Collie made the team ahead of Mike Wallace of the Steelers, much to the annoyance for Steelers fans. However, Collie is, quite simply, better than Wallace. Collie was tied for the rookie lead in catches (60) and lead all rookies with 7 receiving TDs.
So, again, Austin Collie is a better receiver than Mike Wallace, and that is why Collie is on the team.
Joining Collie on the all-rookie team are Pat McAfee and Jacob Lacey. While I completely understand why McAfee is there, Lacey is a bit of a head-scratcher. Oh sure, he's played very well this year, but I'd have thought Jerraud Powers deserved deserved it more than Lacey. But, to be honest, it's nice to see at least one of them there. Both have played very well.
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TG and Dallas Clark
(Disclaimer: I’m a Chiefs fan).
Using your points on TG being the only option then….was Tom Brady a better QB than Manning because he was throwing to guys like Andre Caldwell, David Givens and Troy Brown and not Harrison/Wayne during the mid 2000s?
that comparison is off
the Gonzalez point was about him being force feed targets because of the lack of other viable options. That doesn’t parallel crediting or discrediting QBs for the quality of their receivers.
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
by shake n bake on Jan 15, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
*force fed
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
by shake n bake on Jan 15, 2010 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
the comparison is off but i wouldn't say that TG isn't good he is one of the top TE to play the game
GO COLTS!!! 09 IS OURS!!!
previously known as (ANGELSFAITH)
by TheAngelsColts on Jan 15, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
Clark was the best TE in the league this year
Just because he was the best this year, does not mean you were right in the past when you said that. He had the best stats this year, but in years past he did not.
Clark has been one of the best TE's in the AFC
For several years now. The biggest difference in year’s past was that guys like Gates and Gonzalez were essentially the primary receiver in an offense attack that ran the ball well.
In fact, the AFC’s top TE’s have primarily come out of the AFC West for much of the last 15 years…with Gonzalez, Gates, and Shannon Sharpe.
Clark on the other hand, has been playing as both a TE and a WR in what has been one of the league’s top offensive units year in and year out. This year, both the Chargers and Chiefs are different teams and Clark was finally showcased in some big games this year.
Gates is a talent TE, but his height is what makes him more than his talent.
by DevilsReject on Jan 15, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Clark is the best TE in the AFC right now
Considering that he’s been doing a double job as 2 of our main WRs in the roster are a rookie and a second-year player. The Colts were along with Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne through the first years of Clark’s carrer. If you had those both in your team, why would you put so many effort to throw to your TE? Now he’s had a stand out season, and a well-deserved Pro Bowl and All-Pro indications
Quitters never win, but cheaters sometimes do
I understand what you're saying.
I’m just saying that BBS has been saying Clark is the best TE in the NFL for 3 seasons, which is incorrect. This year, I don’t think that is debatable. That doesn’t mean he’s been right the other 2 years, though. While I agree he has been in the upper echelon the last two seasons, I think it’s pure homerism to call him the best those two seasons.
Meh, it's all opinion anyway.
Clark is a stud, that’s all that matters. I’ll just have to agree to disagree with BBS on it.
Lacey > Powers
It’s because Powers doesn’t play like a rookie. That must disqualify him.
"It's the greatest job in the world until Peyton comes off the field and you think his thumb might be broken and there's three minutes left in the AFC Championship Game and you're down by three to New England and you haven't taken a snap all year. Yeah, it's a great job until that point." - Jim Sorgi
How do you figure Collie is better than Wallace?
Because he had more receptions? That just means he was thrown to more often.
I’d say they are pretty even:
MW: 39 recs, 756 yards, 6TDs, 47.3ypg, 19.4ypc, 3.4yac
AC: 60 recs, 676 yards, 7TDs, 42.3ypg, 11.3ypc, 4.3yac
Also, keep in mind that Wallace led the league with 19.4 yards per catch. They are both promising young WRs, but I don’t see how Collie is definitively better than Wallace.
Optimism. Positivity. Win.
So does Usain Bolt
But I’m still voting for Collie (if I had a vote).
"About a month ago I got a cactus. A week later, it died. I was really depressed because I was like 'Damn! I am less nurturing than a desert.' (Ladies, that's not true)"
Other stats
Collie: 67 % catch rate, 0 fumbles
Wallace: 54 % catch rate, 1 fumble
"It's the greatest job in the world until Peyton comes off the field and you think his thumb might be broken and there's three minutes left in the AFC Championship Game and you're down by three to New England and you haven't taken a snap all year. Yeah, it's a great job until that point." - Jim Sorgi
by gizzardfanny on Jan 15, 2010 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Catch Rate is irrelevant with the difference in the two ways they play. Collie is more of a slot receiver, right? He runs more short to intermediate routes? Wallace pretty much only gets looks at intermediate and deep routes. So his catch rates are based more on the QB than himself. Moreover, a lot of those non-catches were on balls Ben underthrew at the beginning of the year. Wallace was so fast it took Ben nearly half the year to sync with his speed.
Wallace has a similar skill set to DeSean Jackson, another small and fast, deep threat WR. He had a 56% catch rate. So Wallace’s rate is not that bad for the type of receiver he is.
Optimism. Positivity. Win.
DeSean Jackson?
Wallace is fast, he’s not Desean Jackson fast though. Jackson is a freak. I’d like to see him and CJ in a race.
20 miliseconds
Screw those statistics, Collie made it and Wallace didn’t. It’s Wallace’s paycheck that would get bigger if he made it, not yours my friend
Quitters never win, but cheaters sometimes do
But if Collie runs all these short inside slot routes and Wallace all these long sprint down the field routes
How come Collie has more YAC, in traffic, running laterally half the time, than the big sprinter streaking down the field? Does Ben underthrow him every time?
Look at their two signature TD catches—both spectacular plays. Collie caught the ball about the 15 YL (don’t ask me which opponent—about 5-6 weeks ago) and wove through tacklers, broke tackles, and dove for the TD with the ball in his outstretched hand. Fantastic effort.
Wallace’s was the game winner in week 16 or 17, toenails clinging to turf, the pass practically out of bounds, but he caught it, kept possession, and kept his feet in for the score. Phenomenal play.
Which required the better football player? Very close, but I say Collie’s. Wallace’s was more of a “no he’s out of bounds… wow! He was in?!?!” play whereas Collie’s was the kind of play you show a Martian when yo have to explain what football is. You have to be fast, level-headed, sure-handed, strong, tough, agile, fearless, and determined. With great vision. Wallace exhibited great hands and body control.
It’s just one play each, but Advantage: Collie.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
So wait
You are telling me Collie is better because his one catch was better than Wallace’s one catch? Anyway, are you talking about the one against the Titans? You cannot compare those two catches. Collie’s was a slot WR route, something Wallace does not often run. Also, Wallace’s was bigger because it was the last second and won us the game. It is not easy to get open for a TD when the defense knows you have to go for the endzone and nothing less. It was pretty much double coverage across the field except Wallace. Huge play for him to get open and keep his toes down.
I’d give the edge to Wallace. But, that is bias vs bias.
Optimism. Positivity. Win.
if you are discounting catch rate because of usage YPR has to go to
for the same reason.
I think FO has it right between them. Collie had more DYAR (total value), Wallace had higher DVOA (value per target).
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
by shake n bake on Jan 15, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Collie is great
Route-running is an area where Collie excels. It’s not easily quantifiable, but he’s got it : the ability to GET open in coverage. He’s a great young receiver in his own right. Besides, the guy with most yards and most touchdowns deserves it, don’t you think? It’s not the All-Rookie-40 Yard Dash Team.
by naptown_ninja on Jan 15, 2010 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
How can we have a discussion if you don't read anything I write?
Not one time, did I say Collie did not deserve the spot. I simply said Collie is not better than Wallace. Wallace is not better than Collie. At this point, after this season, neither is head and shoulders above the other one.
Wallace is a good route runner. Not great. However, the thing is you can teach route running, but you cannot teach speed.
Optimism. Positivity. Win.
Collie was a better rookie...
It’s hard to compare the two because they play different roles, but Collie came in and had and immediate impact in every game he played. He was extremely consistent and polished. Wallace certainly has a lot of talent, but most of his plays consisted of “go long, i’ll throw it to you.” He had a good season… for a rookie. Collie looked like a pro this year and that’s why he won the recognition.
by invisibulman on Jan 15, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I'd also look at first downs, first down rate, and other options on the team
No offense to Hines Ward and S Holmes, but they’re not Reggie and Dallas. Manning had a LOT of choices and connected with Collie 60 times. Of course Collie has more 1st downs (the rate is worth looking at as well) and 1st downs add considerable value. A guy with the exact same numbers but 10 fewer 1st downs contributes measurably less to his team…. With only 2/3 as many catches, it’s pretty certain Wallace has fewer 1st downs. Combine that with fewer TDs, and he produced less for his team.
He may well be better—I have no idea—but that is not what the award is for. These types of things generally reward production, consistency, winning. Highlight reel plays help…..
And hey, if Colts and Steelers fans have this argument for the next ten years, about which one of these two should have been on the Pro Bowl and which one an alternate (or, if they both make it), I think we’ll all be pretty happy.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
Notice I never argued against Collie getting the nodded
I argued against the notion that Collie is definitively better than Wallace.
Firstly, Ben has very good options. Ward, Holmes, and Heath. If you do not think they are good, that is your own fault and misconception.
Anyway, per thrown at Wallace had a 39.4% 1st down and Collie was 43.5%. Nod to Collie. But if you look at TDs per catch or TA, Wallace gets the nod.
And it is wrong to say that Wallace did not come in and make an immediate impact, because he did. We have three great options in Tone, Ward, Heath, and we only needed a third option for 3 to 5 looks per game and to be the deep threat that keeps the D honest. Limas Sweed has been a failure thus far and Wallace stepped up from week 1 with a HUGE 22 yard reception in OT against the Titans that got us the winning FG. You don’t see that all the time from a rookie.
I still stand by that Wallace and Collie are both great rookies and neither is definitively better than the other.
Optimism. Positivity. Win.
Shhhhhhhhh!!!!!
They’re on pins and needles with the playoff game coming up! Let them believe what they want, all that matters is that we know which receiver WE want! ;-)
Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Stampede Blue's Resident Steelers Fan
Oneil Cousins is the Steelers' best Offensive Lineman
Frank Walker is their best CB.
by LV Steelers Fan on Jan 15, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
Shhhh
the receiver YOU want will be sitting at home this weekend while Collie is still earning a pay check.
Bob Sanders does not play Hide-and-Seek, He plays HIDE and PRAY-HE-DOES-NOT FIND-YOU!
by coltsfan723 on Jan 15, 2010 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
Um, okay
I’m not sure how it is Wallace’s fault that the Steelers missed the playoffs. I’m thinking it was our defense and special teams.
Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Stampede Blue's Resident Steelers Fan
Oneil Cousins is the Steelers' best Offensive Lineman
Frank Walker is their best CB.
by LV Steelers Fan on Jan 16, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Actually if you think about the way these awards are voted for....
Lacey over Powers makes sense. A lot of voters look at stats. Lacey’s 78 tackles > than Powers’ 63. Lacey’s 3 int > than Powers’ 1 int. Lacey’s 13 passed defended > than Powers’ 10. Not saying it’s right but that is often how things like this get looked at. This doesn’t even include the fact that Lacey played in 16 games (9 as a starter) compared to Powers 12 games (all as a starter). Personally if you’ve watched both players you can tell Powers is a much more polished corner. So while it’s probably not an accurate measure of who the better player is the numbers help justify Lacey’s selection over Powers.
"Winning isn't everything, but it beats anything that comes in second."
--Paul "Bear" Bryant
"All winning teams are goal-oriented. Teams like these win consistently because everyone connected with them concentrates on specific objectives. They go about their business with blinders on; nothing will distract them from achieving their aims."
--Lou Holtz, former Notre Dame football coach
by cscott5527 on Jan 15, 2010 10:55 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
College Scheme
Auburn last year seemed to run a scheme that was more similar to Larry Coyer’s system. Lacey’s system at Oklahoma State was so goofy and complex that it didn’t give the OSU defenders to focus on technique. Just look at the difference between Perrish Cox this year and last with a new coordinator. I think Powers has more raw talent but Lacey has played exceptionally well for a rookie. They’re both going to be very good with more experience.
by Sanders_fan89 on Jan 15, 2010 11:23 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I was going to just point out,
before reading your comment, that Powers playing in only 12 games is probably what hurt him. Lacey played in more games and thus has more tackles, picks, and passes defensed. Like you said, if you’ve watched the Colts you know Powers is definitely a better corner but Lacey’s got the stats.
Lacey also had the return for TD
Although, that Lacey got picked on more might say something about Powers’ skills
by naptown_ninja on Jan 15, 2010 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
Oh God!
What will I do? Should I beg? I’m here for a reason, your boy has been causing trouble in my neck of the woods. I’m here on the hunt. If that gets me banned, I guess it’ll be indicative of the hypocrisy that governs this site. Sound good? I thought it would…
Vae Victis!
those things aren't the same
if you don’t like what kinnickcolt is being allowed to say on BCC then take it up with the mods there. They set the bar for what flies on that site. When it happens here it’s on BBS/My standards.
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
by shake n bake on Jan 18, 2010 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
Lacey?
I’m not as high on Lacey as a lot of other people seem to be. I don’t think he holds up against top WRs, at least not yet. In terms of the entire league, he is probably a slightly below average starter. Powers on the other hand was a lock down corner. Quite a bit better in coverage and a very sure tackler. If the AFC wasn’t so stacked with corners he might have warranted some pro-bowl votes. The voters who made this pick clearly just looked at the stats and did not actually watch the games. Powers is already an above average CB and could be among the top 10-15 at the position within the next couple of years.
I think Power is a better corner as well.
However, when I take into consideration that Lacey was an UDFA, it pushes him up quite bit.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Jan 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Lacey has shown some flashes
of something special, but Powers has been more consistent in his play and hasn’t made as many of the rookie mistakes Lacey has.
Peyton Manning makes it Wayne on them hoes!!!!
Great choices
Powers would have made it if he had played the last couple games. I agree, he is a better cover than Lacey. However, Lacey deserved to be on the all rookie team as well. They both had great seasons and I am looking forward to watching them in the playoffs and for many years to come.
Glad to see McAfee too
He’s helped the team in HUGE way. Hunter Smith was great punter for the Colts. I was skeptical that a rookie could replace him effectively.
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