In Response to the Age Old Debate: Peyton and Tom
by jkarwin54 on Dec 8, 2010 11:31 PM EST
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A friend of mine who is a Pats fan has been using this season's struggles to convince me that Peyton is not the QB that Tom is. In response, I decided to do a career comparison to show him that, while Tom is one of the greatest QB's of all time, the fact that his team has always been better is why he has won more Super Bowls, and that Peyton is, individually, the better QB. I thought you all might enjoy the comparison if only to help out in winning these debates, which I'm sure most Colts fans have found themselves in at one point or another.
The debate started because of this article by Michael Wilbon: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?page=wilbon/101208
On defense, Brady has consistently played in a system which is all about defense first. Lets look at the years they won the Super Bowl, and 19-1 (these are scoring defense stats which is way more important than yards)
2001
Pats defense rank: 6 Colts: 32
2003
Pats: 1 Colts: 20
2004
Pats: 2 Colts: 19
2007
Pats: 4 Colts: 1
The only year the colts had a good defense in these years, they got to the divisional playoff game and then gave up something like 200 yards to Darren Sproles on defense and lost. Peyton had a great game so their failure that year was not his fault.
When the Colts won their only Manning led Super Bowl, they had the worst rush defense in the league. Additionally, most every other year in the 2000's, the Pats D has been superior than the Colts... much superior. This year, the Pats D isn't great, but the Colts D is terrible again. Peyton wins despite his defense. Brady wins with help from the defense.
Now, lets look at passer rating:
Outside of Brady's monster year where Randy Moss and him set records, Tom has had 3 years with a passer rating over 90. This year will be his fourth, and it will be his second over 100 (the first was the Moss year). Peyton has had 9 years with a rating over 90, including 3 over 100, one at 99.9 and one at 99.
Now, Edgerrin James left the Colts in 2005. Since then, here are rushing comparisons of the two teams.
2006: Colts 18 4.0 ypc Pats 12 3.9 ypc
2007: Colts 18 3.8 ypc Pats 13 4.1 ypc
2008: Colts 31 3.4 ypc Pats 6 4.4 ypc
2009: Colts 32 3.5 ypc Pats 12 4.1 ypc
2010: Colts 32 3.5 ypc Pats 13 4.2 ypc
I mean... come on.
Now records. Since Brady has been the starter, here are the Pats records:
2001:11-5
2002:9-7
2003:14-2
2004:14-2
2005:10-6
2006:12-4
2007:16-0
2008:11-5 (w/ Matt Cassel)
2009:10-6
2010:10-2
In that same time, here are the Colts records:
2001:6-10
2002:10-6
2003:12-4
2004:12-4
2005:14-2
2006:12-4
2007:13-3
2008:12-4
2009:14-2
2010:6-6
Almost identical. Here's the difference: Peyton's done it with no defense and no rushing game. And Cassel did almost the same thing as Brady under Belicheck's system that Brady's been doing for years.
So, you say play offs matter more? Okay. Here you go.
Play-off record: Tom Brady: 14-4 Peyton Manning: 9-9
Okay, big difference there. But how about play off individual statistics?
Tom Brady: 85.5 with a 62 pct pass completion rating 28td's 18int's 4,100 yards
Peyton Manning: 87.6 with a 63 pct pass completion rating 28td's 19int's 5,100 yards
So... what? Their teams have had different results, but their stats are about equal....so.... who do you think is winning and losing these games?
There's a reason Peyton's won 4 mvps and Tom's won 1. It's surrounding talent. Why don't we look at starting offensive lines?
Colts starting offensive line: Ryan Diem, Mike Pollack, Jeff Saturday, Kyle Devan, Charlie Johnson
Combined Pro Bowls: 4 (all by Jeff Satuday)
Pats starting offensive line: Sebastian Vollmer, Quinn Ojinaka, Daniel Koppen, Logan Mankins, Matt Light
Combined Pro Bowls: 5 (by 3 players)(including 3 all pro selections)
The pats have 3 top notch lineman. The Colts have 1, and he's in the twilight of his career.
Receivers? Peyton definitely has had the advantage in that category, I'll give you that. Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne are HOFers. Dallas Clark is great. Stokley was very good. Brady has had Randy Moss, who is a HOFer, and then Deion Branch and Wes Welker who are good players but nothing more.
So let's review team stats:
Defensive advantage: Pats
Rushing advantage: Pats
Offensive line advantage: Pats
WR advantage: Colts
(I'm not even counting special teams here.... if I did, I guarantee the Pats win that too. The Colts have never had good special teams.)
And individual stats...
Career Stats Advantage: Peyton
MVPs: Peyton
Playoff Stats: Tie
And then playoff wins and Super Bowls
Playoffs: Pats
Super Bowls: Pats
Strange. It seems that the Pats have the advantage in every TEAM category, but Peyton is way ahead of Tom in individual stats. Must have something to do with the fact that football is a team game and it always will be.
Conclusion: Better team of the 2000s? Pats. Better QB? Peyton
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors.
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great analysis and this is why peyton is the better QB
Loss to Chargers in Playoffs of 07' was because Manning lacked Clutchness
It’s funny how the article says “peyton had a great game that year so their failure that year was not his fault.”
It was completely Manning’s fault that they lost to the Chargers in the 07’ playoffs. Manning threw 3 picks in that game. Plus, after Billy Volek drove for a score vs the Colts Defense, Manning got the ball back with 4:45 to go in the game, down 4 pts and with 3 timeouts. He actually had a 1st and goal and he turned the ball over on downs. That’s a Huge Choke. Then the Colts Defense stopped Volek in a 3 and out. Manning again the the ball back with about a minute and a half and again turned it over on downs. That game was lost because of a total lack of Clutchness on Manning’s part. He couldn’t finish that Immensely Clutch drive with 4:45 and 3 timeouts.
by Pick6Peyton on Dec 10, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Manning in the Reg Season, Brady in the Playoffs
Stats don’t tell the whole story. Manning is The Greatest Regular Season QB Ever. Nobody has ever been as good, or as Clutch as Manning in the Regular season. But Brady is way more Clutch in the Playoffs. If I were building a team, I would take Brady over Manning for 3 reasons;
1 Style: They will both get me to the playoffs, but Manning will do it with more individual records and better stats.
2. Offense Efficiency: Manning will run a Pass-Heavy Pass-First offense (which is entertaining). Brady will run a Balanced offense (which I prefer) that is more helpful in cold weather games, particularly on the road.
3. CLUTCHNESS: In the Playoffs, needing one score to win in the last minutes, Brady is way more likely to Finish that Clutch Drive in that Immense Pressure, and that’s a Huge difference.
These are the 3 factors that are most important to me in picking a QB. I don’t care who’s a better pure passer or more athletic. I care about the three things above.
by Pick6Peyton on Dec 10, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
my fault
i had the wrong year. i meant 2008 against the chargers where he threw for 310, a td and no picks.
FYI
In 08’ vs the Chargers, Manning lead a TD drive with 8:10 left in the 3rd Qtr, that put the Colts up by 3. He failed to score on the next 4 drives and the Chargers tied it with a FG and win it in OT.
What I’m saying is, that you really can’t absolve Manning from guilt on this game either. He’s Peyton Manning, and he’s supposed to be one of the Greatest Ever, and he is thought of as “The Greatest Ever” by Colts fans. Meaning that if you’re that Great, and you put your team up by 3 pts midway through the 3rd Qtr of a Playoff game, that’s not really enough. The Colts defense actually did a Great Job keeping the Chargers Scoreless until that tying FG in the last two minutes of the game. Manning put alot of pressure on his defense by not scoring on 4 possesions leading up the the end of regulation. If he converts for a TD on even one of those possesions, the game would never had come to a cointoss.
Believe me when I tell you, that as a Brady fan, I hold Brady accountable for his chokes in the Playoffs. I blame him for all 4 of the Pats playoff losses. Because in all of those games, he Brady either choked in the last minute like in the AFCC of 06’ vs the Colts, or he had what I call a “complete game choke” like he did vs the Ravens last seaon in the Playoffs. I just don’t like it when people make excuses for their QB’s like you did with Manning in your article (regardless of which Chargers game you were referring to). They are the leaders and they get most of the praise when they win so they have to take most of the bullets when they lose. Fair is Fair, because those bullets are Well deserved for both QB’s.
by Pick6Peyton on Dec 10, 2010 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
the flip side though
is that no one here is saying peyton wasn’t responsible for the losses to the pats in the playoffs. those were on him. it took peyton some time to learn how to win play off games, and he certainly had his failings. but im not one to put all the blame or all the glory on one player, brady or manning. my main point is this though; with the little help he’s had from the most important aspect of football, the defense, i think peyton’s carried more of a load than brady. I think he’s had less than brady. and i think for that, he’s the better qb.
This is bullshit...
Brady has only had to come from behind one-time in his career deep into the 4th quarter to win a playoff game…and that was due to a very debatable call vs. the Oakland Raiders in 01. He has pretty much always been tied and driven down the field to get his kicker into field goal range to seal the deal for him. The pressure of being tied in a game and being down in a game are 2 different things…if Brady doesn’t get into FG range, big deal, they punt and let a top ranked defense get the ball back for them.
"I’m very fast. I’m like Forest Gump except... I am not an idiot." - Michael Scott
Superbowl 38
In superbowl 38 vs the Panthers, the Pats were down 1 point with 6 Mins left in the game. Brady drove the team for a TD and a 2 point conversion so they took a 7 point lead. After the Pats great defense gave up a Quick TD in in about a Minute, Brady got the ball back with the game tied with 1:08 left. Then he drove them for the game winning FG. That’s Two Clutch Drives in the last 6 mins and he was down when he got the ball for the first drive. Manning got the ball with 5:35 in SB44 and couldn’t even finish one Drive.
Brady has had 7 game winning or game tying drives late in the 4th Qtr or Overtime of Playoff games. That’s alot of Clutch Drives for his first 8 Full seasons as a starter (He’s on his 9th season as a starter this year). And that’s not counting the SB42 TD drive late in the 4th because the defense didn’t hold the lead, they lost, so I don’t count that drive for Brady. Even though it was Immensely Clutch.
Now, you can tell me that those drives were not Clutch enough for you because they were tied when he engineered some of those Clutch Winning Drives. And that’s fair enough, if it’s not Clutch enough for you it’s cool. But just remember that Manning hasn’t finished 7 Cluch Winning Playoff drives, not even close, tied or not.
In 4 Superbowl games, in the 4th Qtr, Brady has led drives for 4 TD’s and 3 FG’s. That’s 7 seven 4th Qtr Scoring Drives in the 4 SB games he’s played (these are not the same 7 I mentioned above).
In 2 Superbowl games, Manning led Zero Drives for points in the 4th Qtr. The Colts scored a TD in the 4th on a Pick-6 by Grossman in SB41; Manning didn’t score in the 4th qtr of that game. He also didn’t score in the 4th Qtr of SB44 despite having a 1st and goal there at the end.
Manning did have that Huge Clutch drive against the Pats in the 06’ AFCC. And Brady has failed on one Clutch Drive in the Playoffs, the 06’ AFCC after Manning scored on his Clutch Drive. But Manning has failed on at least 4 Clutch Drives in the Playoffs (I will list them all if necessary).
My point is, that Brady finishes his Playoff Clutch Drives Consistently. Manning fails on his Clutch Playoff Drives Consistently. Nobody is a sure thing, not even Montana, But Brady is way more of a sure thing to finish those Playoff Clutch drives than Manning. And that, has nothing to do with what kind of Defense your team has because they sit on the sideline and watch like everbody else, they can’t drive it for you.
by Pick6Peyton on Dec 10, 2010 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
for what it's worth
go back and look at the possession on the one in sb44. they didn’t score for reasons beyond peyton.
If we look for excuses
We’re gonna find alot of them. Injuries, Drops, mistakes, are all part of the game, especially when the pressure is highest. That’s why finishing a last minute Drive in the Playoffs is considered such a Clutch thing to do. QB’s have to overcome those things.
It’s true that Peyton carries more of load than Brady, and more of a load than any QB has ever carried. That’s why he’s so great. But that’s Peyton’s style of Quarterbacking, that’s how he chooses to do it. But I don’t care how the QB of my favorite team does it, or what his style is. I care about results more than anything. Can you get to the playoffs? Can you win the Division? Can you win in the Playoffs? And most importantly, Can you win in the Superbowl?
Manning takes on the role of Coach, Offensive Coordinator, and QB. That’s his style, I get it, and it’s great. But I love that Brady let’s coaches coach and he just plays QB. Manning has a more Cerebral approach than Brady, But Brady is cerebral enough for me. Brady is more vocal a Motivator on the sideline, but Manning is vocal enough for me. Brady prefers an offensive scheme that involves tons of running and drafting run blocking O-line men, but Manning runs it enough for me. Manning gets Huge stats, but Brady gets enough stats for me.
The point is, they have their own style and Manning does way more than Brady, that’s fine. But In the end, I care about Rings. Did you overcome all the adversity that comes with having imperfect teammates and did you win in spite of it. And if the adversity was too much on one year, did you Compel your team to make the changes to give you a better chance in years to come. They both play for Great Organizations. I will never buy the excuse that Their GM’s didn’t give them enough. They both have so much Clout within the organization, that they can get what they want, whatever that is. Whether it’s better receivers, different O-line men, better RB’s, a bigger Defense, or a faster defense. Brady and Manning get what they ask for, and if they’re missing one dimension of their offense or defense. There can only be one reason, they didn’t ask for it because it doesn’t fit within their style of quarterbacking. That’s why Manning no longer has an Edgerrin James (a Great RB who demands tons of carries), and Brady no longer has a Randy Moss (Deep Threat Receiver to spread that offense). After a whole decade of playing, and 18 playoff games for both, I believe that Brady likes his big and physical defense, and Manning likes his smaller faster defense. Manning likes his Pass-Heavy offense with receivers that stretch the field, and Brady likes his dink and dunk offense with tons of running the ball and no deep threat. They have the weapons they have by choice. Let’s not blame the GM’s. The Colts give Manning weapons that are fit for his style and his dome because that’s what he wants. The Pats give Brady weapons are fit for his style and his cold weather stadium because that’s what he wants. But at the end of the day, Did you win the Superbowl with what you have?
But again...
Driving at the end of a game with a tie is nothing like driving when your team is down…He had the chance vs. the Giants to put a drive together..he had 30+ seconds and 3 timeouts and came up short. That is ample time for a QB to drive into field goal range…my point is, everyone labels Brady as clutch and Manning as a choker. The fact of the matter is, a QB can’t do it alone within 2 minutes..he needs guys to step up and make plays (See Caldwell when he dropped the ball when he was wide open in AFCCG)…The Superbowl vs. the Saints was a miscue on Reggie’s route, although no one will ever put fault on either of the guys…its just idiotic to say one is clutch and one isn’t because they are both great QBs.
"I’m very fast. I’m like Forest Gump except... I am not an idiot." - Michael Scott
I partly agree
SB42 was Brady’s fault. Even if that final TD drive the Pats scored was a Clutch Drive. You’re right, we’ve come to expect Brady to finish all off his Clutch Playoff drives because of the standard that’s been set by him. This is where I disagree with my fellow Brady fans. I blame SB42 mostly on Brady, because not only should he have finished that Final drive with 35 secs remaining, but he should’ve scored more in the first 3 Qtrs so that it wouldn’t come to that. I don’t care how much the Giants Defense pressured him, knocked him down and sacked him, I expect Brady to finish those Clutch Drives in the Playoffs. And he has, more often than not. I think there are last minute Chokes, like SB44. But there are also “whole game Chokes,” like SB42, and the Pats’ loss to the Ravens last playoffs. I put Most of the blame on Brady, he’s a Great QB and he needs to do better, I expect more from him. Where I disagree with you is in the fact that I blame the QB more than you do. I see your point, and it’s a valid one. But I believe that Drops are part of the game. Caldwell dropped that pass but that was only one of 3 downs. Brady had two more to make something happen. I also think that Injuries are part of the game. Great QB’s have to work around that. Nobody will remember how banged up Brady was in SB42 or in the Ravens game last season because it doesn’t matter. He played and he didn’t get it done. 20 yrs from now, in the context of judging the Greatness of a QB and how he measures up to other greats, nobody will remember how many injuries the Pats had going into the Ravens game, and they had alot (including Brady), because all that matters is whether or not Brady got it done. They are both Great QB’s, but it’s fun to debate who the better one is even if they are both still active. And in measuring them against one and other, it matters to me that Brady has finished Clutch Playoff drives more Consistently than Manning. How he did it, or who helped him by blocking of catching the ball is irrelevant in that specific part of the debate. And it’s only irrelevant because they’ve both had Great talent around them and pretty damn good O-lines, I don’t care how late they were drafted. So yeah, to me, Brady’s more Clutch. The why doesn’t matter just like it doesn’t matter why Montana was so Clutch in his day, Only that he was Clutch. Because no matter how Great a team they have, on a Clutch Drive, they still have to get it done without that Huge Mistake.
Driving with a tie
at the end of a Playoff game, with a tie, is a Clutch Drive nonetheless. If you can keep it from coming down to a cointoss, that’s really Clutch. Consider that fact that if Manning had scored on any of the 4 Possessions he had in the last quarter and a half in 08’ vs the Chargers, the game wouldn’t have been decided with Manning sitting on the sideline watching because they lost a cointoss. If Driving at the end of the game with a tie is not clutch enough for you, then driving at the end of the game with a 3 point lead must be even less clutch. Well, Manning couldn’t even do that. Those failed drives by Manning vs the Chargers are a great part of the reason why Brady is considered so much more Clutch than Manning.
Just like in the 2008 Game
Brady could have ended the 2006 Title Game if he got one first down. Instead he went 3 and out.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
I agree 100%
If Brady had converted on some of those early 2nd half drives in the 06’ AFCC, he would’ve put the game on ice for the Pats. But he Choked on those drives, he failed and also threw a game-sealing pick. I think that may be Brady’s biggest choke ever. The defense gave up alot of points in the 2nd half but only because Brady put too much pressure on them by not getting 1st downs.
See...
I hate the word “choke” because it simply puts all the fault on the QB…and I understand that it is the most scrutinized and celebrated position in the league, however, Brady and Manning cannot throw the ball to themselves. These guys consistently put their teams in position to win games and on a few occasion, they come up short on a drive and bank on some help…this doesn’t mean they choked…it basically means that the defense was better than them on that particular drive…there are just so many elements to consider when deciding clutch vs. choke….sometimes things are black and white, but in the NFL, there are so many pieces that need to click on every single play, that it becomes near impossible to lay blame on one particular person more often than not.
"I’m very fast. I’m like Forest Gump except... I am not an idiot." - Michael Scott
The word Choke
I hear alot of Manning fans tell me that they hate the word “choke.” Maybe if Manning hadn’t come up short so many times in the playoffs, they wouldn’t hate that word so much. I mean really, Manning is Super Clutch in the Reg season. He won 12 seven years in a row. Then they won 115 in a decade, most ever by a team. He got 4 MVP’s, but then, the playoffs come, and the same team that was good enough for 12 wins, 4 MVP’s and tons of comeback wins, is suddenly only good enough for 9-9 and 1 Ring in 12 years. Look at Manning’s 4th Qtr Drives in the reg season, and look at him in his comeback attempts in the playoffs and he’s not the same team. I’ve seen him comeback on the Chargers in the last minutes of the reg season, in 2008, but then he failed on some Clutch drives vs the Chargers in the playoffs. He beat the Steelers in the reg season one year, but he only managed 18 pts against them in the same season in the playoffs. In my opinion, he’s just not the same QB in the playoffs.
In response to the examples you gave about Regular Season vs Playoffs
Steelers: In the Regular Season the defense held the Steelers to 7 points, forced 2 turnovers, and allowed 10 first downs. In the playoffs, they allowed the Steelers to score 21, with 21 first downs, as well as allowing the Steelers a 10 minute advantage in time of possession. Peyton’s stats were pretty similar, despite the fact that the O-line fell apart in the playoff game.
Chargers: Again, his stats were relatively the same, but he had some serious deficiencies in the playoff game. One was the special team dominance of the San Diego Chargers. They had nearly triple the return yardage of the Colts, despite having only one more return. The Colts were pinned inside their 20 7 times, 5 being inside the 10. Peyton only had 2 drives that started outside of the 20 that didn’t end in scores. One was because of a dropped pass on 4th down by the worthless player known as Gijon Robinson. As for the “clutch drives,” the Colts had 3 drives in the fourth quarter (none in OT). The first drive was hampered by 2 holding calls, and a tripping call on the Offensive line, 30 yards worth of penalties. On the second drive, the Colts were pinned on their own 1 yard line, and were lucky to not get a safety as the o-line gave up a sack on 3rd down (2 yd line). On the final drive, the Colts had the ball on their own 19 with 31 seconds left, a score here would have been a miracle.
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 13, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, Excuse Fest!
That was funny. You just game me enough excuses to justify a whole quarter of football. And they were valid, I won’t pretend that they weren’t.
This is the same problem I have with my fellow Brady fans. They want to find excuses for every Brady Choke in the playoffs. So i’ll tell you what I tell them. Penalties, bad field position, drops, sacks, protection problems, are all part of the game. Great QB’s have to overcome those things. When they do, we call them Clutch, deservedly so. But when they don’t, in the playoffs, it’s a choke. That goes for any Great QB in the playoffs. They all choke once in a while, and that’s ok. Some choke more than others and that’s ok too. But believe me, we can find excuses for all the QB’s who have Choked in NFL History, and alot of those would be valid, but those failures are still Chokes. I’m not saying your excuses aren’t valid, they are. But they’re still excuses. And those games were still chokes by Manning. That doesn’t mean that the rest of the team is free of guilt, it just means the QB Choked, and there were many contributing factors. Some were out of his control, but that’s part of the game.
Do you hate the word “Choke” also?
What about the word “Clutch”? you hate that one too? I only ask because i’ve had many Manning fans tell me that they don’t like those words to the point that they refuse to use them in the context of the the Brady/Manning comparison. It’s kind of weird. I might start telling them that I hate the word “Stats” and the letters “MVP” LOL just kidding man
I don't hate either word.
I was just saying that in the examples you gave, there’s really no reason to say that Manning just transformed from regular season to playoffs. He actually performed similarly, but the circumstances changed.
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 13, 2010 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
He did? or his no-name WRs did?
He had some godawful drops by Jabbar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell that were on perfect throws.
It was no coincidence that the very next season Belichick went out and bought a trio of some of the better WRs on the market – Moss, Welker, Donte Stallworth. He also cut Reche Caldwell, who’d been the previous year’s #1 WR.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 13, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
It's part of the game
Drops, mistakes, and injuries are part of the game. Brady is my favorite QB, but he choked against the Colts in 06’. Yes, he had shitty receivers but he won 3 Rings with crappy receivers so he set the bar really high and then he disappointed.
I’m not gonna make excuses for Brady when he chokes, and call out Manning fans for making excuses for Manning. I don’t believe in making excuses. Brady has choked, Manning has choked way more times.
Manning has been clutch in the playoffs at times, but Brady has been Clutch way more times. That’s all i’m saying. That’s why I said that I would take Manning in the Reg Season, and Brady in the playoffs.
Eh, a drop on a perfect pass is a choke by the WR
I mean, it’s not like Brady could’ve done anything better. I’m specifically thinking of the Reche Caldwell drop. What could Brady have done? Chosen not to throw to his #1, go-to WR?
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 13, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
They scored a TD on the very next play.
There was the drop on the play when the Colts defense forgot about him, but by the time it got there, the Colts had reacted and moved over. That was not a definite TD.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Shrug
My point being that Reche Caldwell and co were nowhere near the quality of Harrison or Wayne or Clark. That play is just a nice indicator of it, because it was so blatantly the WR’s fault.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 15, 2010 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
And Reggie Wayne dropped a 3rd down pass in
overtime against Dallas this year.
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 15, 2010 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
Reggie Wayne didn't get cut afterwards and have no-one play him again, haha.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 15, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
Actually they settled for a FG
After the Caldwell drop, they kicked a FG. At that point, the score was 31-31, the FG put the Pats up 34-31. Then Manning completed that great comeback. FYI
That wasn't the TD drop. There is nothing to say that Caldwell would have even gotten a first down
by the time Brady noticed he was wide open, teh Colts defense had reacted.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
There are higher up (Richard Hill) over at Pats Pulpit
that even admit that in terms of pure QB ability and play, Manning is the better player. On almost every poll of “experts” wether it be NBC’s one before last years Colts-Pats game of the Hall of Fame QBs (13.5-2.5 for Manning), ESPN’s before this years Colts-Pats game (5-1 in favor of Manning) and NFL Networks’ top 100 players (Manning finished 8th, Brady finished 21st), Manning comes out on top.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Yep.
And I’m sure Brady and the Patriots will gladly concede the “Manning vs Brady” debate, if it means they keep winning the “Patriots vs Colts” debate.
Manning’s playing this year with a terrible O-Line, terrible RBs, and a pretty bad situation at receiver (Wayne is still out of his mind, but every other receiver is injured or sucks) and he’s playing mediocre football. He’s not in a rhythm with his receivers, apart from Wayne, and that’s why he’s playing so poorly. A lot of the TOs are missed communications. He just doesn’t have the trust with his offense.
NFL Network huh
NFL Network’s Top 100 had Manning 8th All Time and Brady was 21st.
As a Brady fan, i’m really happy with that. Manning is 8th after 12 full seasons as a starter, and
Brady is 21st after 8 full seasons as a starter.
They both have time to move up or down. I’m pretty sure that if this list had been compiled after Manning’s 8th season as a starter, he wouldn’t even sniff the 21st spot that Brady got after his 8 seasons as a starter. So I think those experts at NFL Network really got it right on this one. But NFL Network also got it right on another list. They aired a show called “NFL’s Top 10 Most Clutch QB’s Ever,” and Brady was named 3rd most Clutch QB Ever behind only Montana and Elway. Brady was also the Only Active QB to make the list. Manning didn’t even crack the Top Ten, because they explained during the show, that although Manning is really Clutch in the Reg Season, this list was about the Playoffs, where the Pressure is Highest.
So that tells me that expert opinion is right in line with what I think about these two Great QB’s. Manning, with his 12 seasons, has accomplished more than anyone in terms of individual stats and records, plus he’s got a Ring. And Brady, in his 8 full seasons as a starter, has already become the 3rd Most Clutch QB Ever in the Playoffs. Both lists got it right. So I’ll take Manning in the Reg Season and Brady in the Playoffs. But if I have to pick one, I’ll take Brady because they can both get me to the playoffs, but Brady is also most likely to finish those Enormously Clutch Playoff Drives.
I think it's a push.
Colts fans take Manning. Patriots fans and anyone with an ounce of sense ;) take Brady. Statistics wise, the two are basically equal, with a slight advantage to Manning. However, Manning had the stats-inflating advantage of playing in a dome, so call it even.
Wins-wise, Brady is miles ahead of Manning, but did have a better D (which wasn’t that much better outside of 03-04, and may even have been worse). Call that even.
Ask yourself this honestly: if you had the second pick in a NFL-wide redraft, would you be disappointed with having to select the other one?
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 9, 2010 9:51 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Actually, Manning has more total wins.
And just to clarify, the Defense was much better in other years besides 2003 as well.
Scoring Defense
2001 2004 2006
Pats #6 Pats #2 Pats #2
Colts #31 Colts #19 Colts #23
Overall, the Patriots Defense has been in the Top Ten for scoring defense 7 times in the last 10 years (5 in the top 5), never being worse than 18th. On the contrary, the Colts have been in the Top Ten 5 times (2 in the top 5), being worse than 18th 5 times. Another way to look at it is turnovers. Over the past ten years, the Patriots defense has 306 takeaways to the Colts 284 (with this seasons averages added in).
Of course, the one year where the Colts had a clear advantage was 2005, where the Colts defense was abnormally good, and the Patriots was abnormally bad. If you look at the stats outside of that year, the Patriots have an average of 17.3 points a game (defense) to the Colts 21.53. Also, a 32 turnovers per season to 28.1 tps advantage.
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 9, 2010 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Win Percentage. Manning has been in the league longer.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 9, 2010 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
And he has more total seasons?
Amazing, that.
The Colts D was fairly similar to the Pats D when it mattered – playoffs. Over the season they’re worse, but when it’s a game-by-game basis in the knockout stages, they’re only 2 points per game worse – less than a FG’s difference. That’s advantage Pats, but not by that much. And certainly not for a 14-2 versus 9-9 difference.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Isn't it 14-4
also, since 2005 (I know, arbitrary year) its 5-4 for Brady, 6-4 for Manning. (it was 9-0 vs 3-5 before that).
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Considering they were head to head for that entire time, the arbitrary year thing doesn't really cut it
You might as well say “in this given timeframe that supports my hypothesis, I win”. Shrug.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why would you pick 2005?
Get your facts right!
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 9, 2010 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
Hmm. Sarcasm fail.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 9, 2010 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
There's a difference between success and talent...
and that’s the thing Brady supporters ignore. I’m not saying Brady isn’t talented. I think he’s a great QB. I just think that when it comes to sheer QB talent, Manning wins hands down. Drew Bledsoe and Matt Cassell are all the proof you need that need to tell that NE has had a better supporting cast for years.
Matt Cassel is playing to a Pro Bowl level in Kansas City - he's a legit QB
He’s got 23 TDs and 4 interceptions and a QB rating of 98.4. That’s extraordinary.
More to the point, Cassel took over the 18-1 team (and would’ve been 19-0 but for a defensive, not offensive lapse) and turned it into an 11-win team. That’s 58% of the previous year, with the exact same supporting cast.
In other words, Brady is 142% the QB Matt Cassel is… and Cassel ought to make the Pro Bowl this year based on his stats alone.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
No offensive lapse?
The team that averaged 36.8 pts a game during the regular season only scored 14 in the Super Bowl… No offensive lapse there?
Peyton Manning= Better.
Good pass-rush by the Giants...
5 sacks, a bunch of QB hits. But that would run against your whole “but the Colts O-line is horrible and the Pats O-line great” theory…
Thanks for bringing it up :)
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The rest of the season, that didn't happen.
You can’t blame Peyton for all the playoff losses against the Patriots, where he got hit a ton, and then don’t blame Brady at all.
Either way, 14 pts is still an offensive lapse.
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 9, 2010 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
I could be wrong, but I don't remember Manning engineering an otherwise game-winning drive ending with a TD with 2 minutes of game to go
I do distinctly remember Manning throwing a pick-6 in an otherwise game-saving drive in the latest Super Bowl, though.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yep, and I won't even get into that play,
as the whole “Reggie stopped” thing has been beaten to death. But Peyton has plenty of game winning drives. 45 game winning drives, and 35 fourth quarter comebacks. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=MannPe00
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 9, 2010 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
So does Brady
But I know I’d rather have my QB with 2 Super Bowl-winning drives than one with 500 regular season drives. I doubt Brady or Manning would disagree with that rationale.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
OK
I don’t know how from these stats you get that Manning is the better QB. Brady consistently wins when it counts (playoffs,superbowls). With the Colts porous defense, Mannings stats are skewed because he was throwing from behind to catch up. So yes he would have more yds/tds than Brady. Even with being a Colts fan, I would have to give the Edge to Brady just for his performance in big games. Manning gets a lot of credit when things go well but for whatever reason we don’t want to put any of the blame on him when they don’t….poor OLine, no running game, poor defense, WR ran the wrong route, his arm got hit etc…….plenty of excuses for Manning playing poorly and making really BAD decisions. Somehow I get the feeling that Brady would embrace taking his team on his back and carrying them to the playoffs……….just my take on who’s better w/o my homer glasses on.
more attempts for peyton
and less picks. so….um…yeah.
peyton has a worse td/int ratio
Manning has a 1.98 td to int ratio whereas Brady has a 2.45 td/int ratio
Brady also has a system that allows him to dink and dunk...
As well as (at one point) the best long ball receiver ever. The Colts require Peyton to make risky throws at some points.
Peyton Manning= Better.
Dink-and-dunk doesn't get you TDs at Brady's rate.
And the fact is that the one time he had a WR of the Marvin Harrison/Reggie Wayne level of talent, Moss in 2007, Brady blew apart the league in a decidedly non-dink-and-dunk fashion.
Brady regulates his play to suit his surrounding cast; as this year is showing, Manning can’t do that anywhere near as well. Shouldn’t Brady get props for that alone? For all the crap Colts fans give Brady about being a ‘system QB’, he’s the complete opposite – he’s gone to Superbowls in dink-and-dunk screen- and slant-heavy passing scheme, and he’s gone to a Superbowl in a ridiculous air-it-out all out aerial attack that set every record imaginable. “System QB” my left eye.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
The only time they went to the Super Bowl with a long aerial attack
they lost. Only scoring 14 points. With Moss he could just throw it up and let Moss go and get it. Without Moss he can’t have the same attack.
Peyton Manning= Better.
Really?
Brady threw a TD to Moss with 2 minutes to go. That TD put the team up. If the D had held the Giants (and they had chances – a dropped interception by Asante Samuel, and helmet-catch) they would’ve won.
More to the point, they would’ve won because of a Brady-to-Moss TD.
Without Moss he can’t have the same attack.
Wrong again, big fella. The Pats are on course for the second-best scoring attack in Patriots history – they’re on track for 508 poins (they had ~590 in 2007). More to the point, Football Outsiders puts the 2010 Patriots attack as the second-best statistically, because of strength of schedule. They’re putting points up on great Ds – Ravens, Steelers, Jets (twice), Chargers.
All without Moss, unless you’re counting his 9 receptions (and 5 drops) in 4 games as something to be proud of. Fact is, the Pats have been better since Moss left, and it’s not even close.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
And Vince slipped over on 4th-and-1
He was sliding right into the hole Jacobs went through, and would have met him behind the LOS.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 9, 2010 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
No, I don't mean the attack isn't good,
it isn’t the same kind though. It’s back to the dink and dunk type, instead of the deep aerial attack it was.
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 9, 2010 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
To be honest, that's what I prefer
Moss in 2010 clearly isn’t Moss from 1998 or 2007. The kind of O the Pats are running now is about decent-but-not-great WRs and TEs, a solid-but-unspectacular O-line, and Brady.
Brady scans the field, calls people to move around to uncover matchup issues, and then spots the guy who’s covered by someone who shouldn’t be covering him. And repeat, and repeat, and repeat.
Funny how the stats of 2010 are actually approaching the 2007 stats – they’re on track for 508 points (2007 was a record-setting 590something). They’re also the second-most efficient offence of all time – right after the 2007 Pats offence. It’s a strange thought, but the only two skill position guys from both years are Brady and Welker.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 10:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think it's very effective.
And I applaud Brady for it. He’s a great QB. I just think overall, Peyton’s better. :)
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 9, 2010 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
You're one of the rational ones, then
The number of times I’ve seen Colts fans call Brady a ‘system QB’… how? What system? Weiss was dink-and-dunk, McDaniels was air-it-out, O’Brien coached using both. That’s not a system, that’s like someone played musical chairs between a West Coast offence and Air Coryell.
If anything, Manning’s the system QB. I say that without any derogatory connotations – it’s literally a system built entirely around Manning’s skills. No O-line, but his fast release means he doesn’t need one. Absolutely full of great WRs, because Manning always gets the ball off, so you want a good player at the receiving end. Same routes, schemes and such every single year, because they work and you don’t want Manning to deviate from his system.
But if I dared say “system QB” about Manning, I’d probably be torn to shreds by the same people who would say Curtis Painter would never fit in Manning’s role because he’s not Manning (hint: that’s a system).
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 10:26 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You're right when you say the system is built around Manning.
It’s all about his timing with the receivers. I don’t think anyone in the league could do what he does. But Brady does great in the role he is in too. They’re both great.
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 9, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
I always thought of it as...
If you were starting a team from scratch, and wanted to build a system around a QB first and then put players around him, go with Manning.
If you had a team in place and you had to add a QB, I’d go with Brady – he’s more flexible and has had success in every kind of system, so he could adapt himself to fit.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting take...
I’m not sure if I agree with it… I’d take Manning. But we both have our biases. :)
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 9, 2010 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, I'm not sure Manning would know what to do with the Pats smurfs at the moment.
They make routes up on the spot and Brady reads the same thing and finds a way to get the ball there. In some ways it’s the antithesis of Manning’s route-reading system.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, but Peyton would like
that pass protection… I don’t know what would happen… but give Peyton a few weeks with Welker… hmm…
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 9, 2010 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
I always wanted to see what Brady would've done with Wayne, Clark and Harrison
Might’ve just been because Brady’s 2006 WRs were Reche “bug-eyes” Caldwell and Jabbar “signed in September” Gaffney, and his TE was Ben Watson…
Would you trust this man to catch passes from anyone?
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
haha he did have 61 catches for 760 yards that year
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 9, 2010 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
True...
but he dropped important ones, which is why he went from being the #1 WR to being unemployed. Same as Asante Samuel and Ellis Hobbs. If you choke in playoffs, Belichick doesn’t want to know you.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
Can't have your cake and eat it too
You can’t say that Brady has more SBs because he has had better teams and then go on to say Peyton is better because of individual stats, because a major factor to him having better stats is his vastly superior offenses. Brady has had 3 skill position players (Troy Brown, Wes Welker, and Randy Moss) go to a total of 4 pro-bowls while playing for the Pats. Manning has had 6 skill position players (Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Joseph Addai and Ken Dilger) go to 19 pro-bowls. This goes to show that Manning has been surrounded by offensive talent his whole career allowing for him to put up flashier numbers. Brady had 1 healthy season playing with Moss and he broke Mannings single season TD record, playing outside for a majority of the season as opposed to in a dome. If we take a quick look at passer ratings Manning has a career rating of 94.72 and Brady’s is 92.93 that’s a minimal difference of 1.79% and the fact that Manning plays most of his games in a dome as well as his whole division being in a warmer climate we can call that one a draw.
There is no doubt that the Pats have had better defenses in the regular season. However, if we take a look into the playoffs, in terms of point defense which you yourself have said is most important, the difference if very minimal. In Manning’s 18 playoff games the defense has allowed an average of 21 points per game and in Brady’s 18 playoff games his defense has allowed an average of 19 points per game. If we look at playoff losses Manning’s defenses have allowed an average of 25.4 points per game in his 9 losses and Brady’s have allowed 28 points per game in his 4 losses.
The thing I find hilarious is that all these years everyone raves about how Manning is “THE TEAM” he did it all by himself according to a lot of fans and mediots. Now that Manning doesn’t have Addai and Dallas Clark suddenly he can’t carry the team anymore? Suddenly it isn’t possible for him to do it all? That’s because the reason why he has been so good is due to the talent around him. He has never had to put an offense on his back and carry them because he has always had pro-bowlers. Try bringing your team to an AFC championship game with an average defense and Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney (who only became part of the team halfway through the season) as your starting wideouts. Brady has done more with less his entire career and we are seeing now what Manning would’ve been without his all star supporting cast.
In 2006 when Manning won his only superbowl you mention that he had a terrible defense, in the regular season that is. Once Bob Sanders came back for the playoffs your defense played very well. In the first game against the chiefs Manning threw 3 INTs and finished with a rating of 71.9. The defense was the main reason the Colts won this game. Indianapolis’s defense forced three turnovers, four sacks, and prevented Kansas City from gaining a single first down until late in the third quarter. It was the first time since the NFL merger that a team held their opponent without a first down in the first half of a playoff game. In the regular season the Colts D allowed an average of 170 rushing yards per game, The Chiefs gained an average of 133 yards rushing per game. In this game the Colts D held LJ to 32 yards and 2.5 yards per carry. The next game against the Ravens is more of the same. Manning had a terrible QB Rating of 39.6 completing only 15 passes for 170 yards and 2 INTs. Luckily the defense played great intercepting 2 balls and forcing 2 fumbles, holding Jamaal Lewis to 53 yards rushing and only allowing 240 yards of total offense. Manning played his best game in the conference championship vs the Pats who had an average defense. Manning led a great comeback but we can’t forget the dropped ball by Patriots terrible #1 receiver Reche Caldwell in the endzone that would’ve made this a different game.
On to the superbowl and one of the most undeserved MVP’s of all time. In the SB the Colts defense forced 5 turnovers including a pick six and the colts rushed for 191 yards! Not to mention that Addai was the leading receiver with 66 yards. The running backs accounted for 257 total yards. Name me a team that creates 5 turnovers and runs for close to 200 yards that lost a football game? Brady had to put together last minute game winning drives to earn his MVP’s. In Brady’s 4 SB appearances he has 7 td and only 1 INT Manning has 2 tds and 2 ints including a pick 6 that cost his team the game. Tom Brady’s average passer rating in the SB 94.85 Peyton Manning’s 85.15. If you had to pick a QB on Super bowl sunday I’m sure a large majority would pick Brady over Manning.
by LizardKing12 on Dec 9, 2010 12:53 PM EST reply actions 8 recs
marino never won a sb, only made it to one
would you pick brady over him? elway lost what… 4 before he won one? would you pick brady over him? bradshaw never lost. would you pick him over tom?
come on.
I would take Brady over all ofr them.
by Richard Hill on Dec 9, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
and there lies the problem
it comes down to a matter of opinion and bias. i personally would take elway over all of them, but to each his own.
Brady's the only QB with two walk-off Super Bowl-winning drives to his credit.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 10, 2010 1:00 AM EST up reply actions
Why wouldn't a Pats fan take Brady
He is the QB that played on 3 SB winning teams for the Pats why would we trade that for anyone else? He has one of the greatest single seasons a QB has ever had and led the highest scoring offense in NFL history. What reason do we have to pick any QB over Tom?
If I were a Colts fan I’d probably stick with Manning seeing how much he has done in Indy, however guys like Elway, Montana and Brady have won more championships and some might take them over Manning.
Wow... all I can say is wow.
Terrific job Mr. King12 – be aware though… facts tend to confuse some of those who argue the Manning/Brady debate.
Your post makes it apparent to all who care to acknowledge the facts – Brady’s performances in the biggest games of all, show his uncanny quarterbacking skills and his superior team leadership. Manning’s performances… not so much.
by profootballfanatic on Dec 14, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
That "average defense" in 2006 was second in the league in points allowed.
You can’t discredit Manning for winning games with bad stats, and then discredit Manning for losing games with good stats. That’s what Colts fans fight. Manning’s performance and the team winning or losing games are not the same thing. It hasn’t been for Brady either.
Brady has put up some bad games in winning playoff performances. In the 2003 Title Game, Brady’s defense gave him five turnovers. Brady had a QB rating of 76.6.
In the 2006 Divisional Game in San Diego, Brady won with a QB rating of 57.6. The next year, with a 17-0 team at the time, he won the AFC Title Game with a QB rating of 66.4. The tuck rule game, Brady “won” with a QB rating of 70.4. The 2003 Divisional Playoff game, Brady won with a QB rating of 73.3. Brady won all those games because his defense kept him in those games.
Brady’s QB rating in losses: 74.0, 79.5, 82.5, 49.1. The aggregate QB rating is 71.2
Manning’s QB rating in losses: 62.3, 82.0, 31.2, 35.5, 69.3, 90.9, 97.7, 90.4, 88.5 (that’s right. Manning’s QB rating in each of his last four playoff loses were all higher than Brady’s best QB rating in any one of his losses). THe aggregate QB rating is 72.8. Recently, Manning has been good in every single playoff loss by QB rating. That is why teams win games. Just like the Colts team won the 2006 divisional game in Baltimore with little help from Manning, they lost the games each of the last four losses with Manning playing well.
That is why “wins” and “super bowl rings” should not be measures of an individual player. Coaches and GMs, sure they should be measured by wins and super bowls. Players shouldn’t.
BTW, the drop in the End Zone by Reche Caldwell did NOTHING. Since the Pats scored a TD on the VERY NEXT PLAY.
Stpo using pro bowls in your argument. At least use all-pro votes. Pro BOwls are voted by fans, who mostly know nothing. All=Pros aren’t. Also, other than Marvin, none of those Colts have done anytrhing without Peyton. Reggie Wayne probably would be really good playing in, say, Dallas, but we don’t know. Also, Brady had 2 healthy seasons playing with Moss, and in the second he put up nice numbers, but Manning has had seven seasons better than Brady’s 2009 season.
Also, although it may fit when you quickly think about it, is there any proof that playing in a dome helps your QB rating long term. A lot of the leaders on the career QB rating never played in a dome. The active leader (Aaron Rodgers) plays in Green Bay. On the all-time list, the #’s 1, 2,3,6,8,10 all played their whole home careers outdoors.
Manning, btw, put the offense on his back in 2007, 2008 and 2009, when he lost key guys all of those years. In 2007 it was Marvin (back when the teams 3rd receiver was Aaron Morehead). In 2008, it was having a shell of Marvin and no running game. In 2009, it was losing Marvin, then losing Gonzalez, having his #2 receiver a 4th round rookie and his #3 receiver a 2nd year 7th round pick, and no running game. The team went 14-0. Manning has taken teams less skilled than the 2003-2004 Patriots far into the playoffs.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Manning has had seven seasons better than Brady’s 2009 season.
Brady’s 2009 3rd best target was a rookie who was a college QB who had never played WR before. It’s not like he was throwing to Harrison/Wayne/Clark. It was Moss/Welker/Julian Edelman. Bleh.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 14, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
Brady’s QB rating in losses: 74.0, 79.5, 82.5, 49.1. The aggregate QB rating is 71.2
Manning’s QB rating in losses: 62.3, 82.0, 31.2, 35.5, 69.3, 90.9, 97.7, 90.4, 88.5 (that’s right. Manning’s QB rating in each of his last four playoff loses were all higher than Brady’s best QB rating in any one of his losses).
Eh. Stats don’t tell the whole story, though. Just look at yesterday’s Texans game – Schaub’s stats would’ve been great, but he still blew a game-winning drive with a pick-6.
Personally, I’d rather have a QB who puts up mediocre stats but manages a game-winning drive than a guy who puts up shiny stats but throws the game away with a last-minute interception on a crucial drive. I’d take Brady’s tuck-rule game stats and his last drive over Manning’s 2009 Super Bowl stats, where he’d played fairly well but then blew it at the end.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 14, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You used the exact same stat that I did to discredit Manning
Can’t have it both ways. In one of the games you mentioned (2006 Divisional against Baltimore) Manning stats were awful. Manning still put together a 9 minute game clinching drive featuring three 3rd down conversions against the NFL’s top defense. Works both ways. I was simply using the same stat you did.
Also, in some of those seasons that Manning had better stats than Brady did last year, like in 2009, Manning was throwing to Clark, Wayne, a 4th round rookie and a 7th round second year player. He also had no running game and a bad oline.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
That's fine
I didn’t know about the Colts-Ravens game-clincher for the sole reason I didn’t watch that game. Credit for that one.
Clark, Wayne, 4th round rookie and 7th round sophomore player sounds fairly similar to Welker, Moss, a rookie 7th round ex-QB draftee playing WR for the first time ever, and a career special teamer in Sam Aiken. It was bad enough that the Pats felt justified in drafted a 2nd round TE, 3rd round WR, and 4th round WR/TE in 2010, just because of the sheer lack of targets in 2009.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 15, 2010 3:50 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not debating that Brady's cast wasn't all that great last year
although Moss and Welker were still a really good tandem. He put up fine stats. Manning put up better ones with a worse running game, worse o-line and basically equal talent as targets. As for as 2009 goes, it is a straight win for Manning, with similar casts.
Brady wins 2010. I have no problem admitting that. However, this underscores the problem with the Brady/Manning debate in the middle of their careers. If we had this argument a year ago, Manning is in the lead. I still think Manning is the better player, but with Brady’s 2010 season outshining Manning’s 2010 season, it is easier to make the case for Brady than it was 200 days ago.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
I didn't think Brady would do as well coming off the injury as he did
He definitely didn’t look like 2007 Brady in his throws. He looks like he’s back to 2007 velocity and accuracy now, though.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 15, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
“Manning led a great comeback but we can’t forget the dropped ball by Patriots terrible #1 receiver Reche Caldwell in the endzone that would’ve made this a different game.”
and also let’s not forget “Mr.Clutch”‘s Int to seal the deal…
bottom line is, down 7, 1m30s to go, I’ll pick Manning 10 out of 10 times, playoff, superbowl, divisional, regular season, anyday…
you got it right, in 2006 manning played poorly during the post season, but he played when it mattered, the Championship game, isn’t that the argument you’re using to give the edge to Brady? i’m smelling a contradiction here…
and yeah, he’s a hell of a QB, the difference is minimal beetween them but this SB argument is ridiculous, it would be the same to say that Rajon Rondo is better than John Stockton…
Rajan Rondo IS better than John Stockton
Keep the faith!
by Marima on Dec 9, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
with all the respect, Rondo needs to work on that free throw before he can even be compared lol
a great player though, i like him…
I'll grant you that, lol
Rondooooooo … it sounds waaaay cooler when the announcers say his name after he scores. : )
Keep the faith!
Actually when it matter the most is the SB
And Manning doesn’t quite measure up to what Brady has done. Manning does not have a game winning drive in the SB, and the SB he was in when he was trailing he threw a Pick six to all but seal the deal for NO. Brady has 2 game winning drives in a SB (more game winning drives than Manning has SB) and he drove the team down the field for a TD in 07 to put the Pats ahead but the defense couldn’t close. He has only ever thrown 1 int in the SB in 4 appearances as opposed to Mannings 2 in 2. So what exactly has Manning done in the SB that make you want him in the dying seconds of the big game?
by LizardKing12 on Dec 9, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
you mention the drop by caldwell
in the afc championship being the difference, well if reggie doesnt stop on that route last year, peyton doesn’t throw that pick.
It’s impossible to say one player was responsible for the game, good or bad. That goes for Peyton and Tom. But the fact is this; football is won by running the ball, protecting the passer and playing good defense. The colts don’t have a good defense, don’t run the ball well and don’t have a good offensive line. The pats are good at all those things.
And nobody’s saying Tom’s not great. I think he’s a top 5 qb of all time. But Peyton has worked with less all his career. Again, skill position players mean nothing if you don’t have time to throw to them. Peyton is a qb who gets rid of the ball so quickly, because if he didn’t, he’d be getting hit every play, like we’re seeing this year.
by jkarwin54 on Dec 9, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
just adding to the coment above…
i’ll have to disagree with you when you say that the defense didn’t close on 07, Brady was the one who couldn’t put up with what he was doing, i don’t know the official stats but i bet the patriots offense were averaging 20+ points per game… and the reason to that is that the giants managed to put pressure on Brady, if you were to blame someone it would be the o-line but that would also be unfair, why not admit that the Giants came with a better gameplan and the Patriots couldn’t handle it, instead of putting all the guilt on someone…
and just as a camparison, the colts never had an O-line as good as the patriots, we’ve had good O-lines though, but since Tarik Glenn left our O-lines have been poor…
Manning's O-linemen have more Pro Bowls than Brady's...
Tarik Glenn went to 4, Jeff Saturday to 3. You’re saying they’re not good?
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
maybe they're admitting that Pro Bowl selection is mostly a popularity contest.
Keep the faith!
by Marima on Dec 10, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
and then
what other lineman went to pro bowls or were all pros? any at all?
I've listed all of both Manning's and Brady's linemen who went
And Koppen, Light and Mankins all benefited from Brady’s 2007 season, where it seemed everyone on the Pats got a Pro Bowl nod. Did they deserve it? Eh. It wasn’t like they were dominant in that year’s Super Bowl…
Even if Glenn and Saturday benefited from Manning’s 2004 season, they’ve still been to more Pro Bowls than the Koppen/Light/Mankins combo. Go figure.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 12, 2010 3:08 AM EST up reply actions
3 pretty good linemen
is a heck of a lot better than 2 great ones.
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 12, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Peyton Manning rarely gets sacked
He has always had an above average offensive line. If you go watch the game highlights against the Cowboys he had time and a decent pocket to throw from and still threw interceptions. Edggerin James was a good RB and so is Joseph Addai, Manning has had running games and protection.
The Giants were the better team in that SB, they had the perfect game plan and they won the game. My example was to say that even though he was not playing his best game and the team was not at their best he still managed to put together the go ahead TD drive because it’s what he does. The defense didn’t close, Samuel had a pick go right through his hands but that’s another story.
As for Mannings pick six Porter read that play all the way, Manning was locked on to Wayne, he was the go to guy and that was their favorite play. Porter read him like a book
by LizardKing12 on Dec 9, 2010 1:36 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Peyton Manning rarely gets sacked because of his quick release.
He only has 13 sacks this year and his line is terrible. His line did decently on the Dallas game… but the rest have been awful.
Peyton Manning= Better.
and reggie didn't run through the route.
it goes both ways on that play.
on your second point, you think peyton has had bad games and not brought the team back? jesus, i can think of only a few games in his career where he had a bad game and still didn’t lead a comeback effort.
and again, manning doesn’t get sacked a lot because he is quick to let the ball go. This is evidenced by this year clearly. No protection, gets hit a lot, gets pressured a lot, but doesn’t take sacks. That’s a measure of a great qb.
and running game? edge was great. addai is a good player… but what’s it matter without a good oline? The colts have put patchwork olines together for years. tarik glenn and saturday have been the staples. glenns gone and saturdays almost there.
Not taking sacks is not the measure of a good QB
Taking sacks is often the smart play. Manning could do with a few more sacks this year as opposed to the bone headed throws he is forcing in order to avoid sacks. Quick release isn’t everything, WR still need to run routes and Manning has had enough time in the pocket in his career to allow his WR to complete their routes. He does have a quick release but that doesn’t do him any good without decent protection.
Manning is also fantastic at leading comebacks…in the regular season. He does it consistently in the regular season, but has not been quite as good in the post season
by LizardKing12 on Dec 9, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
that's why i said A measure, not THE measure
avoiding sacks is huge. games are won in large part because of third down efficiency, and avoiding sacks goes a long way to aiding that.
post season? okay.
2000- manning leads the colts into field goal territory in ot to win. vandy misses the kick, colts lose.
2003- Manning leads the Colts on an 81 yard drive to put the game away.
2005- Manning leads the Colts to 15 4th quarter points to bring the colts to 3 down. then, on the final drive, brings the Colts to fg range and Vandy misses the kick.
2007- Manning leads the Colts on a 4th quarter, 71 yard drive to put the game out of reach against the chiefs. Against the Ravens, Manning leads the team on a 7:16 drive to seal the game. Against the Pats, well, we all know.
2010- Against the Jets, Manning leads the Colts to 24 unanswered points against the jets great defense to win the game. And even against the Saints, after the pick, Manning brings us down to the 3, then has a pass tipped, a run for a loss and basically a drop by reggie. we score there and who knows.
this just proves that peyton leads comeback efforts in the post season. it’s not his fault they fail almost all the time.
There was also the two comeback drives in the 2007 playoff game against the Chargers
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
here is my two cents.
Brady Manning stats- manning has been in league longer, brady missed year to injury, brady didn’t start rookie year. With those extra stats, brady would be very close to mannning overall. Plus offensive philosophy and dome have effects on the stats.
Brady Manning supporting cast- Brady has had horrile wr’s until 2007, and after that they got worse again. No TE until this year (vrabel as the goal line exception). OLine not amazing but good, and has gotten better over years (very good line coach, decent talent). RB’s have sucked his entire career except for one year by Dillon. Manning has had in the skill positions great talent around him. Yes he makes them better, but not to the extent that brady did. On defense, brady has had good/very good defenses, but never one that was like a ravens defense. In playoffs were also not great (see panthers superbowl, Jake delhomme wrecks.) Colts defenses have been decent in some areas and great in others. always can get to the quarterback, but lack of size makes bad run defense. Overall, on offense there is no doubt that manning had a superior supporting cast, while brady has sometimes had a better defense.
Clutch- Brady has the super bowl clutchness, mannning has a ton a regular season clutch drives, but in the playoffs his numbers are limited. And i bring up again, who do you want to throw to with a minute left, reggie wayne and marvin harrison, or david patter and troy brown. Brady gets the edge.
Also on the hole reche caldwell drop vs. porter pick, caldwell gets sole blame for the drop. He dropped a perfect pass. Manning and wayne made different reads, and that is partially manning’s fault.
In response to the article, stats do not prove how good manning or brady are. They are separated by their abilities to lead their teams to success through thick and thin. They will always be 1a and 1b, but if (and it is a huge if) the pats win the SB this year, it will become 1 and 2. Why? Because all of your arguments will have been nullified. pats defense- sucks. Stats (worthless but proving a point) brady. MVP- brady. And in the end, there is a reason joe montana (and johnny u) is considered better than favre or marino. Super bowls are more valuable than stats. And in the super bowl, except for montana, no one is more clutch than tom brady.
Dick Butkus, Former Chicago Bears Linebacker
"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was important -- like a league game."
by Cameron O on Dec 9, 2010 1:53 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
its the same old argument
and it will never be true. Super Bowls are won by teams, just like regular season games are. Basing an argument on who has more rings is a reflection of the team, not the individual.
Exactly wins are a measure of good teams
As well as good QBs. Manning has been on teams that have won 12 or more games 7 years in a row. If you ask me that is the mark of a good team and a consistent franchise. You can use the whole Brady has had great teams argument as much as you want but the truth is Manning has been a part of great teams as well.
well than that makes everything irrelevant
Mannings stats- team, i mean his wide receivers have to run routes, his o-line has to protect him, rb’s need to run and catch and block. Defense needs to stop other o to get him the ball. To an extent, yes, everything is “a team effort.” The leader of these teams are their qb’s. They are the ones who were hired with a minute left on the clock to lead the offense to score the touchdown. There is a reason people associate W-L as a qb thing, not a team thing. Brady led his team to the super bowl and won it when they needed him to. Even against the giants, he did his job. 4:00 on the clock, down 4, he’ll put you in the lead. And the defense is what let him down.
another stat for you that is almost a pure qb stat (notice the use of almost) is the TD INT ratio. Does your qb score more than he gives it away. Tom brady is the all time leader, and it is not close.
Dick Butkus, Former Chicago Bears Linebacker
"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was important -- like a league game."
by Cameron O on Dec 9, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
again...
2000- manning leads the colts into field goal territory in ot to win. vandy misses the kick, colts lose.
2003- Manning leads the Colts on an 81 yard drive to put the game away.
2005- Manning leads the Colts to 15 4th quarter points to bring the colts to 3 down. then, on the final drive, brings the Colts to fg range and Vandy misses the kick.
2007- Manning leads the Colts on a 4th quarter, 71 yard drive to put the game out of reach against the chiefs. Against the Ravens, Manning leads the team on a 7:16 drive to seal the game. Against the Pats, well, we all know.
2010- Against the Jets, Manning leads the Colts to 24 unanswered points against the jets great defense to win the game. And even against the Saints, after the pick, Manning brings us down to the 3, then has a pass tipped, a run for a loss and basically a drop by reggie. we score there and who knows.
mannign has led his team when he needs him in the post season. the difference between him and brady is usually mannings supporting cast letting him down.
So Manning did that all by himself? Throwing to himself, and blocking for himself? Cool.
Funny how winning Super Bowls is a team achievement, but getting stats is an individual thing, when one favours Brady and one favours Manning…
What a coincidence.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Game winning drives are generally the Quarterback.
They can’t rely on running, and the defense has no impact on it. The quarterback has to make quick decisions and often call the plays.
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 9, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
Yep, and Brady has two almost-perfect Super Bowl-winning walk-off drives to his credit
Nobody else has that.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Which is why I"ll give Brady credit for those.
Great drives.
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 9, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
This debate could go on all day!
I really enjoy having this debate with you. It’s fun to have a friendly argument every now and again. However neither will ever convince the other that their QB is better haha! Colts fans will always take Mannings side and Pats fans will always take Brady’s. All in all there are still several seasons left before these QB will leave the league and who knows what can happen! One thing is for sure both fan bases have been blessed with excellent QBs and should be grateful to have witnessed two of the best of all time.
by LizardKing12 on Dec 9, 2010 3:14 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Brady did not have a great O-line or Running game
In the early 2000s how quickly people forget. If you wanna play the blame game and blame your o-line then I am more than entitled to blame the Pats o-line for losing in 07, Brady was under constant pressure and was knocked down several times not to mention sacked 5. THAT is a bad performance by an o-line, Peyton would not have played better under those circumstances in fact he probably would’ve thrown pics.
Your going to tell me that a team that wins a minimum of 12 games 7 years in a row has a bad o-line, no running game, no defense and bad coaching? You’re being ridiculous, Peyton has had his fair share of amazing teams, he’s had good coaches, he’s had the same offensive coordinator his whole career unlike brady, he’s had great protection and some fantastic RBs, WR and TEs and he has had good enough defenses to win games. Brady didnt exactly have the Ravens d of 2000 or the 85 bears when he won those super bowls. Sure they were top defenses but they weren’t the kind that won games single handed without the help of a QB.
I’m pretty sure AV got behind center in the dying minutes of those superbowls and made the plays to bring the team into field goal range right? Sure he made the kicks but I’m sure there are far more Kickers around that would’ve nailed those kicks than there are QBs that would’ve put together those drives throwing to david Patten and deion branch.
by LizardKing12 on Dec 9, 2010 4:42 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
MY DADDY CAN BEAT UP YOUR DADDY
Damn people you sound like a bunch of 11 year old kids.
Guess what they are both great QB’s and future hall of fame members.
by Ufanforreal on Dec 9, 2010 4:51 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
LOL!
I’m not going to disagree, it is a silly argument and somewhat childish, however I am just having a good time with this. Really it’s a futile debate and no better than something like my daddy can beat up your daddy but it is a debate that will never end!
by LizardKing12 on Dec 9, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why are we having this debate at all right now?:
The Colts have to worry about beating Tennessee and then Jacksonville. We can worry about Brady vs. Manning in 2018, when neither franchise has either player. To fill the post-Manning and post-Brady era, we’ll do the debate.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Really.
These are all subjective opinions anyway. We’ll never ever be able to put each quarterback in the other players shoes, surrounded by the other players supporting cast, etc…….to see how each would do. They’re both good. And, they’ve both led their teams to very good runs over the last ten years.
Debating once their career are over
is the most logical thing to do. The body of work is not complete and cannot fully be judged until then. Good luck with the Titans.
Coaches matter in this discussion and I don't think anyone has given his due to the...
guy that made Matt Cassell look just like Tom Brady for a year.
Josh McDaniels?
He changed the playbooks to fit Cassel’s skillset.
McDaniels has shown that offensively, he knows what he’s doing. Personnel-wise, he flat out stunk.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 9, 2010 10:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Matt Cassel looks like Tom Brady this year, too
QB 1 – 23 TDs, 4 Int, passer rating 98.4, 208 yards per game.
QB 2 – 27 TDs, 4 Int, passer rating 109.5, 252.4 yards per game.
Granted, there’s a difference, but Cassel’s numbers are still those of a fine QB.
McDaniels did a fine job of cutting down the playbook and making calls to suit Cassel’s strengths and minimise his weaknesses in 2008, but the 2010 version of Cassel looks like a legit QB.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
Quite the turnaround
from 16 and 16 with a passer rating of 69 last year.
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 9, 2010 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
They added a couple of parts
Ryan Lilja at Guard, Thomas Jones at RB (and promoted Jamaal Charles to starter), and perhaps most importantly, Charlie Weiss at OC. It looks like Weiss is treating Cassel like a mini-Brady and Cassel’s up to the job.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 9, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Weiss, McDaniels or O'Brien?
Brady looked like Brady under all three.
Cassel played under McDaniels in 2008 and Charlie Weiss in 2010. He still had the training wheels on in 2008 (McDaniels really managed him superbly in that time to allow him to do what he could do, and avoid what he couldn’t), and under Weiss he’s really blossomed into a top-notch QB.
However, that doesn’t change the fact that Brady played his second-best ever statistical season (2009) under a rookie offensive playcaller in O’Brien, and if he continues at this rate, 2010 will overtake 2009 to be Brady’s second-best season (to 2007), again under O’Brien. Is that O’Brien’s brilliance? No – hell, on PatsPulpit we had some fans calling for O’Brien’s head even more often than Colts fans on here want to fire Caldwell and/or Polian. The last two years were really on Brady, although O’Brien’s finding his feet now.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 10, 2010 12:33 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I think Brady really luvs Bill’s junk. Not 100% but pretty sure that Bill has a huge piece of junk!!!! Glad they get along so well!!!!!
dropped on the floor as a child a few times?
Non Sibi Sed Patriae &I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
Toy Story wears no. 39 100x better than D.D.R
Pat McAfee -Colts punter-"@StampedeBlue I hope your website gets exposed for a complete joke. There’s no reason for you to do that, and its completely ridiculous."
Deprived of oxygen at birth?
Maybe junk means ability to win…
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 10, 2010 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, right, that's probably exactly what he means
especially considering his screen name
Keep the faith!
The Realist has spoken
People in New England dont argue this point because they are not afraid what others think of their QB and his Legacy. Colts fans are so quick to bring up stats and defend Peyton and how good he is because deep down they know who the better qb is. Look up Bradys stats when he plays in domes and do some math. Youll find out that he would be a statistical equal to Peyton if he played half his career in a dome. Also, the division Peyton plays in has Houston (dome), Jacksonville (warm), there is no true cold weather teams they play year in and year out and weather affects stats. Brady has to go to NY and Buffalo plus 8 games in new england every year. Also, Peyton has played with 2 great recievers, harrison is a hall a famer and wayne is an all pro. Brady has done it by himself with just plain old fashion football players aka Troy Brown. When Brady was paired with a real receiver he put together the greatest season a QB has ever had, all while playing outdoors and going 16-0.
I would like to see manning play in a game like Brady played in Monday night 15 degreees swirling wind. He wouldn’t put up 45 points that for sure.
Brady will go down as the winningest QB of his generations and proved to the world that he has the ability to air it out in 2007. Peyton Manning will go down much like Dan Mario but with a superbowl. Each year after Manning retires he will see one of his records go down thus diminishing his legacy. Records get broken overtime but superbowl victories last forever.
Peyton Manning is a playoff loser. How many times have the colts been 1 and done in the playoffs? They lost to an 8-8 san diego team on the road, lost at home to them in 2007. The 6 seeded steelers beat them at home. If Manning was great he would have found ways to win those games. Great Qbs do not lose playoff home games year after year, especially after the bye. And how could i forget last years superbowl when manning threw the game away. The Pats might have lost to the giants but their beaten up QB led them down the field in crunch time and got them in the endzone. Brady didn’t throw a game ending INT like good old number 18 instead he led a championship winning drive that the defense couldn’t hang on to.
As for playoff stats Brady has accumulated his OUTDOORS in NEW ENGLAND. Manning has played a lot of his games in a comfy dome. The only time Brady plays a playoff game in a dome is when he makes it to the superbowl.
Manning is great there is no doubt but he is no Tom Brady. When the calander changes to January Manning is not even on the same planet as Brady.
by TheRealist12 on Dec 10, 2010 11:10 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Realist? This isn't very realistic.
“People in New England don’t argue this point because they are not afraid of what others think of their QB and his legacy”
Then why are you here arguing this point? Pats Pulpit had an article about this very subject just a few weeks ago. There are are several Pats fans on this thread arguing the point.
“Look up Bradys stats when he plays in domes and do some math. Youll find out that he would be a statistical equal to Peyton if he played half his career in a dome.”
You obviously didn’t do this. Because it’s wrong. Peyton Manning has played 102 games at home, gathering the following stats:
65.3 Completion %
263 ypg
202 TDS
89 Interceptions
If Brady had played 102 games indoors he would have the following stats (according to his current indoor stats)
65.5%
267 ypg
197 TDs
102 Int
While having the slight advantage in yards and %, Brady would have more picks and less touchdowns. Brady actually, statistically, has played better outdoors, with a better TD to Interception ratio. This is partially because he plays a ton of games at home. Both Manning and Brady are better at home, nearly every quarterback is.
“Peyton Manning is a playoff loser. How many times have the colts been 1 and done in the playoffs? They lost to an 8-8 san diego team on the road, lost at home to them in 2007. The 6 seeded steelers beat them at home. If Manning was great he would have found ways to win those games. Great Qbs do not lose playoff home games year after year”
Actually Peyton is 9-9 in the playoffs, which is technically an even .500. Also, San Diego nearly always starts slow and finishes on a roll. In 2007-2008,t hey had the #5 Offense in the league and the #5 defense (by points), and had the same record as the Colts. In that game, the defense let Billy effing Volek drive for the game winning drive. Peyton had a 97 QB rating and no rush support, as they ran for 2.4 yards a carry. In 2008-2009 , San Diego was 2nd on offense and 11th on defense. There, Darren Sproles had 328 yards on our defense and special teams, the Chargers punter had a record breaking night, and the Chargers won in an overtime in which the Colts never had the ball. Peyton threw for 310 yards, a TD and 0 picks.
As for the Super Bowl, Manning had better overall games in all three of the playoff losses than Brady did in the Giants game.
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 10, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Okay Colts fans. You like to criticise your O-line.
Imagine your all-pro, record-setting QB has just been sacked 5 times, and put on his arse countless more. He gets the ball back with 5 minutes to go, down by 3. You really think Manning has the balls to drive down the field in that situation? More than likely he puts one up for grabs to Wayne in triple coverage when Justin Tuck says boo coming off the ball. This is a guy that shuts his eyes under consistent pressure. He doesn’t even give his team a chance to win that Super Bowl.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 11, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
You mean like in the Pittsburgh game when, if not for Vanderf**cks choker kick
he would have led an 18-point 4th quarter comeback against unconsciable pass rush?
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
His D also gave him the chance to drive down the field.
If Manning is clutch, why didn’t he get the TD, instead of relying on his liquored-up kicker? That is your criticism of Brady’s SB drives.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 12, 2010 2:16 AM EST up reply actions
Has Brady ever...
led a win-from-behind playoff victory that’s culminated in a game winning touchdown, or has he just gotten it in range for his kicker to win the game for him? Honest question. I can’t recall a playoff drive where he went down all the way when the pats were down more than a field goal. I’m not trying to downplay his achievements, but a last minute fieldgoal is very different from a last minute touchdown.
Read my fanpost
He’s never led a TD drive to win when he needed a TD. He has led a TD drive to tie when he needed a TD in the San Diego game.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
He's been in the position once
but it was a pretty impossible position, at the end of the 2006 Title Game, he was down 4. Other than that, he has never been down 4-7 in the 4th quarter. He has been down 8, and had the int-fumble play against SD that ended in a TD.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Montana never needed a touchdown to win the SB.
In fact, Eli Manning is the only QB to lead a TD drive in the SB when only a TD could win or tie the game.
Montana also had the opportunity to score a TD. taking over with 3 minutes left down by three means get to FG range, and then just don’t turn the ball over. The earlier a team gets there, the closer they can get to the goal line.
Manning had his team in FG position in the Pats game this year. What did he do? He threw a pick going for an unnecessary TD. What did Brady do in the SB 36 and 38? Get in FG position for his proven clutch kicker (who could have tied the game for the Colts) to kick the winning FG.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 12, 2010 2:29 AM EST up reply actions
Manning was down, Brady was tied in SB 36 and 38
Manning also has come back from down 21, 18 and 17 against the Pats in his career.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Do you remember the '83 NFC Championship game?
Montana had the ball, driving for the win, and threw a pick. No-one remembers the failures, they only remember the successes. I’m sure (without looking it up) that Manning has had the ball in the 4th, down by a score, and didn’t get the job done. Brady? ‘06 AFCCG, but I can’t think of too many others were he was down by a score and failed to finish, but open to suggestions (SB 42? 30 seconds left and already put his team in front in the previous 2 minutes, and just underthrew Moss behind the safeties)
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 12, 2010 8:25 AM EST up reply actions
Manning has already had 3 this year - Eagles, Pats, (Cowboys count?)
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 12, 2010 8:27 AM EST up reply actions
I wasn't asking about the chokes.
I was trying to contrast the difference between game winning FGs (something Brady seems to have a penchant for getting) and TDs (something Manning’s done in the playoffs).
Again, Brady’s never been in the position where he’s had more than a minute for a final TD drive, so it’s partially a moot point. However, it’s interesting that a lot of people consider him more clutch for getting Vinataeri in position, when Manning lost a couple big playoff games because Vanderjact was bad. If the pats are down by two in the 06 AFCCG, do you think Brady throws a stupid pick to Marlin Jackson over the middle?
by WaynesWorld on Dec 12, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
No.
But if the Colts are down by 3, can you see Manning going for the win and blowing it?
The 2 big ones (SB 36 and 38) in Brady’s career only required a score to win. Why should he need to score a TD? Anything can happen in those extra 30 yards.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 12, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
In SB 36 and 38,
the Pats weren’t down by 3, so Brady didn’t need a TD to “win it” where as Peyton’s “chokes” didn’t come with a tie game. So there not really comparable in that sense.
Peyton Manning= Better.
by JesusNinja13 on Dec 12, 2010 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
Take this year. He had the same kicker as Brady did for the SBs
The Colts had a virtual lock on the tying FG. Good conditions, a proven clutch kicker, and your QB throws the game away when he should have just held on to it. Lots of time left as well, so why try and fit one in when you can take a 6 yard sack on 1st down and still keep the FG option open.
I’m saying, Brady would not have thrown that ball there, he would have taken the sack or deliberately skipped it to the receiver, and come back on the next play.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 13, 2010 8:28 AM EST up reply actions
That was poorly written.
There’s a time to try and make a play, and there is a time to just get rid of it.
Brady is the master of taking what the defense gives him. Take SB 36 – check-downs to the running back, and one big (23 yards) completion to Troy Brown. No need to go for the 60 yard bomb and try to win it straight away, a la Peyton.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 13, 2010 8:33 AM EST up reply actions
Not gonna lie...
I thought Peyton was stupid there. I was screaming at the TV at him. But it’s easy to armchair QB.
I’m saying, Brady would not have thrown that ball there, he would have taken the sack or deliberately skipped it to the receiver, and come back on the next play.
As I said before, Brady’s never been in that position, and that’s what I’m getting at. I’m trying to be fair with the AFCCG, but he DID make a stupid throw and turn the ball over to end that game, so yeah, he definitely has the capability to make a stupid throw to end a game.
Every QB does.
99 times in a row, they will hit that 15 yard out. But that one other time, the d-end gets a fingernail on the arm, the receiver slips slightly and the ball falls incomplete.
And if Favre and Manning get credit for leading an almost-comeback from a hole that they put their teams in, Brady must be credited for rarely (very, very rarely) putting his team in a hole and then having to climb out of it.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 13, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
Do you mean 2007 regular season?
6 picks and they almost win. 2007 Divisional? 2 picks, and they almost win.
Or the Patriots game this year. He doesn’t throw the first two picks, and the game doesn’t need his almost-comeback drive at the end. Plus examples where they do get up, following poor performances by Manning (2006 WC, 2006 Divisional are some examples)
Favre has too many examples to list.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 14, 2010 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
hey. no one said manning isnt clutch. but he sure as hell aint clutch in the playoffs.
by zgamer200 on Dec 14, 2010 9:41 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Well written
But seriously? Stokely was ‘very good’? For pete’s sake…Manning made him good…Just like Manning made Harrison and Wayne and Collie and Clark good
Go check up Stokely’s stats after he left the Colts – he never had a season anywhere close to the one he had with Manning in 2004
If Brady was such a great QB, he’d have turned Branch, Troy Brown into All Pro, Pro Bowl receivers – now go and take a look at the best season both receivers had with Brady – Brown had ONE season with 1000+ yards receiving and never had a double digit TD season – Branch never had a 1000 yard season or a double digit TD season with Brady
It just makes me want to puke every time idiots say that Manning had better receivers than Brady…It only seems that way because Manning is the better QB – he makes his receivers MUCH BETTER than they are – you think Harrison would’ve done what he did with someone else?
Brady needed a freak like Moss to finally have big numbers…we all know what Moss did throughout his career for the numbers of shitty QBs – Culpepper, Collins, etc etc
by manningtoharrison on Dec 20, 2010 3:37 AM EST reply actions
Just like Manning made Harrison and Wayne and Collie and Clark good
Three first-round draft picks, and they’re only good because of Manning? Uh. Right. If they weren’t already pretty good, they wouldn’t have been drafted in the first round.
If Brady was such a great QB, he’d have turned Branch, Troy Brown into All Pro, Pro Bowl receivers – now go and take a look at the best season both receivers had with Brady – Brown had ONE season with 1000+ yards receiving and never had a double digit TD season – Branch never had a 1000 yard season or a double digit TD season with Brady
Troy Brown did have a Pro Bowl season – 2001, where he had 101 receptions and ~1200 yards receiving. That was from an undersized, relatively slow WR drafted in the 8th round. And Deion Branch was remarkable because he was a guy who played far better in playoffs, including one Super Bowl MVP. He wasn’t supremely gifted, big, fast or agile, but he was still amazingly productive with Brady throwing at him. More to the point, he wasn’t productive in Seattle with Matt Hasselbeck throwing to him, but once he gets back to Brady he’s suddenly amazing again. Funny coincidence, that.
Also funny how you fail to mention how he turned Wes Welker into an All Pro and Pro Bowl WR when Welker had never broken 600 yards as a ’Phin. And how you fail to mention how he threw 37 TDs to Randy Moss in only 36 games together, including the all time TD record for a QB, and the all time TD record for a WR in a single season. The one time he gets a great WR, he breaks every record imaginable.
It just makes me want to puke every time idiots say that Manning had better receivers than Brady…It only seems that way because Manning is the better QB – he makes his receivers MUCH BETTER than they are – you think Harrison would’ve done what he did with someone else?
Yes, I do think Harrison would’ve done what he did with someone else (although perhaps not quite as productive). First-round draftee WRs tend to be pretty good – that’s why they’re drafted where they are. You fail to realise Harrison already had 14 receiving TDs and 1600 yards before Manning started throwing to him. It wasn’t like he was unproductive without Manning; on the contrary, he was extremely productive as a young WR. He’s no creation of Manning.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 20, 2010 5:26 AM EST up reply actions
Here's some more fuel...
for this debate’s fire. This guy (Kerry J. Byrne)‘s slop is one more reason to really think about doing away with SI.com… I’ve never seen a more Patriots biased group of writers outside of NE. Give Brady .01% better passer rating than Manning and suddenly it’s a huge to-do for SI to blast Manning for being a inferior QB who plays in a stat-pumping dome.
Eff the Patriots. Eff Brady and his stat-pumping, over-protecting, O-line and admittedly better defense. Eff Sports Illustrated.
You can plug anybody into the Pats’ system and win games and look like a champ (i.e. Matt Cassel) but you can’t just plug anybody into the Colts’ offense and expect to do the same. It takes much more “skill” at QB to win with the Colts’ system.
You mean Manning's system
Because apparently he’s the only reason the Colts have won a game for the last 12 years. Your O-line gets called out for doing a crappy job, yet nothing is done to fix the problem? If Brady has a good line in front of him, it’s because he didn’t force his team to draft receivers in the first round and use 6th and 7th round linemen to pass-protect.
Maybe if the Colts would draft some linemen early on, Manning would have more rings (please don’t, Mr Polian, if you’re reading this). By taking skill position players, the Colts are picking an offense to do well indoors where they can put up 35 odd points, instead of building a team that is capable of winning when the offense can only score 14 (ie OUTDOORS in January), hamstringing the team should they not secure home-field.
How does a good O-line boost stats? Throwing to 1st round draft picks is better for numbers than a good O-line.
As for the system/plugin argument, look at what Cassel is doing in KC – he’s ranked 5th in passer rating (ahead of Manning, Brees, Rapistberger, Ryan and Schaub among others), and has 24 TDS (7th in the league) to 5 INTS – hardly the numbers of a scrub backup. Not to mention (again) that he took over a team that was 40 seconds from 19-0 and led them to an 11-5 record – a 40% drop-off in wins. All that showed was that he was about 60% as good as Brady (most teams would kill for a QB that’s 60% as good as Brady).
Who has been designing the plays for Manning in his NFL career? Two guys – Tom Moore originally and Manning himself (all Christensen does is put in Moore’s plays for Manning to overrule change on the field) . Who has been Brady’s playcaller? Weis (Screens and small-ball playbook), McDaniels (orchestrated the greatest offense of all time – the Mad Bomber, and then had Cassel play small-ball), O’Brien (some Mad Bomber early and small-ball recently) and Brady. Who has had more stability, I wonder – the guy who has had the one playbook for his career, or the one that has fitted in with 3 or 4 different styles as his OCs were headhunted? (there is a reason that Manning’s coordinators are not wanted around the league – they don’t do anything)
The article was pointing out that since Brady has passed Manning in career stats, the fallback argument for Manning supporters is no longer valid – that Manning has better numbers so must be a better QB. Even though Brady plays outside in real weather conditions, he is Manning’s statistical equal, or superior (just).
Manning and Brady are both Hall-of-Famers, both have rings, both have MVPs (fairly or unfairly given, they still count), both have SB MVPs, and both will be so close to one another in final career numbers that it won’t matter.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Dec 22, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
So much profanity?
You keep talking about the o-line for Brady but you keep ignoring Manning’s top flight receivers/tight ends/backs he’s had all his playing career in Indy. Don’t those top skill players help Manning with his stats? They’re first round picks for a reason … if Manning didn’t have Harrison, Wayne, James, Clark, Addai, Gonzalez, etc. you really think his “stats” would be as great? Since 2003, four or all five of the offensive skilled positions have been occupied by these first rounders (2010 an exception due to injuries).
Another thing you like to ignore is the playing outdoors. Perfect weather conditions sure will help Manning and his stats, whereas Brady plays his best in the worst weather conditions, not something Manning can duplicate. Despite this fact, ignoring Mannings top targets and Brady’s o-line, Brady continues to have outstanding stats.
You cannot have such one sided arguments … without saying Manning doesn’t get the benefit of playing indoors most of the time and having some of the best, if not the best receivers in the NFL — these facts don’t help Manning at all? It’s all Manning? Only Manning?
Just because you cannot accept facts doesn’t mean they’re wrong. Manning fans had always used statistics as the main reason Manning is the “better” of the two, but now they’re statistically the same. I think you’ll have to get used to it.
Manning is terrific, no doubt about it. It’s just that Brady is “better!”
Re: M. Cassell, he had a very good year for New England (but they did play against the weak AFC and NFC west divisions that year – that’s eight games, half the schedule — the best teams were 8-8 Chargers and 9-7 Cardinals; combined record of 45-83). Nevertheless, look at what he’s done in Kansas City and that’s not New England (9-5 record, one of the loss he didn’t play the game; 24 td / 5 int). Maybe another T. Brady in the making — makes sense since he was a 7th rounder.
by oddlotbuyer on Dec 22, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You can plug anybody into the Pats’ system and win games and look like a champ (i.e. Matt Cassel) but you can’t just plug anybody into the Colts’ offense and expect to do the same. It takes much more "skill" at QB to win with the Colts’ system.
ESPN analyst Trent Dilfer continues to marvel at the New England Patriots’ ever-changing offense.
But it wasn’t necessarily what he witnessed Sunday night against the Green Bay Packers that has him jazzed. Dilfer re-examined the film from the Patriots’ blowout victory over the New York Jets in Week 13 and was stunned by what he saw.
The Patriots were unpredictable to an unprecedented degree in Dilfer’s mind.
Dilfer said rookie tight ends Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez have "dramatically reshaped their offensive philosophy. They’re so versatile."
Dilfer charted 27 different formations and "over a dozen personnel groupings" on the Patriots’ first 27 plays that weren’t at the goal line.
"This is unheard of," Dilfer said. "I’ve been studying football for 20 years and never seen anything like it.
"It’s this type of forward thinking that makes Bill Belichick and the New England Patriots a cut above everybody else. Look for them to continue to find new and unique ways to win football games."
The fact is Cassel has better stats in 2010 than Manning does. Cassel’s a legitimate QB. Yet in 2008 Cassel only won 11 games. In 2007, with the same supporting cast, Brady was 2 minutes and a defensive lapse shy of winning 19 games. Cassel’s 2008 was only ~60% as successful as Brady’s 2007. Does that mean Brady is 143% as good as Cassel? Considering Cassel’s outperforming Manning (and he got a Win 11 days after having major surgery last week!), what does that say about Brady?
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Dec 22, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Additional Stats
Manning QB Rating Pct Yds/Game Yds/Att TD Int TD/Int
Outdoors….. 91.0%. 64.4%… 268.3. 7.4…166. 97 1.71
Indoors……. 98.7%.. 65.5%… 260.3. 7.8.. 228. 99 2.30
Precip……… 83.8%. 64.8%… 256.1. 7.1… 11.. 10 1.10
Windy………. 82.6%. 62.7%… 238.5. 6.8… 39.. 31 1.26
Brady…. QB Rating Pct Yds/Game Yds/Att TD Int TD/Int
Outdoors….. 94.1%.. 63.3%… 238.6. 7.3… 227. 90 2.52
Indoors…… 103.1%. 67.2%… 258.7. 8.4… 29.. 13. 2.23
Precip……… 94.2%. 62.9%… 253.8. 7.7… 16… 5.. 3.20
Windy………. 95.5%. 62.8%… 234.0. 7.3… 97.. 34. 2.85
In every apples to apples comparison, Brady’s QB rating exceeds Manning’s, whether outdoors, indoors, precipitation games or windy games. The TD to interception ratio is identical indoors but Brady clobbers Manning in outdoor and especially poor weather games. Manning having to play only a handful of poor weather games can protect his "statistics" by playing in the cozy confines of weather perfect dome – and despite this significant indoor advantage, overall, their statistics are now identical.
by oddlotbuyer on Dec 22, 2010 1:09 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
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