The stupid "Manning legacy dented" thing
I liked Jonathan Vilma long before Super Bowl 44. He was run out of New York by then-Jets coach Eric Mangini, who doesn't know how to coach to save his life. My opinion of Vilma jumped up another 5 notches after the Super Bowl when, down in the player locker room area, I saw Vilma walk up to a departing Jeff Saturday and whisper something to him. Satuday smiled and gave Vilma a quick hug, thanking him for the compliment. Vilma shook his hand and went on to party into the night.
Jonathan Vilma. Classy guy.
Vilma also has some words for people who seem to moronically think Peyton Manning legacy was "damaged" by him throwing for 333 yards, 1 ID, 1 INT, and a 87 QB rating in the Super Bowl. From Paul Kuharsky:
"I don’t think it dents him," Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma said. "He’s one of the top three quarterbacks in the league right now. Would he like to have that throw back? Of course. But every quarterback would like to have his interceptions back.
"I don’t think it really does anything to his legacy. He’s still going to be a Hall of Fame quarterback. And if he wins another, he’ll probably be the best quarterback to ever play the game."
Paul Kuharsky is simply wrong when he maintains that the Super Bowl hurt Manning's legacy. I say this with affection for Paul. I love the little bald dude! However, he has a tendency to come up with opinions that don't seem to be backed up by anything truly tangible, like when he said Tom Brady was the QB of the decade. NFL players, coaches, and personnel people don't agree with him. I spoke to many of them; all seemed to agree Manning is the gold standard. The only people who might take Kuharsky's side are lazy, out-of-touch NFL writers like Jason Cole and the same loser NFL fans who are bashing Manning now but didn't have the stones to do it prior to last Sunday.
When people like that are in your corner about something, it should tell you all you need to know about the strength of your argument on that subject.
Manning's legacy is just fine. Anyone who disagrees is an idiot. It's literally that simple. If I have to spell it out for you by reading you a laundry list of Manning accomplishments, you are already a schmuck and changing your warped, infantile mind is nothing but an exercise in futility for me.
Yes, I'm talking about you Peter Bean. After you're done shouting to the world that Peyton Manning "choked" in Super Bowl 44, you can go back to stroking Vince Young off before you head over to your nearby Hooters to pick fights with 65-year-old men (true story... the 65-year-old-man thing, not the Vince Young stroke job, I think). P.S.- I'm secretly jealous Peter gets to party at the South Bend Hooters.
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Just trying to sell stories
Sports writers who say this “dents” or “hurts” (or whatever their action verb of the day is) Manning’s legacy are just plain stupid and simply trying to get us fans to click on the story. Unfortunately, this works a high percentage of the time including with yours truly.
Peyton Manning is a first ballot hall of famer and will retire as one of the greatest ever. I still believe he has 5 solid years left. And I believe the Colts will win at least one more SB before his career is over.
His legacy is tainted a bit. Maybe not in your eyes, but the media is the one who usually determine a player’s legacy. Manning will be remembered for lots of playoff failures that he played some part in. With 1 SB, people can say it was a fluke and he was carried by his defense (which is partly true except for 1 half vs. the Patriots).
But no one can win a SB alone, my friend
Post any team which its ring was brought due to a magnificent offense and a poor defense at the POs. Maybe you’ll say the Saints this year, but still, they managed to intercept Favre when it was needed. Same thing with Manning, and that’s why a team must win a SB. You can’t put the weight of winning a SB alone on the offense, or on the QB, or on your stellar RB. You must have at least a balance to make it. If you don’t, like the Colts, you’ll not win.
Quitters never win, but cheaters sometimes do
Before one can answer the question "How does this affect Peyton Manning's legacy?"
They must answer the question “What is Peyton Manning’s legacy?”. If you believe that his legacy is that he is the most prolific passer in NFL history, then it does not affect his legacy. If you believe that his legacy is that he is the greatest regular season QB in NFL history, then it does not affect his legacy. If you believe that his legacy is that he is the greatest QB or player of any kind in NFL history, then it does affect his legacy.
Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Stampede Blue's Resident Steelers Fan
"[T]he Steelers have been evil pieces of crap for a long time who play dirty and seek to injure their opponents, and one day there will be a reckoning."
FriarBob
Can't you just feel the love?
by LV Steelers Fan on Feb 12, 2010 2:14 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
And I agree with you
As well as your team means shit without Polamalu…
Quitters never win, but cheaters sometimes do
We are average to mediocre without Polamalu
Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Stampede Blue's Resident Steelers Fan
"[T]he Steelers have been evil pieces of crap for a long time who play dirty and seek to injure their opponents, and one day there will be a reckoning."
FriarBob
Can't you just feel the love?
by LV Steelers Fan on Feb 12, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Rec'd
I for one believe that Manning is the greatest QB of all time. 4 MVPs speaks volumes. But its hard to feel as good about him after he cemented a SB loss with a pick-6. If the Colts lost in ANY other fashion, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. But it did, and unfortunately its part of the equation when trying to determine who the greatest QB of all time is.
I agree with all of this
but I also believe that he will get at least one more chance to throw an interception in the SB.
Indianapolis Colts, taking focus away from my DBacks every Sunday.
Tim Keown may have hit the nail on the head with this one
(link)
Who gives a damn right now about Peyton Manning’s legacy? In 5-7 years (or whenever he retires), then it’s up for debate. The multitude of knee-jerk reactions is stunning, and frankly, speaks poorly of the sports media today.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
that's a good point
Brady went from washed up to better than Manning in the span of 1 pass. Same way with Roethlisburger apparently, looking at you Jason Cole.
Indianapolis Colts, taking focus away from my DBacks every Sunday.
And since you mentioned Brady
(and if it’s ok to judge #18 on a single pass), the last we saw of Brady, he was getting picked off 3 times on his home field losing to the No. 6 seed.
(Now, that said, I would still say he’s the league’s No. 2 QB.)
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Feb 12, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ugh
Whatever man…
"I definitely believe in destiny, and I believe in karma and what goes around comes around. We have been on the other side of this deal probably too many times. Maybe it's our time that we start catching some of the breaks, and start being the team that wins them like this in the end." -- Drew Brees
Nah.
I’d say Brees and then Big Ben.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Even though the Colts lost, it was a good season. Random facts will resume next week when I recover.
So...
Pretty much every year that the Colts don’t win the Super Bowl hurts Mannings legacy. I think maybe that speaks to the talent of the player… that the bar is set so high that only winning a championship every year can achieve expectations.
by invisibulman on Feb 12, 2010 2:23 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd.
It’s not enough that the Manning-helmed Colts have acheived a playoff berth for the past eight years or that they’ve had a record of 12+ wins for the past seven seasons or that he doesn’t have fluke seasons with either too great play or too poor.
No, because of all those things he must 1) Get to the SB every year and 2) win it. Otherwise, he’s underperforming come postseason.
Interesting perspective.
I’m inclined to agree with that.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Even though the Colts lost, it was a good season. Random facts will resume next week when I recover.
I think the important thing to remember is that Manning’s “legacy” is incomplete. If he retired today would the superbowl loss be a factor in his legacy? Of course it would be. Those are career defining games and will always color a guys’ legacy.
Of course, this doesn’t mean he stinks or is a choke artist like some people tend to say. That’s obviously silly…. But we can’t act like wins or losses in Super Bowls don’t have an effect on a guy’s legacy. Fairly or not, this is how history judges quarterbacks.
Either way, any discussions Manning’s legacy are premature until he’s actually completed the legacy… Plus, the mere fact that people discuss the implications of the Super Bowl on a guy’s “legacy” is an admission that he’s a great player. People don’t talk about Derrick Anderson’s “legacy.” You have to among the best to have anyone discuss your “legacy.”
by JasonB on Feb 12, 2010 2:35 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Well said.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 12, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
I have no affection for Kuharsky.
The majority of what he writes regarding the Colts is either very weak or seemingly biased against them. He lives in Nashville and was a beat writer for the Titans so I expect nothing more from him.
Frankly, I don’t give a damn what he thinks or what anyone else in the media thinks (or writes) and I’ll even go as far as to say I don’t give a rat’s @ss what fans of other teams think. Peyton is taking a beating right now from practically everyone and it’s not right. I have found myself writing-off all sorts of media outlets and blogs in the past few days. And frankly, I’m a much calmer, serene person for it. I highly recommend it.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
LOL.
You don’t seem calm or serene.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Even though the Colts lost, it was a good season. Random facts will resume next week when I recover.
I'm calmer and more serene than I would be
if I subjected myself to some of the “articles” that are out there. I’m not even clicking on links,I don’t want to contribute to some MSM’s “hits.”
I think if I read some of the garbage out there right now, I’d be sitting in a bell tower with a rifle. lol
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Feb 14, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
That's a nice thought.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Even though the Colts lost, it was a good season. Random facts will resume next week when I recover.
lol
Everything’s relative, my friend. ;-) Please excuse my twisted sense of humor.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Feb 14, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Saints
I think the Saints actually paid Peyton the ultimate compliment with their aggressive play calling designed to keep #18 on the sidelines. Do you think they go for it on 4th and goal, or do an onsides kick against the Jets? No way. The same that now way Belichick goes for it on 4th and 2 against anyone other than Manning.
The way the Saints approached the game speaks volumes about what opponents think of Manning. That’s his legacy.
Onside kick against Jets? If game film showed a weakness, then yes the Saints would.
If you are saying the Jets have a much better Special teams coach than the Colts then no.
Sean Payton will do anything to win against any team. I have watched how Sean Payton coaches for 4 years now. He was a lot wilder in his first year as head coach. Thus we went farther than we would have under any coach in 2006(NFC championship game). The NFC south adjusted as did most of the NFL, after watching film from 2006. They fixed their special teams, and the other things he was attacking. He can only take advantage of teams we don’t play often. But given 2 weeks to game plan, he saw a weakness and went for it. He told the defensive players in the locker room during halftime what he wanted to do, and asked them what they thought about it. A shout from the crowd, “We have your back coach.” Then a chorus of cheers “Let’s do it!” If the Colts special teams were properly coached he wouldn’t have gone for it. Not everything revolves around Manning, I am surprised that the other players on the Colts don’t get pissed off for the lack of respect that everyone shows them. Football is the ultimate team sport, otherwise it would be called Manningball.
The 4th and goal? Do you think Bilicheck would have kicked a field goal? The announcers were saying go for it, but then again they were recommending that the Saints don’t blitz right before Tracy Porter intercepted Manning. I watched the game at home, I had the front door open(to smoke). I heard people screaming at the top of their lungs to “Go for it!” for blocks around my house(I was one of them). I am pretty sure that Sean Payton would have been criticized for not going for it in our local papers.
As far as respecting Manning, the Saints very much respect him, as does New Orleans. He is an elite quarterback. And off the field he is a great person. For the rest of my life I will never forget the sight of Peyton and Eli unloading supplies during the hurricane aftermath.
All I should know is
A Dr. is supposed to spell “Who that” correctly
Quitters never win, but cheaters sometimes do
Jesus fucking Christ
We get it. You’re more intelligent than people from Louisiana because you say “who that” instead of “Who Dat.” We’re dim rednecks and all live in trailers, while you’re sophisticated and haughty. Be proud.
Can you think of something else to do besides mock a poster who wasn’t trolling and wasn’t belittling your team? Y’know, like responding to the actual points in his post.
I really don’t like you. I’ve asked you several times to show a little more respect to us. You’re an elitish asshole, and you jump at every opportunity to take shots at Saints fans, the state in general, and the you-know-what that devastated the region. Get over yourself, you little jerk.
"There are those that make it happen, those that watch it happen, and those that stand around and wonder what the hell happened." -- Drew Brees
by J of the F on Feb 13, 2010 10:34 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
he is from brazil
those foreigners dont know any better lol
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
i love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.....159mph is my top speed
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
and the greater irony
is that “who that” isn’t proper either
just ignore him, J of the F – he’s pretty young and as mathew.40 points out, Brazilian… there are subtleties of American culture that don’t come through well over the Internets
How can you not love a team that does this?
Curse words and insults are one thing
But being so disrespectful to the Good Lord is another animal entirely. Please use a different exclamation next time.
Keep the faith!
by Marima on Feb 13, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
wholeheartedly agreed
that makes me cringe terribly, and I’m not at all religious
How can you not love a team that does this?
Rec'd
‘cause you had the guts to say it. I’ve asked myself why anyone would risk insulting God, but never mentioned it. Good for you, Marima!
If I'm wrong for using Christ's name in a curse
May he strike you all down! [/Carlin]
"There are those that make it happen, those that watch it happen, and those that stand around and wonder what the hell happened." -- Drew Brees
Yeah, I'm just an ass
And a Brazilian, and I’m young and “misunderstood” and yes, “who that” is also incorrect. But fine, I’ll stop “trolling” because this weekend started too good and I won’t be worrying about my comments here.
May the Force be with you, with New Orleans, with everybody. God won’t mind over cursing when you’re calling him anyway; everybody does it.
Quitters never win, but cheaters sometimes do
Dude... chill.
J/F over-reacted to your post, but it sounds like he assumed you’re from Indiana. I’ve read your posts and think you add quite a bit to this blog. I gather that English might not be your first language, but i think you do quite well interacting with us. Don’t take it personally, dude.
While i'm thinking about it...
It might be wise to put ourselves in a Saints fan’s position for a sec. I’d guess they’re as tired of getting slammed for the Who Dat thing as we are of Baltimore fans claiming we stole their team.
He over-reacted. It’s nothing personal.
While i personally think his outburst was inappropriate (God’s name isn’t something to be toyed with), I’ve over-reacted before too… maybe you have as well? At any rate, I’d hate to see you withdraw and stop participating, trOOly.
It's not just this thread
He’s shown his ass in just about every thread possible, taking shots at Saints fans, the natural disasters, etc.
It got old very, very fast.
"There are those that make it happen, those that watch it happen, and those that stand around and wonder what the hell happened." -- Drew Brees
I'm a coonass not a redneck
But then again most of the readers here or anywhere else in the country would not understand. :)
(crickets)
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Even though the Colts lost, it was a good season. Random facts will resume next week when I recover.
actually
the other players on the team DO call out the lack of respect they get, but it’s the lack of respect paid them by the media, not by their own team. When the Colts wrap up players like Bob Sanders and Kelvin Hayden with significant multi-year contracts, and Gary Brackett is seen as the #2 player to wrap up this offseason (after a restructure of Peyton’s contract), at least they see that they’re a respected part of the team. That said, I’ve followed all the Colts players who are on Twitter, several on D, and they definitely notice what’s said about their ability. Not sure if that’s the vein in which you meant your comment, but it might address your statement about getting pissed off.
As for the comment about Payton not going for it if the special teams were properly coached, I only partially agree. I agree in the sense that the team should always be ready for the surprise, maybe should have hesitated a half second more, and that they should know to knock the ball the f*** out of the field if they touch it. However, my understanding is that Payton was actually given advice from an outsider to pull the stops and to gamble. In the biggest game of the year, and can be argued that it’s counter-intuitive to gamble, so he definitely took the Colts by surprise. But I also can’t believe that the Colts were the only team that would have been surprised by this move. When you’re down by only 4 at the half, there is PLENTY of time to regain the lead. Kudos to the Saints for doing it, but I consider it more gamble than brilliance or a failure of the Colts coaching.
How can you not love a team that does this?
Post fail
I did not mean any disrespect to true Colts fans. Yes the media is very biased, but the media is my only way to get information on the colts besides this site. The only other thing besides Manning that I heard before the Superbowl was anklegate. And they were shocked that the Colts defense was actually kinda good. Manning gets all the glory for the Colts in the national media. I for one am glad that they are not doing that to Drew Brees, at least not yet. I am strongly convinced that New Orleans would never set Drew above the rest of the team. A recent article in Newsweek perfectly described our relationship with our team much better than I ever could.
You should know your coaches better than me, but the players were defiantly backpedaling before the kick. If the players were where they were supposed to be the Colts would have had the ball. I am also sure that Sean Payton welcomed advice from people he respected, Gruden, Parcells, etc. But it was still his call.
Well
I personally think the players were in a good position to field the onside kick, but the fatal flaw was how Baskett decided to field the ball – with his facemask instead of his hands.
Baskett could have, and should have, easily fielded the ball clean and without any trouble….not saying that would have changed the end result of the game, but the onside kick was pretty huge for the Saints.
I don't always drink beer....but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis.
by AceOfSpades on Feb 14, 2010 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
And that's why
I hope Baskett and Kendra ride off Indianapolis any time soon. Well, let me put this point: Baskett wasn’t expecting anything. His job was to block (or at least try) to open holes to our returners, and he wasn’t gonna touch the ball. But he had to. And it was one of the plays that definitively changed the game, and increased Saints’ confidence in winning that game. Meanwhile, it seemed like our team was giving up and was going to try to hold the best offense in the league to only 17 points. That’s not gonna happen. Maybe it’d happen if we’re the Jets, but we’re not.
Even the Jets couldn’t hold us to 17+ points; Are we gonna do it with the Saints? That was one of bad calls from our coaches that followed this game
Quitters never win, but cheaters sometimes do
I understand what you're saying, LB
but i do think it was a Colts coaching failure.
If the ST coaches observe their players back-pedaling, they should correct it (after the play? half-time? SOMETIME!). Once corrected, it either:
1. Causes Payton to drop the idea
2. Puts the Colts in a better position to recover the onside kick
If Payton saw it, our coaches should have as well, and it’s their job to correct it.
So yeah… i pretty much blame the coaches. Maybe it’s due to putting an emphasis on improving the return game (apparently at the expense of disciplining the players to stay put until they’re sure the kick is long).
One thing leads to another:
1. ST coaches put emphasis on proper technique
2. Players hold the line until the kick is over their heads
3. Payton doesn’t identify and exploit a weakness
Correct either #1 or #2, and the onside kick never happens. Colts win, and we’re over at the Saints blog consoling them.
heh
Well said.
or typed, whatever. I completely agree. Basket’s (in particular) tendancy to back-pedal should have been addressed.
At the time, I thought that call by Payton was bush league. But really, it was brilliant. Nobody saw it coming. Fortunately for him, it worked. Had Hank had the presence of mind to bat the ball out and we ended up winning, he would have beaten both Bilichick and Caldwell out for the worse decision of the year by a coach. I’m obviously talking about the 4th and 2 and week 16.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Feb 14, 2010 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
Now THAT is a nice thought...
and i’ll carry it with me for the next 5 months until football starts again. Just imagine… The best team in the NFC knows it has to trick the Colts in order to have a chance at winning, and they FAIL because the Colts are totally and utterly disciplined!
Ahhhhh… it’s nice here in Teej’s fantasy world.
Would you pass me another pina colada, please?
And for anybody doubting that our ST coverage guys were cheating backwards, i’ve got the game recorded… just reviewed it to be sure… no question.
lol
Yeah, I’m planning on staying in denial until at least preseason. I hate the offseason.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on Feb 14, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
He's no Joe Montana...
and he never can be.
As someone said, he’ll probably go down as the greatest statistical quarterback of all-time. He’ll probably go down as the best regular season quarterback of all-time.
Without 4 Super Bowl rings or a better playoff record, he can’t really challenge Joe Montana’s claim on Best Super Bowl QB. As unfair as it may seem to you guys, he can’t even get up to Brady or Big Ben playoff levels. Yes, it’s ridiculous to put it all on one player, but that’s how quarterbacks are seen. Especially since they win a ton of MVP awards. Especially Peyton since he’s acknowledged to make the Colts into what they are.
I don't think anyone here wants to crown Peyton Best Super Bowl QB.
He’s only been to two. That would be silly. (And personally, I really don’t give a damn who the best SB QB is.)
I never suggested that...
However, well, his legacy is to become the new Farve.
Favre has the records. One day, he’ll be forgotten when Peyton takes them all away (interceptions aside) and puts them at a ridiculous level.
Can Peyton surpass that Favre-level by growing his playoff legend? Most likely (I think he retires with at least another ring) but that is not a certainity.
In my opinion,
somebodys legacy is all a matter of opinion. My feelings on Mannings legacy is probably going to be different than the opinion of other fans. I, personally, think that Manning is arguably the best QB ever. Some will feel different, and it’s always going to be that way, no matter what Peyton does with the rest of his career. Manning was probably going to the Hall of Fame without the first Super Bowl win. Everything he does from here on out is just icing on the cake. I don’t think this Super Bowl loss hurts his legacy. He had a pretty decent game. He wasn’t the one that couldn’t stop the Saints from marching down the field. He wasn’t the one that gave up 30 points. You can’t pin any loss on one person, either offensive or defensive.
by IsThisNameTaken on Feb 13, 2010 10:14 AM EST reply actions
Agreed
If Marino went to Canton with a 0-1 SB record, Manning will do it with a 1-1 record, and hopefully it’ll be a 2, 3 or even a 4-1 record when he retires. And he’s still 33, so I’d say, considering a 2011 lockout, the Colts will surely get 4 playoff berths.
Quitters never win, but cheaters sometimes do
Love you too, Brad
And believe me, the old dude was asking for it. Literally running around yelling THE SAINTS ARE GOING DOWN, DOWN DOWN in the face of anyone cheering for the Saints. By the end of the first quarter he was screaming about a blowout. So my Colts hate was in full force for this’n.
Congrats on a good season, Indy. Can’t say I’m sorry y’all lost, but I can say that I do feel your pain. Still stinging from the Rose Bowl loss.
You ain't hurt...

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