That greedy bastard.

when I’m talking about the restructuring of contracts, I’m talking about when the media would say, ‘Peyton and Marvin are redoing their deals to help the team!’, when, in fact, all they were doing was converting roster bonii to signing bonii.

“Being classy” is not what I want this team to be remembered by….I want them to win.

Years from now, no one is going to remember HOW teams won the Super Bowl, but they will remember WHO won it.

it was more like smelly, ugly ass

I was looking first for a good-natured, “blue collar” team first, then the Cal thing was the cherry on top. But that’s because I was going AWAY from a Raiders-first support. Thus, the class WAS more important to me.

The fact of the matter is, you were a Colts fan before they became ‘classy’. Sure, you may have liked them more after the became ‘classy’ in your eyes, but they were still your team.

Yeeaaaah… and now, it’s one of my criteria for liking a team. What you point out does not negate my point.

1) There are a lot of people out there that don’t view the Colts as a classy team.

Not my problem. I know what the team is like. And I don’t feel like writing the franchise off for single issues, like the regular season Jets game this year.

a) They don’t like that Polian is on the competition committee and got a rules emphasis on the 5-yard chuck rule (Actually, I’m cleaning up what they really feel).

Yes, but both you and I know what the story is behind that. I personally don’t feel it’s a bad thing to ask referees to actually enforce a rule.

b) They don’t like a lot of Dungy’s non-football related comments (especially pertaining to homosexuality).

c) They still don’t like the Colts, rightly or wrongly, because of 1984.

Dungy honestly states what he feels about that topic. And he can be fairly criticized for his beliefs by anyone if they disagree. Regardless, that to me is more a personal religious issue that doesn’t apply to the franchise.

And yes, the move from Baltimore was the opposite of a class move. I don’t deny that. What I also don’t do is hold that against them this many years in the future. Not with the only person I’m aware of remaining from that time being Irsay.

So my point here would be: who is the judge of classy? If you say ‘well, thats each person’s opinion’, I would agree, but it would also reinforce my point that ‘classy’ doesn’t really exist. It’s a moving target placed to meet someone’s specific needs.

Given that we’re talking about my enjoyment of the Colts, I’d say that I’m a judge. And apparently, there are quite a few here that agree with my judgement. LovinBlue appears to be one of them.

And as to the other point: So what? Relativism in judging a qualitative characteristic can only be stretched so far. No one ever judges the things I mentioned in my own judgement – the work ethic, the concentration and dedication to the sport that Manning brings, the community service – as not classy.

2) You clearly didn’t single the Colts out as the team you wanted to follow BECAUSE of their class. They were your team, and they happened to, in your eyes, get classy.

Yes, after experiencing their way of doing things, I decided that I liked it better than a ruthless organization that isn’t considered classy. The timing of my decision does not change the fact that it is one of my criteria. When I said, quote “f I wanted to be the fan of a classless and trophy-rich team, I wouldn’t be a Colts fan”, I was talking about my current attitude. If I had meant that back then it was my starting criteria, I would’ve phrased it in the past-perfect: “If I wanted to be the fan of a classless and trophy-rich team, I wouldn’t have become a Colts fan back then”.

Again, none of that changes my criteria, nor negates my statement.

Look, I love reading your posts, Spaz, so I’m not asking this in the sense of being argumentative. Rather, I’m curious. Why the nitpickery over the timing of my decision? Does that really change the fact that it’s one of my criteria for liking a team, and is from now on a criteria I employ to judge sports organizations with?

How can you provide an argument to ‘contracts can’t be classy’?…

I think I’m a little confused by this. Are you referring to when I said “this move with Lilja to me demonstrates that there is another class move possible”? If so, the move I’m talking about is granting him the bonus, despite cutting him. Unless my joke above was true and that’s extortion money , then the granting of the bonus was all about goodwill, since they’re getting nothing in return for giving it to him, except possibly a pass from arbitration if he chooses to make an issue about it.

Possibly you were talking about the structure of the contracts themselves, or that “hometown discount” you mentioned later in the post. If so, whoops, I misunderstood what you were getting at. All I was talking about was honoring an optional element in his contract that Indy apparently wasn’t obligated to honor. They did anyway. Without argument (or at least public argument).

Deeming something classy doesn’t, in fact, make it classy.

Again with the relativism. I deem taking candy from a baby unclassy. I can retail the argument as to why, or I can sum it up with a single word. In the case of applying the term to the Colts, I’m taking the trouble to delineate why both via the specific example that LovinBlue identified, and some other, more general characteristics and activities. My the application of the term to the Colts is not without reason.

There are several elements to class, admittedly with fuzzy edges but also defining in a clear manner characteristics that are not classy. We can discard the others that apply in general but are not applicable here, such as dignity, and concentrate on the ones that do: Courtesy, generosity, and graciousness. It’s hard to argue that choosing to pay an optional bonus that is not obligated to be paid is un-classy in that it is not generous, courteous, or gracious. If it’s none of those, bring the argument. The worst you can say about it is that it’s a net neutral – and I still ask for a case if that’s your stance – but it’s definitely not a net negative. Given that, again, this has all the appearances of being a gift, and can be argued to be parting appreciation, and also given that it wasn’t an obligation, I find it hard to construct any argument that it didn’t meet the description of being courteous, generous, and gracious. Those are the representative elements of class that apply here.

But again, make a counter argument.

It’s a mindset to comport yourself in a classy way.

Some people say the same thing about religion.

NO RELIGION OR POLITICS.

Actually, it’s psychology. Whether one gets that from religion or politics is his or her own business.

5) Classy and Winning may not be mutually exclusive, but paying someone 1.7 million dollars and then cutting them when you’re a small market team with a bottom-half owner in terms of liquid wealth isn’t good business. To show me that there are any positive effects, other than wrapping ourselves in a blanket of good feelings knowing we’re "classy", I need you to provide me any examples of where our niceness and classiness has reaped rewards. IE: Some FA coming to the Colts at a discount. One of our star players taking a home town discount to stay. Hell, one of our star players not using a rival team as leverage to stay. Any coaches, etc… turning down jobs to stay.

Please, point out one example where "class" has paid off some cosmic karmaic benefit.

Why? That’s not my argument. In fact, I’ve been making the exact opposite argument, that it was an act that had no hope for positive benefit. We’re losing Lilja after paying him a million-seven. And Indy gets nothing in return?

My definition of both “classy” and “good” never included the element of having it be revisited back on the team. The idea was that the act was a generous one, not one expecting benefit.

Actually, all of my arguments have ‘traction’, it just depends on your belief system.

Meh… I dunno, buddy. It seems to be sorta slipping around to me. But whatever. I still like talking to you. No sarcasm intended; I honestly view this as fun debate.

Paying a 1.7M roster bonus would remove 1.7M from the cap.

Ok, then, there’s the first reasonable objection.

My point, which again, doesn’t get traction in your eyes, when bringing up ancillary benefits of being ‘classy’ is that being ‘classy’ is clearly more important to the fans than it is to players or coaches. The Colts have won a lot of regular season games, they have the best QB in the league, they have a lot of ‘the best in the leagues’ as a matter of fact, and, by many, they are considered ‘classy’.

Players apparently don’t care about any of those things.

When did I argue otherwise? Regardless, it doesn’t matter whether they consciously care or not. The whole idea behind a loosely defined characteristic as “class” as applies in this argument is how a team comports itself. If they do so in a classy way, I don’t really care if they do it consciously or just naturally, I’m only glad that it’s happening, and that it speaks positively for them.

I do not care about class or regular season wins anymore. Been there, done that, have a closet full of classy regular season Jerseys. They only regular season wins I care about is if the Colts go 16-0.

Classy, douchey, whatever… All I care about is watching my team win Championships within the rules.

And I want more. As an IU basketball fan, I did have to suffer an unclassy coach just recently: Sampson. He was also a cheater – he got the “Show Cause” banning" from the NCAA for his acts – but there were other acts that came off as unclassy, most of them applying to player discipline. I tried to get excited, but I just couldn’t, even when they were winning. He made the program sink to a new low, and there were only two players you got any sense of class from during that time. They were the only saving grace from that time period. I’ve seen both sides, maybe not in the same sport, but I’ve seen it. It bothers me that they lost a great deal of what it means to be a Hoosier during that time. It bothered me that Sosa and Bonds were busted for performance enhancing drugs in baseball. And guess what? It bugs me that Manning didn’t congratulate Brees on the field after the Super Bowl. It’s only one black mark against an entire backdrop of positive ones, and it doesn’t negate all the good, but it’s still a black mark. And I’m bothered specifically because it’s an injury to the class label. But does that mean they’re really not classy? Or that they’re human and make mistakes, even bad ones, from time to time?

You seem hellbent on trying to divorce this notion of class from our attitudes towards the Colts. But there’s no reason to do so. There’s nothing wrong with it, and cynicism doesn’t make the few regressions – such as the Manning end-of-game issue I mentioned above – any easier to swallow, nor does it make games any more enjoyable. I don’t need the comfort of low expectations about sports teams to aid my enjoyment in watching them, or to buffer my disappointment if they fail at what I expect; I’m an adult, and I can handle disappointment. What I don’t want to see is Indy turn into Just Another Franchise. That would remove one of the reasons I’m such a big fan of them. Class is an element of what I enjoy about them and what I feel separates them from other teams. Like, say, Oakland (sorry, Raiders fans. But I fully believe I’m justified in that judgement.). It’s one that elevates them to a rare level that not all teams get to. But without that?… well, at that point, do I stay on due to mere regional loyalty like before? Or do I forsake them as a shadow of what once was?

Yes, class is important to me. No, there’s no reason for me to divorce it from my appreciation of the Colts. No amount of nitpickery about the timing of my development of that criteria for fandom, nor any argument regarding its importance to other players changes that. Nor do either separate the label from the team. I have an objective case that the term is fairly applied outside my own personal feelings. They start with the working attitude of players like Manning and Wayne (it speaks to an element of class I haven’t yet touched upon: Dignity, high personal standards for accomplishment in their profession), move on to the notion of generosity by granting second chances (giving Big Ed another chance), yet holding him to a standard (cutting Big Ed when he blew that chance) and pass through other acts I don’t care to detail here. But there is one single act that deserves mention, specifically because it touched off this whole debate: Lilja’s bonus. You can argue that it negatively impacts the Colts, and I’d agree. You can argue that he fulfilled his contract and didn’t have it coming, and I’d agree. But how does any of that translate to not being classy? It only is an act you disagree with. And that’s not sufficient reason to call it something else.