Theories on why Lilja was really cut
by BigBlueShoe on Mar 9, 2010 9:00 AM EST
in Colts Analysis
61 comments
It's in my nature never to take things at face value, especially when they don't seem to make any logical sense. Yesterday, the Colts cut their second best offensive lineman, Ryan Lilja. At first, the reasons were very puzzling. Then, Mike Chappell at the Indy Star got this quote from Lilja's agent:
"[The Colts] said they want to go bigger, and they let him go,’’ Domann said. "Ryan was disappointed, but I know he’ll land on his feet.’’
Bigger. OK, on the surface, this seems to suggest that new Offensive Line Coach Pete Metzelaars has a very different take on how this line should be constructed compared to his well-respected predecessor, Howard Mudd. Mudd preferred players who were smaller, quicker, and used superior technique to beat opponents. The premium was on pass blocking, protecting the franchise that is Peyton Manning. Guys like Ryan Lilja (6'2, 290 pounds) fit that mold and excelled greatly in the system Mudd used for 11 years in Indy.
However, with the recent signing of another former-Chiefs guard (Lilja was once cut by the Chiefs in 2003) Andy Alleman, I guess the writing was on the wall that the Colts were shifting their philosophy. Alleman is 6'4, 310 pounds. While it only makes sense for a new position coach to want to put his stamp on his coaching area, I am a firm believer that one does not cut off one's own nose in order to facilitate cosmetic change. I cite the Packers moronic decision to switch to a 3-4 defense in 2009, thus negating the effectiveness of their best pass rusher, Aaron Kampman. The Packers defense gave up 45 points and 531 yards of offense to the Cardinals in the playoffs, and lost in the first round. Now, Kampman has signed with the Jaguars and the Packers don't have anyone who can sack the QB.
While I totally understand the intent behind "going bigger" at the guard spots, cutting your best guard, when there is clearly no better alternative on the present roster, doesn't make a whole lot of friggin sense. There has to be something else at play here, and I have a few theories as to what.
One reason we can dismiss is money. Lilja would have made a base salary of $3.055 million in 2010, and the Colts actually paid him a $1.7 million roster bonus before terminating his contract. That's a very classy move on the Colts part, and it speaks volumes of how the feel about Lilja. $3.055 million is not breaking the bank for someone like Lilja, especially in an uncapped year. So, his contract wasn't the reason.
So, if it wasn't money, and it wasn't because they felt he was some kind of malcontent, what was it?
18to88 offers a few ideas:
- Indy is looking for a new left tackle and wants to move Charlie Johnson back inside. This is a move you only make if you already have a bead on someone. CJ plays at 305 lbs to Lilja's 290. The Colts clearly think that $3 million is too much to pay for a back up guard. It's hard to argue with that. Lilja would have been one of the top 15 highest paid Colts, and you can't lay out that kind of money for a guy who isn't starting and doesn't play an impact position.
- The Colts inability to pick up short yardage in key situations the past two seasons is something that won't be tolerated again. Clearly, the Colts think that Caldwell made the right call to run at the end of the first half, but the line failed. Frankly, I think that's insane logic, but the club is clearly trying to upgrade the run blocking. If the line had done their job, Caldwell would still have been wrong, but I wouldn't be able to complain about it as much.
- If Indy can survive a full season with CJ at left tackle, the pass pro will be fine no matter who plays up front. We've noted recently that sacks have more to do with the quarterback than the line. Therefore, the best measure of an offensive line is the run game. Indy's sucks. They might as well try to go bigger and move bodies off the line because Manning isn't going to get hit no matter who is out there. That's an exaggeration, but there is something to it.
All interesting theories, though I think Deshawn Zombie is incorrect in his assessment of Caldwell's 3rd-and-one call. If the Colts convert that and go on to score a field goal before halftime, Caldwell's decision is most certainly not "still wrong." If anything, 3rd-and-one doesn't matter, no matter what the results of that play were. The Colts defense still likely struggles to stop the Saints in the second half due in part to Dwight Freeney's ankle injury, and they still lose to them 31-20, or something like that.
When plays are executed well, coaches are "correct." When they aren't executed well, people second-guess the coaching decision. If the Saints do not recover the second half onside kick, Sean Payton is likely the goat of the game and goes into the off-season with serious questions about his judgment. If Matt Stover nails that 51-yarder (as he was doing in pre-game warm-ups), Caldwell's decision was "correct" to have him attempt one in the fourth quarter when it was pretty clear that any kind of points at that time were paramount.
Welcome to life in the NFL. Results are everything.
Back to Lilja, another theory is he might not have gotten along with Metzelaars when Metzelaars was the assistant line coach. Now that Metzelaars is the big boss of the line, Lilja needed to go. Again, I have no sources to back that up, but it makes a helluva lot more sense than just cutting your best guard because he doesn't "fit" your new coaching philosophy.
The only other idea that I can come up with, and this follows point #1 that DZ made, is that something is up.
Getting rid of Lilja and not having some kind of plan would be incompetence on Polian's part. For obvious reasons, I don't think Bill Polian is incompetent when it comes to building great teams. By making this move, I'm inclined to think that the Colts have a player targeted that they will either draft, trade up for, or sign to a tender in free agency. The player EVERYONE here keeps talking about is Jared Gaither, the gi-normous left tackle for the Ravens. Gaither has a first round tender from the Ravens. The Colts could sign him to an offer sheet, surrender their #31 overall pick to the Ravens, and lock-up a 6'9, 340 pound tackle that most certainly fits the team's new philosophy of "getting bigger."
Hopefully, we will see something happen soon that makes us all go "Ohhhhhhhhhh, THAT'S why they cut Lilja," because right now I'm not seeing it. Currently, we have Jaimie Thomas, Kyle DeVan, Mike Pollak, Jamey Richard, and Alleman on the roster to play guard.
None are the caliber of Ryan Lilja.
0 recs |
61 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
andy allman....
the saints drafted andy, while he looks the part, he had a rough time run blocking, and pass protecting . the old phrase “looks like tarsan, plays like jane” applied. maybe he’s improved?
No
He’s not any good.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
-Mark Twain
Thinking the same thing...
"If me and King Kong went into an alley, only one of us would come out. And it wouldn't be the monkey."
"I don't really trust a sane person."
"I never met a man I didn't want to fight." The one and only Lyle Alzado
All of the above
It’s definitely about money to some extent. If you can replace a guy who makes 3m with someone who makes less (Jamey Richard, perhaps, or a new draft pick, Alleman, etc), you give it a shot. If you plan to pay Gaither, you free up some cash to do it. Clearly they have a plan. We don’t know it yet, but money definitely has a lot to do with it too. It’s not a salary dump, but it’s not 100% a performance thing either.
Mock drafts are stupid and pointless.
Finally
I’m glad someone pointed this out. I do not understand why people see “They paid the roster bonus” and then think, oh so it isn’t about money. Or think that an uncapped year means “Hey we should just pay whatever”.
Jim Irsay does not have another business. His money comes from the Colts, he is not a hobbyist like some of the other owners, where owning the team is a prestige thing. He must make every decision with an eye to the business.
Furthermore, another part of the current negotiations going on is how the ownership revenue sharing is going to work. For a guy who makes his cash from a small market team without a Steelers/Packers national following that has to be somewhat concerning.
Now unlike his father, Jim seems to understand that paying money to field a quality team will pay off in the end. So there is an easy explanation for this move that is money based. The roster bonus is paid and Lilja is cut in time to find new work so that future restructures like the one he took are still legitimate. Then Lilja gets replaced with a guy that makes half or a third of what he does, but is better than half as good.
Then Jim can take that extra money, pay other players, rehire some of the folks he let go last year, or hell buy some more vintage guitars. Either way, it is always about money capped year or not.
and..... pay Peyton
’cause a lot of these moves have got to be with an eye toward that
How can you not love a team that does this?
A little confusing...
I think most of us agree that CJ would be better inside at guard. Even so, he is a servicable LT in a pinch. By cutting Lilja who was a solid LG, it would seem to take away a few of your options. It either pegs CJ to the LG spot forcing you to find a LT or it means that they think they already have a LG on the roster (Ugoh? Allenman?) Perhaps Lilja wasn’t worth his $3 million price tag, but unless you have another starting caliber lineman waiting in the wings… it seems that the timing was less than ideal.
One thing I've been considering...
Could they possibly be considering re-inserting Ugoh back in at LT? Or if not there, possibly anywhere else on the line? It may be a little overly optimistic, but it would make sense if they then kicked CJ inside and then drafted Pouncey at #31. However, if I remember right, CJ was still pretty mediocre in 2008 at guard. And the chances that Ugoh has finally take the leap forward aren’t too likely.
But anyway, I’m just throwing out possible ideas. As of right now, it’s a tough mystery to solve.
CJ and our tackles
Maybe the Colts feel Johnson is not a huge downgrade to Lilja at LG and have decided to roll with him as the starter, thinking his weight difference makes any talent downgrade negligible. Then at RG they perhaps plan on coming to camp with DeVan fighting with Pollack and either Diem or Ugoh for that position. This would make sense with all the “Colts need a left tackle” and “Colts want Gaither” sentiment. For all of the reasons mentioned, it seems like there’s a long-term plan that will slowly start to unfold the closer we get to draft time.
For all his faults, Mudd did a very good job creating a line that was full of versatile linemen. This frees up the Colts to draft the best available LINEMAN, rather than the best available LEFT TACKLE come draft day. For instance, if they want Maurkice Pouncey as the eventual successor to Jeff Saturday (something they should be looking into pronto) they could take him and let him compete for either the RG or RT positions, since he has experience at both. Let’s say he wins the RT job over Diem. Then Diem could move back inside to RG (where he’s played before, and wouldn’t be as exposed as he is on the edge). You’re still probably stuck with CJ at LT unless you can get Gaither or draft a guy in the second like Roger Saffold, but the line is improved, and bigger overall, without sacrificing much.
Or let’s say they get a guy like Gaither, but instead of meeting his tender they trade like a 3rd and 5th for him. Then that’d free them up to take a pass rusher (cough…Brandon Graham…cough) in the first and a RT in the second (like Veldheer or Kyle Calloway). All of a sudden they’ve got the two “tackles of the future” with guys in the rotation who have experience at either tackle position, and time at guard. Ugoh as a backup LT, Pollack and Devan as backup guards, Diem at a starting spot and CJ at a starting spot (both of whom could play tackle in a pinch…as they did all last year).
Either way you look at it there’s tons of possibilities. It’s a fairly deep draft for o-linemen and there’s no reason to panic. But it is daunting that the Colts suddenly need help at nearly every line position (center included, given Saturday’s age).
"You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?"
Come visit www.thefantasyninjas.com
If we grab Gaither it will be for the 1st round pick. Ravens wouldn’t let him go for anything less. I do really like the idea of Kyle Calloway though. He seems to fit the bill for a starting RT. While there is a chance he could fall to us in the 3rd round, I would go ahead and pull the trigger in the 2nd. After the first two rounds if your line looks like:
LT: Gaither
LG: Johnson
C: Saturday
RG: ????
RT: Calloway
I think a lot of us sleep better that night.
by invisibulman on Mar 9, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Moronic????
My brother, who is a colts fan, forwarded me this article after seeing the comments made about the Packers switch to the 3-4. Going into the season there was plenty of concern about the switch and especially with Kampman making the switch. So if this article were written before the season, I might be OK with calling out the Packers for making the switch. But it became apparent after you called the move “moronic” that you hadn’t watched many Packers games the past two seasons. In 2008, the defense was horrible. It couldn’t get any pressure on the QB at all. This is why they made the switch. Something had to be done. There was hope that Kampman would eventually be able to play OLB, and many inside the organization as well as Kampman himself, said he was making good strides before he got hurt. Is he better suited in the 4-3? Absolutely. But I have yet to talk to a Packer fan that is ticked off because we lost him after switching. All are sad to see him go, but after watching the swarming defense that Capers brought, all were happy with the end result of the 3-4.
As far as the Cardinals game (heck I’ll even toss in the Steelers game which was probably worse). That was more a product of the injury to Al Harris and a lack of depth at CB than anything else. Yet in that Steelers game the packers had 5 sacks. Which brings me to the “Packers don’t have anyone who can sack the QB” comment. In his rookie season, Clay Matthews Jr. had more sacks (10) than all but two of Kampmans eight seasons with the Packers. Meanwhile, Brad Jones started less than half of the Packers games and was on pace to have almost as many sacks as Kampman had in 2008, again while in the 4-3.
Will Packer fans miss Aaron Kampman? Absolutely. But when the dust settled on the 2009 season, most packer fans were pretty happy with the switch to the 3-4, even if we did end up losing a class act in Kampman.
Moronic?!?!?!?!
Yes, moronic
In the three biggest games of the season (two against Minny and playoff game against Arizona) the Packers surrendered 30, 38, and 44. If “most Packers fans” are happy with that, then most Packers fans have low expectations.
The issue with the Packers in those games was their inability to pressure the quarterback, and last I checked Al Harris wasn’t a pass rusher. When you switch your defensive scheme around, and that switch negates the effectiveness of your best pass rusher (Kampman), the decision to make the switch was moronic. Now, with Kampman gone, the pass rush is even less effective.
SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account so you can post a FanPost, make a FanShot, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.
Don't agree here BBS..
but who care…this is about the Colts.
"If me and King Kong went into an alley, only one of us would come out. And it wouldn't be the monkey."
"I don't really trust a sane person."
"I never met a man I didn't want to fight." The one and only Lyle Alzado
How many?
How many Packer games did you watch in 2008? You want to talk about lack of pressure look no further. And remember, this was the first year in the 3-4….it was a transition year. Nobody expected this defense to be world beaters. Yet they ranked 2nd in total yrds per game, 5th in passing yrds a game, 1st in rushing yrds a game, 7th in scoring. In 2008..20th in total yrds, 12th in passing, 26th in rushing and 22nd in scoring. Oh and by the way…they ranked 11th in sacks in 2009 while 25th in 2008. Kampman was the Packers best player in the 4-3. But numbers don’t lie, the 4-3 wasn’t working. So they switched to the 3-4, drafted two guys that fit the new scheme great, and all of the sudden you have a rookie putting up better numbers in the 3-4 than Kampman put up the previous year in the 4-3. How is that less effective?!?!?!
In both of the Vikings games we had a starting safety out, which once again exposed a huge whole of depth. If you watched those games, with either Collins or Bigby out, Capers obviously felt like he couldn’t bring the same pressure that he brought in the first game or two. When both of them were back healthy, and Matthews was named the starter, you saw a LOT more pressure being put on the QB. But then in one game you lose not only Kampman, but also Harris. From that point on they were still able to get pressure on the QB. But when you play teams that have 3 or 4 good WR (i.e. the Cardinals) and you are down a starting CB leaving you with little to no good replacement, you become very vulnerable to the short passes (i.e. the playoff game). And with the short passes, pressure becomes harder to come by. Its a lot harder to get pressure when a QB is taking two step drops and the ball is out then when he’s taking three or four.
Again, everybody was questioning the move before the season. It was a bold move to say the least. McCarthy was on the hot seat, and making a move that drastic and one that usually takes a good year or two to transition was very puzzling. But when all was said and done…numbers don’t lie.
Go write a thread on your site - Don't try and take this one over for one little note in a totally unrelated article!
Bob Sanders is starting to make me rethink my SBNation ID!
by SupermanWearsBobSander'sPJs on Mar 9, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
meh - let him
BBS opened it up by including it, if even a side note
How can you not love a team that does this?
yeah, paragraphs would help
but side discussions are good things.
Mock drafts are stupid and pointless.
Good side discussions are good
and bad side discussions are bad
From this, we can learn that good is good and bad is bad.
Careful what you wish for... a government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take everything you have.
@packncards
Good points. The Packers switched systems, and every realistic person expected an adjustment period the first year. There was the hope that Kampman would work out in the 3-4, but he proved a bit expendable. Matthews was brilliant, Jones looked good, and the defensive scheme switch is still looking smart to me. I think the Packers are putting together something great, and I have high hopes that this will be proven this year. Green Bay is and has been my second favorite NFL team, and I think the future is bright.
As far as switching schemes, the Colts did it when we acquired Dungy, and we had to go through the same adjustments. The price everyone pays for switching is rendering earlier selected players as expendable now, but sometimes that’s a good idea in the long run. I applaud the switch by the Packers, and I expect it will begin to yield even better fruit this upcoming season.
by coltsfanawalt on Mar 9, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
Yup, most Packers fans had realistic expectations
No one expected a brand new defense to be a world beater. To expect that is truely “moronic.” What their defense was, however, was one of the best in the NFL through the second half of the regular season. And need I remind you that the Colts gave up 31 points in the Super Bowl, 31 points to the Jags and 34 points to the Patriots. Who are we to ridicule other defense as “moronic.”
Green Bay’s defense was second only to the Jets in Total Defense and 7th in points allowed while we were 8th. Their defense made monumental strides compared to where they were last year. Trying to charecterize that move as “moronic” is simply uneducated.
I would agree, however, that it was “moronic” to drop AK into pass coverage instead of assigning him more pass-rush duties. In the end, though, Kampman simply didn’t fit that style of defense. The REST of the defense adapted very well and performed outstanding compared to what they were doing the year before. If they make that same kind of progress again in the second year of the new system their D will be a force to be reckoned with.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on Mar 9, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Jamey Richard
I think Jamey Richard is the front runner for the LG since he was the official backup to Ryan Lilja, he was playing well his rookie year but they could not use him since Lilja came back and he could play either backup center or backup left guard. It is not easy to move a left guard to right guard, like going from driving on the right side of the road in the US to the left side of the road in other countries, it takes a lot of time to get used to. So they decided to keep him at LG and I think he is the front runner for the LG position, contrary to what people think.
And the thing with Ugoh has never been about talent, it is about his head, work ethic and consistency which is not going to change based on where he plays in the O-line.
That makes sense
Usually when Polian lets a veteran go, the Colts already have someone who they think can step up and replace him. They may also have plans to “go big” with a new guard or to move Johnson inside, but they probably have confidence that Richard at least be comparable to Lilja if the new draft pick or free agent doesn’t pan out. Sort of like having Garcon made it feasible to let Marvin go, but they also added Collie.
Also note that Lilja’s status was pretty uncertain going into last season. I’m sure they had some sort of contingency plan if he hadn’t been able to come back.
by ex-Viking fan on Mar 9, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
I like Richard
he plays with a mean streak and that might help in the run game. He’s the only one of the three centers they took last year that has worked out at all, and I think his play early last year as a rookie has definitely earned him a real look, provided he hasn’t dropped off. I’m sure they definitely intend to give him a shot.
Mock drafts are stupid and pointless.
The ends do not justify the means
A decision has to be judged before the results are known. Otherwise you are just second guessing.
For instance, the decision to have Stover kick the field goal was a low percentage bad decision. Even had he hit the field goal, it would still have been a foolish risk.
Anyone can second guess.
18to88.com
Again, I disagree
The ends always justify the means in the NFL. The result is everything.
And decisions are not made based on past percentages. This is a people business, not Tecmo Bowl. If a coach sees his kicker making FGs in warm-ups and in practice, it is logical to assume that he can make the kick in a game. There’s nothing “wrong” or “incorrect” in assuming that.
Also, judging a decision BEFORE the results are in is unfair and foolish. That is second-guessing of the worst kind.
SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account so you can post a FanPost, make a FanShot, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.
So, it was OK for the Pats to cheat?
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha...OK" - Tom Brady
Stewie: "Lois, Lois, Mom, mom, mommy, mommy, momma, momma, ma, ma, mom, mom, mom."
Louis Griffin- "WHAT!?"
Stewie:- "Hi" (runs off, LOL)
by BlueMark1821 on Mar 9, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
This is a fundamental disagreement
The NFL is a league where there are dozens of variables on every play and luck is a major factor. All a coach can do is give his team the best odds possible. The three run calls to end the first half were a major strategic mistake because the best case possibility still leaves the Colts at the 11 yard line with 40 seconds to play in the half, and unlikely to score.
If the Colts treat that drive like a normal two minute drive, and they go run, pass, pass for instance, the worst case scenario is the SAME as the one they wound up with, only the Saints would have have had an extra time out, and likely still would only get a field goal out of it.
In other words, Caldwell needlessly cost his team a possession at a time when taking a ‘risk’ and throwing the ball really wouldn’t have hurt them even if it hadn’t worked out.
A coach can make the right call and still have it fail.
He can do something stupid and still have it work out.
You cannot judge things by results. That’s a trap that leads to bad decisions in the future.
18to88.com
by deshawn zombie on Mar 9, 2010 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
We also disagree...
about Payton. For instance, I thought his decision to go for it on fourth down at the end of the first half was brilliant. Even though the Saints didn’t convert, they put the Colts in a position to have to punt the ball back to NO deep in their own territory. They converted the field goal they would have gotten anyway. It was perfect coaching even though the actually fourth down failed.
The onside kick was a brilliant play. Onside kicks that are unexpected have about a 60% chance of working. He knew his team would have to ‘steal’ a possession from the Colts, so he took a chance. I honestly believe that had the Saints kicked off there, they would have lost that game. Indy goes up 17-6, Freeney gets his ankle taped and the whole second half changes. Obviously, it was lucky that they recovered the kick (since the Colts fell on it first), but even if it had failed it was still the smart call.
Sean Payton was brilliant in the Super Bowl, but not because his decisions worked. He was brilliant because he was giving his team a chance to win that they would not have had by playing it straight up.
18to88.com
by deshawn zombie on Mar 9, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Well said!
"If me and King Kong went into an alley, only one of us would come out. And it wouldn't be the monkey."
"I don't really trust a sane person."
"I never met a man I didn't want to fight." The one and only Lyle Alzado
So wrong...
You would be a terrible poker player BBS.
Also, for what its worth, this disagreement is at the heart of why I prefer DZ’s analysis to your “analysis”.
by jaredtaskin1 on Mar 9, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
how is it second guessing before the results are known? That’s the opposite of second guessing!
I agree that Stover gave them reason to think he might make that kick. But it was still a very low percentage call. I fault the preceding two plays as much as the decision to kick, as at that point it was a crappy situation all three ways. Punting sucks, kicking sucks, and going for 4th and 11 sucks. So Caldwell was backed into a corner. But I do know when Stover went in, I was upset because I knew it meant good field position for the Saints. Noone in the stadium expected him to make that.
Not an egregious mistake, but something most of us saw coming and didn’t like even before it happened.
Mock drafts are stupid and pointless.
Caldwell was wrong but not for calling a run play......
he was wrong for taking the ability to call plays at the line away from Manning during that drive. Dance with the one that brought you.
Question
Do you think Peyton disagreed with that call?
SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account so you can post a FanPost, make a FanShot, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.
Hmm, who knows.
Probably. I mean, he is an expert in 2-minute drives. And even they were at their own 2nd yard line, Peyton is still capable of taking you 60 yards from there. Maybe some penalties are on their way and suddendly you gain 15 yards. IMO, it was a bad call and Peyton was probably not to happy about it.
"We’re only going to score 17 points? haha...OK" - Tom Brady
Stewie: "Lois, Lois, Mom, mom, mommy, mommy, momma, momma, ma, ma, mom, mom, mom."
Louis Griffin- "WHAT!?"
Stewie:- "Hi" (runs off, LOL)
by BlueMark1821 on Mar 9, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
Suprised but not shocked.
There were probably a few reasons as to why Lilja was cut. After the coaches + Polian reviewed the tape for the year Lilja didn’t grade out as high as most fans thought. Most fans seem to think he was the second best lineman behind Saturday, I disagree; the guard play was the weak link on the line all year. They were getting manhandled on running plays. Yes there pass blocking was ok, but that has as much to do with Manning’s ability to get rid of the ball, and Addai’s ability to pick up the blitz. The Guards on both sides were having trouble run blocking; they were also getting overpowered by bigger D-linemen on a regular basis.
CJ was the 2nd best lineman behind Saturday. CJ has improved immensely over the past few years. He is a former TE that has improved technique, gotten bigger, stronger and better every year. As a former TE he already had the range to play LT now he has the size and strength to go with it. I think CJ will be a LT for at least the next few years. The only way they find any one better at LT than CJ, through the draft, is if they trade up into the first round and get one of the top guys, otherwise it’s going to 2nd or 3rd draft pick and he will need a few years at Guard or RT before he is ready for LT.
Getting bigger is the other reason, it’s not just getting bigger; you also have to get better. Starting last year in the draft the prospects at guard got noticeably bigger. In the 7th round they drafted 330lbs Jamie Thomas and signed another 330 pound giant as a UDFA neither contributed this year, those guys were bigger just not better than what they already had. It shows that the Colts are interested in getting bigger on the interior of the line. I think this year they will draft a couple more +310 pound guards, in the early and mid rounds.
Jamie Richard is not the answer at LG he is not any bigger than Lilja, if they thought he had starting potential than he would have been moved over to RG and compete with Pollack for that starting job, like they used to move CJ all over the place before they finally put him at LT.
This is one move, that is surprising, but I’m not worried about at all, I know Bill Polian already has a plan in place.
Defense is more important than breathing.
I agree about CJ
It is not wise to play musical chairs for an O-line that had a 4th quarter lead in the SB, IMO. A few tweaks, just like we did with the D-line and defensive pressure to our system will do.
CJ, Saturday and Diem need to still remain for the purposes of stability and Manning’s comfort that he can trust them in a no huddle situation. The New Orleans Saints basically showed that you can get adequate pass protection with bigger guards plus holding calls are rarely getting called on those bigger guards, so if you can’t beat them, join them.
The right guard, I have a feeling will be a competition between Jaimie Thomas and Kyle DeVan still, our right side did have better runs once Pollak was replaced. I do agree that CJ will continue to protect Peyton, Polian would not risk having a rookie there. So, chances are, we draft an OG, and there are several of them in this year’s draft. We can always draft a Tony Washington of Abilene Christian at the end of the 3rd round for an LT prospect down the road but just not now. I do like guard prospects like Maurkice Pouncey, Vladimir Ducasse (he can play RG and RT), and someone few people mention – Jon Jerry of Ole Miss, I like him too. But of course if Saffold is there for our 2nd round pick, it will be hard to pass up on him.
Polian loves the Big Ten and the SEC for a lot of draft picks – look at who has been assembled – Manning, Addai, Gonzalez, Sanders, Clark, Powers, Hayden, Jackson, Hart etc. :-).
Here is my number one issue...
Why not trade him? Surely we could have received at least a 5th round pick for him!
Bob Sanders is starting to make me rethink my SBNation ID!
by SupermanWearsBobSander'sPJs on Mar 9, 2010 1:11 PM EST reply actions
I'm not so sure about that
And please stop calling me Shirley!
How can you not love a team that does this?
It's pretty obvious:
They’re moving CJ to guard, Manning to LT and Addai is taking over qb while Brown becomes the #1 back. This would also make the yearning to sign Sproles justifiable.
Cass posted the 3 theories in the thread yesterday.
FYI
"Fans are the only ones who really care. There are no free-agent fans." - Dick Young
Movie Quote of the Week: "Why is a raven like a writing desk?!?"
WE WANT GAITHER!!!
If signing Alleman is a sign of changing philosophies
Would it be from going from good guards to crappy ones?
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
-Mark Twain
Lilja's health
Didn’t Lilja have repeated surgery on his knee(s)?
Maybe that slowed him down and affected his agility.
Maybe someone saw things in the game films that they didn’t like.
He’s not getting any younger either.
If his durablity is a concern for the future, I can see why they would let him go.
He missed a lot of time with injury.
I'm backing Polian on this
only if, like you said, in a few weeks or so we will all say, “That’s why.” After I was PISSED about benching Ugoh for Johnson and was ready to lose all faith in Polian, I then saw the results. “Ohhhhh….THAT’S why. Ugoh is a slow out of shape bust, and Johnson has gotten that much better.” So, as of now, I’m backing Polian. Our run blocking sucked, and although Lilja was not the weak link by any means, he didn’t exactly open up huge holes on the left side. As for pass blocking, as I stated in another post, credit Peyton more than the line for not getting sacked. He’s that good to know how to get rid of the ball in limited seconds.
But you’re right in saying that no one on the current roster is close to as effective as Lilja, including Alleman, who is not good. The obvious theory is that we are going to move Johnson back inside, a great move, and get bigger and better outside, a move we will have to wait on to judge. I’m all for Gaither, but drafting Brown or Williams would be just as fine by me. Yet, if no o-linemen is drafted in the first or signed/traded for in the offseason, then yeah…..um…..what. the. hell. Polian?
"A lot of times, Kenny, we have no idea what we're doing. But the DEFENSE doesn't know that we don't know what we're doing.....and that's next level." -Peyton Manning
i really hope you're not disappointed
when CJ starts at LT next fall.
Careful what you wish for... a government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take everything you have.
I wouldn't be
CJ did a respectable job and no one should be disappointed if mgt decided the job was his to lose. Yet, with his size, he is better suited for guard, and we would be better off drafting/signing a big LT.
You also sound pretty confident it is a done deal that he will be starting LT. You are in an extreme minority here, and I hope you’re not disappointed when that doesn’t happen.
"A lot of times, Kenny, we have no idea what we're doing. But the DEFENSE doesn't know that we don't know what we're doing.....and that's next level." -Peyton Manning
Nope, not at all.
I’d prefer to wake up tomorrow to the wonderful news that the Colts signed Gaither (or some other proven LT) overnight. I’d be content to watch the Colts draft a quality LT, whether they trade up or not, and have that rookie come in and earn that spot.
It’d be awesome to see all 4 OL positions (Saturday’s a lock) upgraded before the season starts.
I just don’t think it’s gonna happen.
But who knows? All this unexpected activity, this off-season, is proof n’Polian wasn’t kidding about being disappointed with the OL’s SB performance.
Careful what you wish for... a government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take everything you have.
I should also add
that along with all of our, “WHAT THE HELL?!?!?” responses when the guy we gave up a first round pick for (which could have been Chris Johnson) who is supposed to be our future star at left tackle is benched for an undersized utility lineman to protect our most coveted member’s blindside, we also all had similar responses when (a) we chose not to go d-line first round last year when that was our position of need supposedly and (b) we cut one of our supposed best d-linemen in Ed Johnson for non-drug related reasons. Our d-line was as good, if not better.
Not saying this will translate with Lilja, but moves like this proves that Polian knows what he is doing and we don’t. But seriously, though, he better have a good reason for this. I’m all for improving the line, and if cutting Lilja means we will get someone mgt feels is better, bring it on, but if he pulls a “next man up” on us and gives it to Richard or Pollak or somebody, I will be pretty furious.
"A lot of times, Kenny, we have no idea what we're doing. But the DEFENSE doesn't know that we don't know what we're doing.....and that's next level." -Peyton Manning
My immediate reaction
Was “WHAT THE HELL?!?!?”.
I still don’t understand it, but that is why I’m not running the team and I’m sure Polian has a well-thought out plan.
"It's the greatest job in the world until Peyton comes off the field and you think his thumb might be broken and there's three minutes left in the AFC Championship Game and you're down by three to New England and you haven't taken a snap all year. Yeah, it's a great job until that point." - Jim Sorgi
by gizzardfanny on Mar 10, 2010 6:27 AM EST up reply actions
he did say a few days after the SB
that Pollak would play a part… stay tuned
How can you not love a team that does this?
If that's true
and Pollak is given either guard position after the embarrassment he was last year, he’d better show something in training camp that makes everyone think he is a completely different player. 2009 Mike Pollak should not see the field ever. 2010 Mike Pollak…..well, I thought CJ was garbage in 2008, so who knows. Mike could work his tail off and come to camp looking like the player we thought he was when we used our first pick on him. But, like I said, there better be some offseason moves or draft picks used on some big front linemen, else I will not be happy. Pollak sure as hell is not better than Lilja.
"A lot of times, Kenny, we have no idea what we're doing. But the DEFENSE doesn't know that we don't know what we're doing.....and that's next level." -Peyton Manning
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Stampede Blue
Related FanShots on Stampede Blue
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
