The Colts Should Draft A New DE!!! Right?
by bamock on Apr 13, 2010 12:48 PM EDT
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A number of things jump out at Colts fans "in the know" regarding Defensive End in Indianapolis. First, it is easily one of the most important positions in a cover-2 defensive scheme, as players at this position hold the greatest level of responsibility in generating a pass rush. Second, injuries to our defensive ends over the past three seasons have severely limited the team's ability to continue generating pressure on opposing quarterbacks, and a lack of depth at the position leaves the Colts in a sensitive position. Third, with the release of Raheem Brock, the most experienced and dynamic of the Colts defensive lineman, along with the gradual aging of tandem Pro Bowlers Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis, infusing some young blood seems like an absolute certainty in the upcoming draft.
What will surprise many fans, even the most avid and informed, is that the Colts have done some scouting homework during the season that has landed them potential replacements and potentially a greater level of depth at the position than it has had in some time.
Two players have a great deal of potential in the defensive tackle/defensive end roll to not only replace Raheem Brock, but possibly push Keyunta Dawson off of the roster altogether.
via www.colts.com
The first player, John Gill, is someone the Colts showed interest in prior to the 2009 NFL Draft but could not acquire until well into the pre-season. Once acquired, Gill played both defensive tackle and defensive end in the final pre-season game and found his way onto the practice squad, where he would stay throughout the entire regular season. It seems clear that the Colts have are interested in his development and that he is a prospect to fill the hybrid defensive tackle-defensive end position vacated by Brock.
via www.canada.com
The second player is new to the Colts but not to professional football, having played the entire 2009 season in the CFL, earning the defensive player of the year award. As a defensive end for the Roughriders (former home of Kenton Keith), John Chick tallied 32 tackles, 11 sacks, forced two fumbles, and added two special teams tackles. At 6'4" Chick would fall in line with the Colts stated desire to get bigger on both lines but he is only listed at 248 pounds (a weight I find highly suspect when I look at him on tape). He is tall enough and aware enough to knock down passes, fast enough to turn the corner on tackles, strong enough to bull rush, and aware enough of the ball to work back inside. Don't be surprised if you hear more about him as training camp and pre-season roll around.
If you add to the mix defensive tackle Eric Foster, who spent some time outside during the year, J.D. Skolnitsky, who was added to the roster at the end of the season, and Mitch King (YOU DECIDE 2009), who will likely have the physical skills and prior experience to play inside and outside on the Colts defensive line... and you start to see the defensive end position in a different light.
Honestly, I started the off-season with the feelings that the Colts would use their first round pick to draft a defensive end, and liked Brandon Graham of Michigan to be the possible pick. Now, though, I feel like the position isn't as weak as I previously thought and feel that Polian and Company are in a position to pick BPA with the thirty-first pick and not worry about drastic consequences to depth along the defensive line.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors.
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Agree...
I don’t understand the big push for a DE this offseason. If you say to most teams, hey you’ve got two Pro-Bowlers at a position… do you consider it an area of need? They would probably laugh. I currently have the Colts taking CJ Wilson in the 4th round, but I can’t see a DE any earlier than that. The only reason it is a consideration at all is the overall lack of holes in this team. When Nickle Corner and Kick Reterner make a top 5 list of “biggest issues” you know your team is stacked.
well Raheem Brock was cut and he did play ~900 snaps last year
I think a Wootton, Carrington or Wilson type is very much in play, and I’d like to see a backup edge rusher too.
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
Just how deeply can your senses be wrong? With some VR goggles, a camera and a touch on the back researchers were able to overcome a person's sense of being inside their own body.
by shake n bake on Apr 13, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Same here.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Maybe I could use this service.
I think the push is from fans who still feel frustrated
from watching the 2nd half of the super bowl. Brees had enough time to make a jambalaya back there. A lot of people are saying we need corner depth, which we do, but who can cover a guy for as long as Brees had? Even if it’s just to rotate w/Freeney and Mathis, to keep them fresh and hopefully injury free, I would love another skilled pash rusher to throw into the mix. 1st round, 2nd round, both even. The situation w/the O line will work itself out the way it always has, with late round/undrafted prospects filling in.
Our lack of depth at DE
Has been the primary reason for 2 of our last 3 playoff losses.
"It's the greatest job in the world until Peyton comes off the field and you think his thumb might be broken and there's three minutes left in the AFC Championship Game and you're down by three to New England and you haven't taken a snap all year. Yeah, it's a great job until that point." - Jim Sorgi
by gizzardfanny on Apr 14, 2010 7:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Just a note
Each of the players you mentioned were either undrafted out of college, cut by their previous team in the offseason, or both.
I know BP has a history of finding diamonds in the rough, but there isn’t much proven talent at DE, aside from the starters.
by hoosierstudent on Apr 13, 2010 2:01 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Proven talent...
If by proven you mean, not in the NFL, which is the only reference for “proven” I could find as having any weight here… not a single player in the draft has proven a thing either. Each of the undrafted or previously waived players I discuss and you reference has 1) made it onto an NFL roster, 2) played in college (most at a pretty high level), and 3) some have won accolades playing professional football (albeit the CFL). In terms of who is and is not “proven” the lines get awfully gray very fast.
How many 1st round locks over the last 10 years have you never heard of since draft day? Diamonds in the rough, maybe, but getting a starting caliber player out of the draft is no cake walk. I’m just not sure whether I’d wager a lot of money that a first rounder (31st selected) player in the draft at the position is more likely to fill our need (3rd string DE at most) better than the players I listed (based upon what they’ve “proven”).
I’m not intending to be snarky, I’m just saying. “Proven” is awfully subjective and often not necessarily illustrative of what a player’s value for a particular team.
Note: Kyle DeVan, Jeff Saturday, Charlie Johnson, Gary Brackett, Daniel Muir, Antonio Johnson, Jacob Lacey, Melvin Bullitt, Antoine Bethea, Eric Foster. Compare those players to “proven” players like: Fili Moala, Mike Hart, Tony Ugoh, Mike Pollack, etc.
Thanks to MarkFive05 I have a new theme video that I hope you all will remember me by: BAM BAM
Note: Kyle DeVan, Jeff Saturday, Charlie Johnson, Gary Brackett, Daniel Muir, Antonio Johnson, Jacob Lacey, Melvin Bullitt, Antoine Bethea, Eric Foster. Compare those players to "proven" players like: Fili Moala, Mike Hart, Tony Ugoh, Mike Pollack, etc.
Come on, you know how badly biased that sampling is. No one is denying that good players can be found late in the draft, undrafted or off the street, but the reason teams spend high picks on players is because their odds are better. I doubt you are denying that a 1st round pick isn’t more likely to succeed than a 7th rounder.
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
Just how deeply can your senses be wrong? With some VR goggles, a camera and a touch on the back researchers were able to overcome a person's sense of being inside their own body.
by shake n bake on Apr 13, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
One other comment...
I think trying to determine a players likelihood of success in the NFL based on what round they’re drafted is also rather arbitrary and would probably prove relatively unreliable. I’m not saying that the bulk of the superstars in the NFL don’t come out of the first round. It is likely that by percent the first round would prove to be the most fruitful in future stardom in the NFL.
That said, it’s less about round and more about pick. The value of a 31st pick (1st Round) is not even close to the value of a 5th pick in the draft. The difference in value or likelihood of stardom in the NFL between picks 31-100 would likely be difficult to assess. Simply, a players likelihood of success has much more to do with an that individual’s talent/skill/upside and their fit in the team’s system than it does with what round or what number the player is picked. If Chick fits our system, has been successful and shows the skills and upside of a any DE drafted in the first few rounds of the draft, I am not going to devalue Chick because he has proven less.
By the way, I’m relatively certain Polian looks it somewhat similar to how I look at it and much less like… “the first round is where we will find our contributors in each draft.” Otherwise, spending the time and effort to keep our own scouting staff, picking up TONS of “unproven” low-round and undrafted players and turning them into staples of our offense/defense wouldn’t be so prevalent.
It can be argued that my sample is biased… that’s fine. My sample is also taken from players currently on the roster and is based in fact. Does my sample tell the whole story for the draft, for our team historically? Of course not. Does it illustrate my point? I think so.
Thanks to MarkFive05 I have a new theme video that I hope you all will remember me by: BAM BAM
re:sample
I was just saying if you wanted to do it fairly the 2nd group would include all the early round success currently on the Colts roster.
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
Just how deeply can your senses be wrong? With some VR goggles, a camera and a touch on the back researchers were able to overcome a person's sense of being inside their own body.
by shake n bake on Apr 13, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Chick is the answer they want
I don’t think you go around signing the defensive player of the year if you don’t have a roster spot for him. They didn’t sign him as a third backup; they’re gonna give him time on the field.
The CFL ain’t no chump league. Kenton Keith was bollocks but he wasn’t a player of the year either.
KK was a decent runner,
but the man couldn’t catch a cold…
Dun nuh nuh nuhhhh!!!! Super Mathis
by hoosier in sodak on Apr 13, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Sometimes, I wish he did.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Maybe I could use this service.
I agree
I always though that DE was not a need. Considering Colts need to fill positions urgently at Safety, CB, TE & OL
Urgent...
Interesting positions listed. I have a hard time finding a great deal of “urgency” at any of those positions but I’ll discuss why later.
Thanks to MarkFive05 I have a new theme video that I hope you all will remember me by: BAM BAM
I'd call one T/G spot urgent. They have 4 returning starters, Ugoh and some reserves who haven't shown anything yet.
everything else could be ignored without being addressed if the value was better elsewhere.
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
Just how deeply can your senses be wrong? With some VR goggles, a camera and a touch on the back researchers were able to overcome a person's sense of being inside their own body.
by shake n bake on Apr 13, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Why do you list safety?
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Maybe I could use this service.
I don't know that I would call safety urgent...
but it’s a safe assumption that Sanders will be hurt next year. Bullitt is only average and behind him we have absolutely nothing. I think we could stand to upgrade at Safety in this draft. There is a pretty strong class for it if they are so inclined.
by invisibulman on Apr 13, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I would put Bullitt above average.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Maybe I could use this service.
It might be a strong word. What I mean is
I am not going to hold out hope that sanders is going to play a full season this year. With both bethea and bullit. Haveing silva as the backup does not fill be with confidence. Aside from Hayden, Powers and Lacey there is no depth which means if one of them goes down who’s going to back them up. On top of that who else will then play nickel. Aside from Clark who else is a can manning count on, on top of that have a blocking TE will improve the running game. I have never see anything positive happing when they use 2 TE formations. And finally everyone agrees the OL is a need
good post Bamock
I have been beating the same drum since the season ended. I really thought that Brock leaving was proof that we were going after a DE. I have been saying we need DE and CB help. After reading this post I’m not as sold on the DE need, But, CB is still a top priority in my eyes. Before this post I thought we needed in order of necessity;1)CB 2) DE and 3) OL. Now, I’m thinking; 1)CB 2) OL and 3) DE. If we can draft a young DE in the 5th or 6th round, it will be good enough in my eyes.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Ah yes, John Gill.
My personal vote for worst player on the roster last season. My entire memory of him consists of getting literally run over by ballcarriers. I don’t expect anything out of him.
As for Chick, I would consider him a bonus. I still want the position (at least a Brock-type) addressed in the draft, but if Chick can develop too, then all the better.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Maybe I could use this service.
Awesome.
How awful work would be if I didn’t have this in my life.
Love the DE write-up. And I think both arguements are right – Chick and King will get PT and be valuable, and we’ll pickup a later round DE.
TE does not = a need, in my opinion. Tamme and Santi are both productive (when healty) and Petrowski is the answer as a better blocking TE.
“When Nickle Corner and Kick Reterner make a top 5 list of "biggest issues" you know your team is stacked.” – Best Line Ever. How spoiled we are…
I see us going BPA Round 1 and trying to muster CB A. Spievey shortly after, given NaPolian’s affinity for Iowa/Big Ten studs.
Peace.
by I'm Not Alone, I'm Just Blue on Apr 13, 2010 4:03 PM EDT reply actions
Colts have never gone BPA in the first round
"Not stoppin' there, that's not in store. Push it to the limit, we want more."
-Gordon Hayward a.k.a. G-Time
by Colts Homer on Apr 13, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is true.
There is always at least some need mixed in.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Maybe I could use this service.
You forget...
…last year?
Donald Brown. Consensus BPA.
Always need mixed in is a given.
by I'm Not Alone, I'm Just Blue on Apr 13, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Whoa whoa whoa...
Brown wasn’t even the consensus best RB available when the Colts took him last year. Certainly not the BPA.
by invisibulman on Apr 13, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Since when?
Nobody considered him the BPA at that point, and we needed a backup to Addai at that point with Rhodes recently gone.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Maybe I could use this service.
Really?
Charlie Casserly, for one, amongst many. Had us taking Brown the whole way. Comment in the ‘Comments’ portion of his Mock was ‘Best Player Available.’
What RB was considered better? Moreno was gone and next after Downtown Donald Brown was Chris Wells (31) who was injured with a history of injuries, then L McCoy (53), then S Greene (65). Dude led the nation in rushing…at UConn, no less. I think you’re giving weight to last season stats, not pre-draft rankings.
Or are you guys are just F*in with me…
Quit it.
by I'm Not Alone, I'm Just Blue on Apr 13, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not talking about best running back available.
I’m talking about best player available.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Maybe I could use this service.
I think
Casserly is just about the only person I can think of that’s actually worth listening to when it comes to evaluating which players a team would be most interested in. Not necessarily as someone that’s always right, but as someone who’s spent half a lifetime in the NFL.
Anonymity breeds inhumanity. In simpler terms, don't be a troll.
Wasn't Dallas Clark considered the best player available at the time?
I’m going off memory so forgive me. But, I remember the Mel Kiper and ESPN being completely surprised by the pick. I understand, TE was a mild need at the time. But the same year, everyone thought we needed a LB and Boss Bailey, E. J. Henderson and Nick Barnett were available.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Actually
We hardly ever go (consensus) BPA.
"It's the greatest job in the world until Peyton comes off the field and you think his thumb might be broken and there's three minutes left in the AFC Championship Game and you're down by three to New England and you haven't taken a snap all year. Yeah, it's a great job until that point." - Jim Sorgi
by gizzardfanny on Apr 14, 2010 7:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Never sounds more accurate
Because someone is seriously retarded if they think Joseph Addai was a BPA pick that just happened to be at a major position of need. Same thing with Marlin Jackson or Anthony Gonzalez.
"What the Helen of Troy is that?
Did I hear you say my rhymes is wack?"
-Beastie Boys, "Triple Trouble"
For some reason I missed the post I replied to
And just skipped to Cass’ post.
I fail.
"It's the greatest job in the world until Peyton comes off the field and you think his thumb might be broken and there's three minutes left in the AFC Championship Game and you're down by three to New England and you haven't taken a snap all year. Yeah, it's a great job until that point." - Jim Sorgi
by gizzardfanny on Apr 15, 2010 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
This is a huge "according to you" statement.
The truth of the matter is, none of us have a remote fucking clue who the BPA is on the Colts’ big board. That goes equally for the professional prognosticators. As we’ve seen, time and again, the player our front office would consider the best available is often radically different from the consensus and, more often than not, other teams. I’m compelled once again to point to the analyses of last year’s draft: most every mock draft was drastically wrong, especially after the Raiders’ selection of DHB. And yet, our front office was right on target with all but two or three selections.
Furthermore, it’s not even a matter of “best player available;” it’s the best player for our team. Think of all the things that our star players are beyond their football skills, and it paints an even clearer picture.
Anonymity breeds inhumanity. In simpler terms, don't be a troll.
Well stated...
Last year, prior to draft time, I tried to alter the “BPA” mindset which I think can be confused and muddled when “consensus BPA” labels get thrown around. Consensus to who is the obvious question and renders the BPA label nearly meaningless. Instead, I suggested it be considered MVPA for our team. In other words, the “BPA” at our pick could arguably be a WR or RB without return experience or upside… one could say a QB is another example… would those players be MVPA when there is a player with nearly equal raw value on the board at the time (though “consensus” might suggest not quite as high) at CB, LB, DE, OL?
It’s very likely that there is a point where need and value meet on a curve and where those two meet will determine whether they’re MVPA for our team. I doubt it’s that scientific or that diagrams with points are in the Colts draft room on draft day, but I think it better illustrates the point than the vague, overused, and often meaningless “BPA” designation.
Thanks to MarkFive05 I have a new theme video that I hope you all will remember me by: BAM BAM
Gill?
I liked Baldwin more than Gill in the short time that they played. I know nothing about Chick though. Hopefully he plays like Cameron Wake did in Miami last season.
"Not stoppin' there, that's not in store. Push it to the limit, we want more."
-Gordon Hayward a.k.a. G-Time
Baldwin...
Great point. I managed to leave out another potential player in the mix of potentially filling Brock’s shoes. I agree, Baldwin looked good, I liked him. I look forward to seeing his development. Good catch.
Thanks to MarkFive05 I have a new theme video that I hope you all will remember me by: BAM BAM
Baldwin could be interesting.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Maybe I could use this service.
I've got a feeling
That he will beat out Dawson, but I may be putting too much stock into those two rest games.
"What the Helen of Troy is that?
Did I hear you say my rhymes is wack?"
-Beastie Boys, "Triple Trouble"
by Colts Homer on Apr 13, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Found interesting scouting report on John Chick
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/historical/1109425
One line stood out to me:
Chick is a classic ‘tweener with a blue-collar work ethic. He looked very impressive attacking the backfield with his added bulk in 2005 and has the sudden burst off the line that will generally beat a lethargic offensive tackle. He reminds me of the Colts’ Robert Mathis for his ability to play in a three-point or two-point stance, but has much better instincts and intelligence than Mathis
The funny thing is this guy was 265 lbs when he tried out for the NFL draft, now he is the CFL defensive MVP and weighs 248 lbs, very much like Mathis now. I am convinced that he is the situational pass rusher kind and not a run down DE.
John Gill has the bulk for being a run down DE. Plus, Eric Foster did play some DE at Rutgers, and he is bulky enough to being a run down DE as well, IMO. If I had to choose the obvious replacement to Brock, it is Eric Foster.
John Chick might have also been brought in as insurance should Mathis ask for too much money once he becomes an RFA (or UFA, not sure) after noting the fact how similar they are.
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