2010 NFL Draft: Rick Gosselin gives Colts a "meh" draft grade
by Brad Wells on Apr 25, 2010 2:36 PM EDT
in NFL Draft
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PrintColts drafts are boring for national media types. No trades. No flashy picks.
Because there are none of these, there's nothing really to talk about. Also, part of the reason media don't like to judge Bill Polian drafts is the fear some have in challenging a Polian pick, which speaks volumes as to the type of respect the Colts President generates. He might be a crotchety ass-wipe to just about everyone in the media (and several fans on his radio show), but he's a absolute genius when it comes to drafting quality players.
That said, one of the few national media types who is respected by teams is Rick Gosselin of the Dallas Morning News. Today, he released his grades of the 2010 draft.
After the jump, Gosselin suggests the Colts did not do very well in the 2010 NFL Draft.
GRADE: C
Hughes is a perfect fit in Indy's undersized speed pass-rush scheme, and he inexplicably fell to them at the end of the first round. Eldridge was the best-blocking tight end in this draft, and Angerer plays with anger against the run.
What's odd about the grade is that is doesn't not seem to match Gosselin's comments. A "C" grade, and everything written about that grade is positive? While Gosselin seems to be a good guy, I suspect he's a little scared to truthfully pontificate on why the Colts had a seemingly "meh" draft in his eyes. If he starts bashing picks (as I did) and those picks turn out to be good players, Gosselin loses.
Personally, I think this is weak on Gosselin's part. A "C" grade is a weak grade for a draft. Either clarify that weak grade with reasons why the team seemingly screwed up, or don't grade at all. If you are wrong about that "C" grade two years from now, fine. Who cares? There's nothing "wrong" about being wrong when you are evaluating draft grades from a media perspective. Their job is to be critical, and often they have to do this with little or no real information.
On the other side, Bill Polian (with his decades of experience and legions of professional scouts) has been wrong on second and third round players for four years now, and I don't think that has damaged his rep much. I also don't think he cares much what people think of his rep. He just does his thing, and if you don't like it you can go screw yourself.
Gosselin should have had a little of that kind of attitude in his write-up for the Colts if he is going to grade them with a "C" for the 2010 Draft.
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Yep...
If everyone and their brother thought these guys were A’s from the get-go Polian wouldn’t be the genius everyone knows him to be. Anyone can say “Everyone says this is the best guy so let’s pick him”, only Polian can see the potential that others can’t see. That’s what makes him special.
He has potential-seeking X-ray vision.
by peytonsurdaddy on Apr 25, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
a C is popular grade for the colts almost every year but when I read things like this I laugh hard at these Cs!
seems the general perception of not knowing a player can prompt a grade that is pretty much copied by all for the colts
for example…pat angerer
from mack brown, the coach of the texas longhorns
He was interviewed during the draft while Angerer was selected and talked about the Hawkeyes playing UT in the Alamo Bowl and said they were the most fundamental and sound team they have played. Spoke about the defense and said they played low with leverage and very hard effort. Very high praise for KF and his coaches from a well respected coach.
and then I read this…
Great evaluator of talent?
During a radio interview with Jeff Tedford, coach of Cal, he was asked if the Jaguars coaches or GM talked to him about Alualu. He said no one from the organization contacted him. If your going to invest millions in a player with your top pick, wouldn’t it be smart to talk to the players college coach?
I guess watching a few highlights on youtube is the definition of “doing their homework” these days.
youd think with millions involved your BIG REACH, the gm and or coach, and or scout would want to know just a little about him
yet I see mixed grades on jax. in fact Im seeing better grades for jax than the colts
thats absurd
Coming from the East Coast....
I don’t watch much Big 10. I get the SEC/ACC/Big East love fest and so I didn’t know much about the Hawkeyes D until I watched them dismantle the Triple Option of Georgia Tech in orange bowl. To see that game and watch how fundamentally good those LB’s were was amazing. Pat Angerer led his team in tackles with 10 tackles and thats amazing to consistently put yourself in the exact location to make tackles against a team that plays a triple option like that. He also had to be fundamentally smart to get his team in the right spots to be able to stop that team.
Team GOLD
as a buckeye fan
i concur. Iowa plays awesome fundamental sound football in the Big Ten. Most of their players are between 1-3 star recruits and Kirk Frentez gets the best of his players.
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
That guy is crazy.
He is totally off of my grades, which I think are the accurate ones.
C for Philly, they get at least a B+.
Jets should get a D at best. Wilson is OK, but they drafted 3 RBs in their last 7 picks and signed LT in the meantime. “Drafting” Cromartie doesn’t count.
A for the Pats, for drafting a lot of average guys?
…
average?
they got the best cb after haden was taken and got 2 1st round talents in the 2nd round and a 2nd round talent in the 4th round…also forced the panthers to give up a 2nd rd pick in the 2011 nfl for a 3rd round pick (89th overall).
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
No
McCourty wasn’t the best CB after Haden. Besides Gronkowski, who has first round talent from the 2nd rounders? Hernandez isn’t 2nd round talent in my eyes.
Making more picks also means, your players are less good, then the bests at the original position.
McCourty was the 2nd best CB taken in the draft after Haden
The Jests were ready to take him but the Pats picked him. Funny how they took CB Kyle Wilson 2 picks later.
McCoruty is good @ zone and man and is physical @ the LOS. He doesn’t bite on every route unlike overrated Ashante Samuel and is a great tackler and excellant @ ST. He had 7 or 8 blocked kicks/punts in his college career. Kyle Wilson will prob be a good cb but he reminds me of another Ashante Samuel…and I NEVER want another Samuel.
Spikes is a 1st rd talent who fell because of a bad 40 dash time and the fact that most team didn’t need a ILB. Look @ last yr’s draft…James Laurentites and Ray Magaluga (screwed up this name) were the top two rated ILB and projected 1st rounders. well in the 1st rd…no ILB were taken and they fell to the Rams and Bengals in the second rd. James was the only bright spot in the rams defense last year and Ray had a good year w. the Bengals before breaking his ankle.
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
It's so easy to do a better draft
When you have more than 10 picks year after year to spend, while the Colts usually get the bottom picks
Love learning, hate studying
i didn't say that
What i said was the our first rounder might be a starter (and maybe replace Darius Bulter 09 2nd rd pick as a starter) as the season progresses.
TE Gronk will be the starter in week one along with 3-4ILB Spikes and 5th round pick-Zoltan. I see Aaron Her. to be a starter as the season goes by..hopefully becomes our version of Dallas Clark.
the picks from the 6-7th rds will either be backups, STers, practice squad players or be cut.
The Pats had 12 picks and signed a bunch of UFA’s…thats makes up more than 25% of a NFL squad (53 players). I dont expect most of them to make the team.
Also i wasn’t impressed w. last year’s draft picks by the pats but you know what…by Septemenber 09’…all of them made the team.
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
don't forget
that they had to sacrifice some things earlier to accumulate those picks – letting go of free agents who might not have actually been past their prime, or trading out of rounds where better perceived talent was available. They are in an enviable position now, to be sure, but it wasn’t handed to them.
/needs a shower now
How can you not love a team that does this?
Who Cares?
Also, I’d like for someone to define “Reach” for me, in context of drafting. Reach is based on someone’s biased information, which may be totally wrong. Was Ghoulsten a reach for the Jets? So far, yes. But not the day he was picked.
Again, the only true way to grade a draft is how those players pan out and affect their team. How many years has Houston ‘outdrafted’ us?
There's absolutely no way to know
There is so much posturing going on that we have no idea how high other teams are on other players. The NFL draft is a poker game. There’s so much bluffing and misinformation being thrown around that nobody knows what to believe.
Did you see Holmgren getting interviewed when he said he wasn’t interested in Colt McCoy? How about Polian saying that he didn’t think there were any players left in the draft who could return both punts and kicks before drafting Ray Fisher in round 7?
by TrustInPolian on Apr 25, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course you can't know for sure, but
I think what you’re talking about has less and less impact as the draft goes into later rounds, when there’s less time for bluffing and misinformation and fewer players that would be worth such subterfuge.
I’m sure Holmgren is thrilled to get McCoy in the 3rd, but I doubt there are any GMs currently shaking their fists and screaming, “Damn you, Polian! You outfoxed us again!”
And FWIW, my definition of a “reach” is a player that almost assuredly could have been had a round or two later. Many people speculated the Raiders would take Bruce Campbell in the 1st round this year; that would have been a big, big reach. They ended up taking him in the 4th; that’s very good value.
Nothing's complicated if you understand it.
Check out this blog site called Black and Teal.
The Jags fans love this draft. Here are some of the quotes from their editor-in-chief about what the D-Lineman they drafted this year are going to do to us in 2010: " Think about Indianapolis Colts rotting offensive line… The quarterbacks in the AFC South are going down hard." I know the Colts O-Line isn’t very good but c’mon… oh well… I mean it has to be better than this:
"Pressure is something you feel if you don't know what the hell you're doing."-Peyton Manning
Of Kampman?
Only a fool wouldn’t be.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on Apr 25, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Kinda like Freeney after his injury?
Kampan’s lack of production last year had more to do with the Packers moving him to an OLB than it had to do with his injury.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on Apr 26, 2010 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Not at all.
They still have Jack from the river as coach, right?
"It's the greatest job in the world until Peyton comes off the field and you think his thumb might be broken and there's three minutes left in the AFC Championship Game and you're down by three to New England and you haven't taken a snap all year. Yeah, it's a great job until that point." - Jim Sorgi
by gizzardfanny on Apr 26, 2010 4:51 AM EDT up reply actions
That seems very similar to what they said after drafting Groves and Harvey
They sure were scary after that.
"It's the greatest job in the world until Peyton comes off the field and you think his thumb might be broken and there's three minutes left in the AFC Championship Game and you're down by three to New England and you haven't taken a snap all year. Yeah, it's a great job until that point." - Jim Sorgi
by gizzardfanny on Apr 26, 2010 4:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: After waiting seemingly forever, it is finally draft week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, and the schedule for next season is being released or something like that this week.
i would give you guys a B
Hughes is a beast and Pat should improve the colts run d. Though i’m surprised you guys didn’t go after a LT
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
Polian said, he tried to trade up, but the teams asked too much
Maybe he tried to trade up for Bulaga.
I think the draft worked out great for us.
We got a top notch DE, someone who should be a solid special teamer and help give Freeney or Mathis a breather. Angerer may not start right away, but, he should also be a solid special teamer and future starter. Thomas is an enigma of sorts, he flew under the radar during combine. The jury is out on him. Mcclendon is looks to have potential(I hate that word). Brody Eldridge was the best blocking TE in the draft, he can really help in short yardage and goal line offensive. Matthews can compete for a DT spot, Conner will likely end up on ST and Fischer could be the opening day KO return man.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Franchise LTs don't fall to the bottom of the first.
Unless the draft is very deep.
We don’t need a project or a depth tackle.
"It's the greatest job in the world until Peyton comes off the field and you think his thumb might be broken and there's three minutes left in the AFC Championship Game and you're down by three to New England and you haven't taken a snap all year. Yeah, it's a great job until that point." - Jim Sorgi
by gizzardfanny on Apr 26, 2010 4:52 AM EDT up reply actions
what a great synopsis by fsugrizz on how a guy (angerer) can be misjudged until you actually see him play and that he is more than what he is percieved
of course the jags love this draft…when year in and year out their first rounds consists of GEMS like rj soward, fatty mcbutterpant, matt jones, reggie williams, reggie nelson, derrick harvey etc the koolaid has to keep getting stronger and stronger
their gm and coach is a reflection of many of their fans….
I love how the demeanor of del rio is this flashy…IM THE MAN..on the sidelines in the first game…we are this tough all star ladden, colts reign is over.., by about the 5th game, the players are questioning the coaching after yet another blown 4th down flop, by game 10, hes starting to get ugly and throw things and then by about game 12 they have given up and del rio looks like hes just been grounded by his mom. by the last game they just say the hell with it.
but believe me they are plenty of fans peaved they didnt get the denver pick…otherwise known now as1st and jacka$$(tebow)
Cs in the absence of Manning wouldn’t get you a Super Bowl, though. Manning is your grading curve.
by Cole Farrington on Apr 25, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
You may have a point, but this team is built around Manning.
If we didn’t have him then our draft strategy would probably be completely different. If the guys we take come in and perform well in the system in which they are placed, how is that anything but a successful draft?
by TrustInPolian on Apr 25, 2010 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I Agree
It’s a B based on talent and need, but the reaching drops it to a C.
by Cole Farrington on Apr 25, 2010 6:32 PM EDT reply actions
really don't see where anything but Thomas in the 3rd is a reach
and that is more because a personal doubt in his talent more than a widespread uncertainty by the rest of the world.
A reach as defined above is when a guy is taken two and three rounds ahead of where he would have otherwise been taken. Angerer would have been gone by the Colts 3rd round pick. Thomas would have more than likely been gone (though I don’t understand why, not a fan) possibly could have fallen to 4. McClendon wouldn’t have made it through the 5th. Eldridge probably would have been there in the 6th but because the Colts didn’t have a 6th rounder they had to take him in the 5th if they wanted him. Finally the other 3 guys were 7th rounders and I suppose the only way you can “reach” for a 7th rounder is if they were for sure to go undrafted otherwise.
I think you have an awful strict sense of the word if you were to think there were enough reaches in the draft to drop the whole draft a complete letter grade.
insert signature here
Actually, by draft time, Thomas was the only non-reach of the players you mentioned. He was mid-4, and if you’re drafting at the end of 3, that’s not a reach. The rest were rounds worse than you indicated.
by Cole Farrington on Apr 25, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
according to who?
My main problem with the whole concept of “reach” is that we base this on what the Todd McShay’s and Mel Kipers of the world say. They do not work for any teams and have proven time and again that they do not have special knowledge of when a player will be picked.
It is nearly impossible to quantify “reach” because the NFL teams are so secretive about their draft boards.
by kasey_junk on Apr 25, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
AND!!!!!!
The Todd McShay’s and Mel Kipers of the world rate players based on what most systems need. The Colts run a very different system within which a very different type of player excels.
Selecting a player who’s the best player on BP’s board isn’t a reach; no matter what round he’s projected to go in because Polian ranks players on a different scale than everyone else.
Ya gotta redefine ‘reach’ when you talk Colts.
Careful what you wish for... a government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take everything you have.
Rec'ed.
"It's the greatest job in the world until Peyton comes off the field and you think his thumb might be broken and there's three minutes left in the AFC Championship Game and you're down by three to New England and you haven't taken a snap all year. Yeah, it's a great job until that point." - Jim Sorgi
by gizzardfanny on Apr 26, 2010 4:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Another baseless claim
On the other side, Bill Polian (with his decades of experience and legions of professional scouts) has been wrong on second and third round players for four years now
The problem with this claim is how do you back it up or refute it. What are the expectations for players taken in the second and third rounds on good teams? The players brought in based on this statement are:
2009 (which should be disregarded because second and third round players don’t make year one impact)
- Jaurad Powers – starter
- Fili Moali – no idea
2008
- Mike Pollack – half year starter, benched last year.
- Philip Wheeler – starter
2007
- Tony Ugoh – 1 year starter, benched
- Dante Hughes – special teamer
- Quinn Pitcock – weird retirement after 1 year
2006
- Tim Jennings – 1 year starter, played in 53 games
- Freddy Keiaho – 2 year starter, 2 year special teams ace/quality backup
So that is 9 players, of those nine we have gotten
2 current starters
2 past starter/special teams aces/quality backup
2 potential busts
2 actual busts
1 unknown
If any of Moala, Ugoh, or Pollack come back to become starters, quality backups or special teams aces you are looking at over 50% who have contributed long term value to the team. That seems pretty good to me. Even if all 3 of them turn out to be busts that means you’ve got ~45% of your picks making a positive contribution. Not great, but certainly not entirely “wrong” either.
I may look more into a statistical analysis of this to see if that would make more sense of this debate.
some discussion on expectations by draft position
Career success by draft order
Draft succeess by team
A couple of things to note:
- This goes through 2008.
- The Colts absolutely dominate the overall draft success by team number.
- A quick scan of the 2nd and 3rd round numbers for the Colts do seem to show a less than average set of picks there.
- But that does not take into account average draft position the team was drafting in.
the pats draft and their too high of grades by the so called experts. look at past history of drafting gators. 9 out of 10 are busts
the only one I see worthy in the past 25 years was emmitt smith. fragile fred is a mixed bag of playing for a bad team and being injury plaqued in half or more seasons of his career although he assessed a big total yards at the end
all those gators…i surely would never draft a qb based on past history.
belicheat is known as this great draft guru and he got suckered IMO. I think its a HUGE slap in the face to compare dallas clark to newly drafted gator TE. theres more to being a great TE than having good hands. brandon spikes will be a flop just like harvey. when you are lazy its comes out real fast
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