The Colts cornerback depth in 2009 and looking ahead to 2010
by Brad Wells on May 11, 2010 1:00 PM EDT
in Colts Analysis
Email
PrintUsing Pro Football Focus's Cumulative Cornerback Summary as a guide, Tim Jennings (-4.3 overall ranking) was just as good a corner last year as Jerraud Powers (-4.0) and Jacob Lacey (-5.4). Not only was Jennings comparable to Powers and Lacey, he was actually better than Kelvin Hayden (-10.7).
Now, while I very likely just discredited the entire body of work Pro Football Focus does in the eyes of Colts fans and Stampede Blue readers, the point here is that despite Jennings being everyone's whipping boy, he actually was a pretty good back-up corner. Again, that's based on my simple observations, and the numbers from Pro Football Focus.
With Jennings having signed with the Bears this off-season, and with Marlin Jackson and T.J. Rushing also allowed to sign with other teams, the Colts really don't have much depth behind second year man Jacob Lacey. And, no offense to Lacey, but what if last year's rather surprising level of production was a fluke? Factor in that both Hayden and Powers struggled to stay healthy last year, and the concern with quality depth in the secondary is a big!
As I stated here yesterday, drafted rookies and collegiate free agents are the only people currently on the roster filling the shoes once worn by established, seasoned veterans. And knowing how often Colts corners get injured, it's fairly safe to say the the 4th and 5th corners on this team will play significant snaps in 2010, and may even need to start games. Last year, 4th corner Tim Jennings played 515 snaps. Lacey, the 5th corner, played 847!
No offense to these kids, but if players like Ray Fisher and Brandon King are playing over 1,000 combined snaps for the Colts next year, the defense could be in trouble.
I'm bringing this topic back up again not to suggest that a lack of proven depth at 4th and 5th corner means this team sucks or anything (though, I appreciate it when people go to that extreme), but because if the Colts do not solidify the depth in the secondary, they likely will not win the Super Bowl for the 2010 season. And that is what all this analysis, drafting, and off-season chit-chat is all about. We want to see a team that will go back to the mother of all games and, this time, kick the crap out of a team like the Saints. It was an insurmountable task last year, and the team had better corner depth.
Now, with inferior depth, it just got harder.
If you don't think this is important, then by all means ignore my worrying ways and treat yourself to a frozen margarita while you wait for early September. For me, this secondary depth issue has me biting my nails.
90 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
It has me biting my nails too, but I look back at Super Bowl XLII
The Giants secondary was decimated. Rookie Aaron Ross, little known Corey Webster, and street free agent Kevin Dockery were the top 3 corners. They were, as we all know, facing the most prolific passing offense in NFL history. They crushed them, because of the pass rush.
What has me really biting my nails is the thought of Freeney getting hurt again. Freeney, Mathis and Hughes are much, much more important than the guys in the secondary. Also, what is the difference between Ray Fisher and Brandon King now and Jacob Lacey last year. Lacey came out of nowhere to play quite well. Why can’t King or Fisher do the same. Also, Polian is a good enough team builder to bring in a guy like he did with Keiwann Ratliff in 2008.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
That secondary was AWFUL
all season, right up to the playoffs.
They were bad again against GB, but in different ways (stupid penalties).
But they actually improved their coverage too, even when the pass rush didn’t land. It was, to me, even more of a miraculous change than the change in Eli’s play.
Cookie Cookie Cookie starts with C!
"They crushed them, because of the pass rush"
Bingo. The best friend of a shakey Secondary is a fantastic pass rush. But not just from the ends – you have to have a couple of “over-drive” DTs who can collapse the pocket and force a play, pressure the QB, and threaten the sack. We still need better play from our DTs in this regard.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on May 11, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
We do, but the DTs did a pretty good job last year. The problem was in the Super Bowl
the Saints have the best set of guards in the NFL.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
I thought they did a much better job stopping the run
But not so much with the pass rush.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on May 11, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you for writing about something that I have been concerned with all off season.
Hawkeye, you hit the nail on the head. Our secondary can become better with the addition of Jerry Hughes and healthy Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis. The point is still valid and needs to be addressed. The secondary lost 2 key contributors, this is why I was in favor of drafting a CB or DE in the 1st round. I firmly believe, that, if you lose a first round talent(Marlin), a first or second round talent is required to replace that person. I love the Pat angerer pick, the Jerry Hughes pick and thought Kevin Thomas may have been a diamond in the rough. Now, that Thomas is hurt, I firmly believe we need to acquire a cb or try to comb the waiver wires for additional CB talent. In context, this isnt a terrible problem, this “problem” still wont prevent us from contending for an AFC title and possible birth in the Super Bowl. Jerry Hughes should really help the pass coverage units more than we may realize.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Agree on Hughes
I could even see putting he and Angerer both in on the outside in third and long situations for obvious passing downs. Hughes is a real blitz threat and Angerer is a fantastic cover-LB. Both of these guys could help our Secondary about as much as plugging in new talent into Jackson’s former spot.
But we also need to get more of a push from the center of our D-line on passing downs. I was hoping Moala would provide something there – but so far we haven’t really seen much from him yet.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on May 12, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
From the intial interviews with BP
It sounds like we may very well see Pat and Jerry on the field at the same time. I heard an interview saying BP sees Angerer as the Nickel LB and Hughes, Freeney and Mathis on the field at the same time. We would be able to drop 1 rush two, or rush all three. I think, our defense is predictable at times. The addition of Hughes is huge. Angerer, is gonna contribute this year, not only at Nickle LB, ST and he will compete for a SAM LB spot. Im in the minority on that last point, everyone blogging seems to be resigned to the fact that he is a backup Middle LB. I am not sold, Phillip Wheeler finished strong last year, but, I think Pat has too much talent to be on the bench. Besides, Gary Brackett resigned and Middle LB isnt a weakness, SAM was majorly inconsistent last year. Moreover, BP pointed to this in the post draft interviews. So, I would be happy to see Pat as the starting SAM, Gary as MLB and Clint Sessions as the WIL backer.
You make a good point about Moala. I was always checking last year to see if he was in the game. My biggest fear, is for Moala to become the next Quinn Pittcock. I havent caught even a sniff of anything about Fili this off season. I wonder, is he in good stand with Big John and Larry Coyer? Mum has been the word on Moala. If Fili can make a big leap from last year, we could be ok.
The initial post about the secondary is still valid, and it would be nice to see BP and Caldwell bring in some more CB talent, and flood the Training Camp with talent. Let them battle for the 4th and 5th CB spot. There is hope, Brandon King seems to be a solid UDA pickup. Ray Fischer, I dont have a feel for Ray yet, hopefully, he blossoms into a little bit of Kelvin and a little Marlin.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
"My biggest fear, is for Moala to become the next Quinn Pittcock."
Pitcock was actually good his rookie year.
He’s apparently a distributor for a nutritional supplement company now; one that ironically has Drew Brees as their spokesman. Looks like he still lives in Indy.
Incidentally, I’m not worried about Moala.
Anonymity breeds inhumanity. In simpler terms, don't be a troll.
I think you know what I meant.
But, I take your point, maybe we will get the inverse from Moala. A productive 2nd season
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Well, based on
everything we’ve learned from 18to88’s series, DT is not a position that rookies are typically going to crack. In addition, there should be the natural “jump” year for Moala, although depending on how coachable he is, the jump year might be delayed a bit.
I do think he’ll contribute next year, which is all we really need him to do. We have a much better thing going on at DT than we have in recent years.
Anonymity breeds inhumanity. In simpler terms, don't be a troll.
I agree with that.
Any contribution will be better then last year for Fili. I assumed he would transition easier then he actually has.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
For as much as the secondary is getting talked up
I am still FAR more worried about the offensive line.
Insert Clever Statement Here
Well thank you, I think I will...
"She's a beautiful ship alright! Shapely, seductive. I'm gonna fly her brains out."
- Captain Zapp Brannigan
I prefer my
Margaritas on the rocks, more of the Cadillac variety…
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on May 11, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
mmmm
Margaritas! Strawberry please!
Sail on silvergirl, Sail on by. Your time has come to shine. All your dreams are on their way. See how they shine. If you need a friend I'm sailing right behind. Like a bridge over troubled water I will ease your mind. Like a bridge over troubled water I will ease your mind. - Simon and Garfunkel
Screw margaritas and nail biting...
I will nervously chug scotch.
I’m 100% with you on this. I think I’m still a bit more optimistic – they’ve always shown that they can find some unknown gems to play well (like Lacey) – but regardless of what words you use about Thomas, the ‘10 draft, etc, the underlying conclusion – that they’re shallow and inexperienced right now – is the right one. And yeah, it’s a little scary. Not a lot – yet – but a little.
Cookie Cookie Cookie starts with C!
I'm considering it, the way this thread is panning out.
Anonymity breeds inhumanity. In simpler terms, don't be a troll.
"Now, while I very likely just discredited the entire body of work Pro Football Focus does"
no, you just misunderstood the difference between counting and efficiency stats.
Powers and Lacey got ~300 more snaps and got a similarly negative total of mark ups/downs. Jennings was clearly worse per play than Powers or Lacey by their ratings.
Hayden and Jennings did play similar snaps so their rankings would be comparable without accounting for differences in PT. While I don’t think anyone would say Hayden had a good season, ratings like Jennings vs Hayden is why I usually only use PFF for PT numbers.
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
Just how deeply can your senses be wrong? With some VR goggles, a camera and a touch on the back researchers were able to overcome a person's sense of being inside their own body.
No, I don't hink I misunderstood anything
Their cumulative rankings for corners are pretty clear by the link I provided. They have guys like Woodson and Revis ranked at the top, and players like Powers, Lacey, and Jennings ranked in the 60s. If those overall rankings are off, or not accurate, than the cumulative rankings are bad and not to be trusted. I shouldn’t have to dig down to find anything more.
And, as you said, if we are going into nitpicking over the number of snaps, Jennings had 515 and Hayden had 510. Jennings posted a much better ranking (-4.7) than Hayden (-10.7). Also, Jenning’s NFL rating last year was better than Hayden’s.
Of course, I’m not saying Jennings is better than Hayden. I’m just saying that Jennings was a good back-up. And these stats seem to support that. That’s all.
SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account so you can post a FanPost, make a FanShot, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.
you said
Tim Jennings (-4.3 overall ranking) was just as good a corner last year as Jerraud Powers (-4.0) and Jacob Lacey (-5.4). Not only was Jennings comparable to Powers and Lacey
Which is apples to oranges because it’s a counting stat being applied to players with big differences in attempts. It’s like saying the guy that caught 30 passes on 60 attempts (not very good) is just as bad as the guy that caught 30 on 100 attempts (awful).
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
Just how deeply can your senses be wrong? With some VR goggles, a camera and a touch on the back researchers were able to overcome a person's sense of being inside their own body.
by shake n bake on May 11, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Those rankings are actually normalized
If you click on the individual player, you’ll see different numbers:
Powers: -5.4 (800 snaps)
Lacey: -3.0 (847 snaps)
Jennings: -8.2 (515 snaps)
Hayden: -11.9 (510 snaps)
Even if you use the normalized numbers:
Powers: 57th
Lacey: 60th
Jennings: 70th
Hayden: 101st
Creator and developer of the Winning Stats.
The player page numbers include playoffs
the ones BBS links doesn’t. I think that’s the only difference.
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
Just how deeply can your senses be wrong? With some VR goggles, a camera and a touch on the back researchers were able to overcome a person's sense of being inside their own body.
by shake n bake on May 11, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, I see
Didn’t look close enough.
Still don’t like subjective stats.
Creator and developer of the Winning Stats.
yeah, but they are a good resource for PT numbers.
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
Just how deeply can your senses be wrong? With some VR goggles, a camera and a touch on the back researchers were able to overcome a person's sense of being inside their own body.
by shake n bake on May 11, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitely
The real stats on there are great. The colored numbers, not so much.
Creator and developer of the Winning Stats.
Looks like I picked the wrong offseason to quit amphetamines.
------
"How can a pickup truck contain enough mass to unfold into a towering machine? I say if Ringling Brothers can get 15 clowns into a Volkswagen, anything is possible."
by E.M.H. on May 11, 2010 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Of course it can snowball...
If there are more injuries, I’ll officially be concerned. But we have the best crop of CFAs, draft picks, and 1st year players at CB in recent memory. So, Thomas is out for the year. I’d be shocked if we couldn’t find adequate #4 and #5 CBs from among Terrail Lambert, Brandon King, Thad Turner, Ray Fisher, and Jordan Hemby. A lot of talent in that group, and we don’t typically need top cover corners (though we’re dooing more ma-to-man nowadays than ever before). My official prediction is that Lambert and King make the active roster and Turner lands on the PS.
Thomas is not out for the year.
Could be out.
At least, the new CBs have excellent bulk. Looked at the picks. All, except Fisher are over 195 pounds.
I'm with you Hetfield...
I think we have the strongest front 3 at corner back to start a season than we’ve had since Manning has been with the team. I also think our defensive backs, as a unit, are potentially the strongest and deepest in the NFL, right now. I am with you, I believe it is no stretch that we’ll get a serviceable nickel/back-up corner back out of a very talented group of Fisher and the undrafted free agents.
People seem to confuse this confidence with thinking we’ll see the second coming of Jacob Lacey. I wouldn’t go that far, players like Lacey who start and play a significant number of snaps as undrafted free agent are certainly rare. But a player who is capable of taking a significant number of snaps in a back-up and nickel only sort of role, those are not nearly as rare.
Of course...
That’s not to say that it wouldn’t be fantastic to be 6 deep with starting level talent corners. But I don’t think an franchise in the NFL boasts that and I think worrying about your team/franchise because it doesn’t, and mentioning not have 5-6 starting level caliber corners on the team as a reason we may not win the Super Bowl is a bit much. Again, no team in the NFL can boast a lack of drop-off in talent from CB1 to CB5. Unless that talent level of CB1 is so low that you wouldn’t want it anyway.
I'll ask again:
how are they playing?
Stating definitively that the team has “inferior depth” implies, rather explicitly, that our current players are measurably worse than whomever you’re comparing them to.
Anonymity breeds inhumanity. In simpler terms, don't be a troll.
here's what I'd say to that
Last year we had Aaron Fransisco playing in the Super Bowl, and our #2 CB for most of the year, snap-wise, was the infamous Tim Jennings (thanks to the fact that no one else, save Lacey, could stay healthy).
That was BEFORE our we lost our #4 CB (who was drafted in an effort to get deeper) to a season-ending injury this year.
In group A you’ve got Marlin Jackson, Kelvin Hayden, Tim Jennings, Jerraud Powers and Jacob Lacey heading into training camp.
In group B you’ve got (hypothetically) Hayden, Powers, Lacey, Ray Fisher and Brandon King. Which grou would you say is deeper?
We can’t count on another Jacob Lacey-like UDFA success story. It’s probably not going to happen. Given Powers/Hayden’s injury issues, it’s fair to say that at some point this year, Lacey will suit up across from a UDFA rookie and a 7th round rookie. That’s just the facts. That makes last year’s group deeper by default because fewer rookies (or rather, fewer late-round/undrafted rookies) were forced to start.
"You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?"
Come visit The Fantasy Ninjas. We'd love to hear from you.
"Which grou[p] would you say is deeper?"
The group that plays better. That is, and always will be, the only fair way to qualify it.
I completely agree that it’s unlikely we’ll see another Lacey scenario. Yet, at the same time, it’s perfectly within reason to happen given the talent, and the lack of complexity in our system.
Given Powers/Hayden’s injury issues, it’s fair to say that at some point this year, Lacey will suit up across from a UDFA rookie and a 7th round rookie. That’s just the facts.
It’s not a fact, and it’s not fair to say. As a possibility, yes. As a probability, perhaps. In a contingency, we have to be prepared for it to shake out that way. But you’re trying to make a factual statement about something that not only hasn’t happened yet, but isn’t even assured to happen.
Approximately none of us have seen these kids play professional football yet, so no one can definitively say that we’re more or less deep than we were last year. We’re in the same situation, actually: we’ve got three guys we know can play, and two relative question marks/rookies after that (assuming you do in fact, and I concur, need five corners who can play well). Also, how exactly is it that you can assume Kevin Thomas was our #4 corner? Why not three or five? It’s because you can’t; because you haven’t seen them play, and because you seem to be placing an emphasis on draft position that our own team doesn’t.
Anonymity breeds inhumanity. In simpler terms, don't be a troll.
Secondary depth is this team's single biggest weakness
Bamock has a story over at his blog about it where he conveys a pretty solid sense of optimism. But I disagree. If Hayden goes down, this team is royally screwed. There’s no pass rush that’s good enough to make up for CBs who can’t cover when you’re playing the league’s better QBs.
"You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?"
Come visit The Fantasy Ninjas. We'd love to hear from you.
That's a bold statement
"You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?"
Come visit The Fantasy Ninjas. We'd love to hear from you.
Maybe you should attack him and call him names
Bold statements have a way of inviting that (runs and hides under his desk).
SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account so you can post a FanPost, make a FanShot, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.
good luck with that
"Pressure is something you feel when you don't know what the hell you're doing."
-Peyton Manning
I hope it was the injuries
but Hayden didn’t look all that good last season.
I don't always drink beer....but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis.
by AceOfSpades on May 11, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree completely
“If Hayden goes down, this team is royally screwed. There’s no pass rush that’s good enough to make up for CBs who can’t cover when you’re playing the league’s better QBs.”
You said it best. If we face a pass happy chargers we can kiss the superbowl goodbye. If it is redux saints too we will have a similar problem. There is no pass rush good enough to make up for CB’s who cannot cover period .
I do prefer the realistic analysis rather than the homerism which is often present here. People were cheering here when Hank Baskett was hired also .We all know how that ended.Every draft pick is often potrayed in fanposts as the next pro bowler. I have learnt from the past three seasons when two of the times we were knocked out by the chargers to take everything said here with a pinch of salt.
The colts better find some good UDFA rookies or pray hard that Hayden/Lacey/Powers stay healthy.
by Horseshoe_Tsunami on May 11, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
The actual stats on that page are really helpful
A like using AY/A (since we can’t really use sacks here):
Lacey – 5.04 (24th)
Powers – 5.45 (32nd)
Jennings – 6.75 (52nd)
Hayden – 7.59 (69th)
For full disclosure, Asomugha had a AY/A of 7.89. But the top 10 looks a lot better than that of PFF:
Revis, Woodson, Lowery, Greer, Allen, L. Hall, D. Hall, Jenkins, Bodden, Samuel, Finnegan
The other crucial bit of information, in the case of CBs, is First Downs Allowed. That is where all of my frustration lies with any Colts CB. I understand it is part of the style, but certain teams clearly take advantage of it, completing 5 yard passes on 3rd and 4 up and down the field.
Creator and developer of the Winning Stats.
So
That obviously has something to do with who they’re covering too, right?
And in the case of Hayden, he’s missed like 40% of the games over the last two seasons with injury, so there’s that, if it means anything.
"You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?"
Come visit The Fantasy Ninjas. We'd love to hear from you.
It does, yes
You can go several levels deeper into these stats, adjusting for WR faced, but that data isn’t out there, so we have to go on what we have.
I don’t think Hayden is in question here, for those specific reasons. 2010 is a different story, however, where he better go out there and earn his money.
Creator and developer of the Winning Stats.
Nnamdi's is mainly because they only throw at him if the WR is wide, wide open.
He was still targeted just 20 or so times.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Yep, they claim 28 times
which is less than 2 / game. Insane.
Creator and developer of the Winning Stats.
That is scary.
Revis had a great, great year, but QBs still threw at him like three times as much.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Don't bite your nails....
I think what you are overlooking in this whole “worrying about the corners” thing you are going on and on about… Is the SAFETIES we have …We have 3 really good ones..(yes I know Bob gets hurt …but he is one of the best when not) … We play a Cover 2…its not like we are putting any of these guys on there own Revis island or anything… add in the pass rush and they don’t have to be GREAT… just competent…
by AJ Colt on May 11, 2010 3:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You cannot get pressure on every down
You simply cannot collapse the pocket on every down and you are factoring in the fact that the DT’s can pressure the QB as well. The colts DT’s have just done enough ..not a spectacular job. If Freeney and Mathis are used so much it will result in a burn down syndrome which results in lots of injuries at the end of the season.
We need CB’s who can cover period. Patriots game Moss made us look like fools , if we had faced the chargers this year we would have had fits with their 6’7 receivers.
by Horseshoe_Tsunami on May 11, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
We would have fits with the Chargers big receivers anyway.
CBs are really, really interchangable. Unless you have a great one, like Nnamdi, Revis, Bailey circa 2004, the drop off between the top CB and the #4 DB is not that great, at least compared to other positions (DEs??). Also, this is why the Colts run a “simple” defensive system, so they can plug and play.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
We DID play a Cover 2
I think Coyer is moving towards a more aggressive style with man to man, he just needs more parts. That is a reason why they liked Thomas – he has man to man skills.
I don't always drink beer....but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis.
More aggressive style, yes
deterring away from cover 2? no. There will be more man coverage and more blitzes (as evident of last year) but this is still a team that is strictly a 4 man rush with 7 dropping back into coverage
by metal_militia on May 11, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, in 2009 this was the case.
However, with the drafting of a guy like Thomas and the signing of DTs that have the ability to push the pocket, and even the a-gap blitzes that the Colts featured, I feel like Coyer wants to run more of a pressure system like he did in Denver to great effect. The only team that his Denver defense had trouble against was the Colts. It was really, really good against every other team.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
And im in favor of that
but Coyer is a Tampa 2 disciple. Im pretty sure the Colts will still use a 4 man rush fairly often. When you can get pressure without bitzing, why wouldn’t you?
by metal_militia on May 11, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Love this team but am tired of excuses
I definetly love this team but over the past three seasons it has been one freak injury after another. Maybe it is an question of super bad luck for this team ….but it is said the best learn to overcome their injuries and acheive their goal which is the superbowl.
This year if the excuse is CB’s who cannot cover the team management better address this in the offseason.
by Horseshoe_Tsunami on May 11, 2010 3:41 PM EDT reply actions
there will always be a hole somewhere
you cant patch them all up and expect it to be a permanent fix. Thats why we have free agency and the draft every year.
Plus Freeney is just as Important as Manning. If he goes down the whole team feels it.
by metal_militia on May 11, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Im not too concerned about the secondary
Once more, we are only talking about Dime CB’s as our nickel package is already established. Brandon King and Thad Turner look like good prospects and i expect them to be integral parts of our secondary (given that KT is down). Like most people here, im more concerned about the offensive line given that there is so much uncertainty with several positions open for competition.
Not necessarily
We are NOW, but by week 3 one of those guys will be starting because Hayden, Powers or Lacey (or more than one of them) will be injured in some way.
But let’s look at it this way…..Peyton, Reggie, Gonzo, Garcon, Collie, Clark, Addai and Brown with a revamped O line (hopefully) will be unstoppable!
I don't always drink beer....but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis.
True
There is a possibility that one of them might get hurt, but to me, pass rush always negates any problems you may have in your secondary
by metal_militia on May 11, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Hughes
should hopefully prove that to be true(ish).
I don't always drink beer....but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis.
All right, that does it
I’m now a lions fan.
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
Here's what I know:
If the Colts go 16-0 next year, allowing a TOTAL of 300 yards rushing during the season, and get 40 sacks from their DTs, and the Lions go 0-16 and give up 6000 rushing and get no sacks, I will still hear, ‘The Colts are undersized on defense and need to get bigger at the tackle position’ more than I’ll hear, ‘The Lions would be relegated to the CFL if there wasn’t already a franchise called the Lions there’.
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
I actually expect the Lions to be better this year
They’re probably still a couple years away from being serious playoff contenders, but I think they’ve had a good offseason. I like them along with the Raiders and Chiefs to be the “surprise” teams this year in terms of exceeding expectations. But then, that’s not exactly saying much. Here is one bold prediction: either the Raiders or the Chiefs will make the playoffs.
Nothing's complicated if you understand it.
I'm looking forward to seeing the Lions improve
Two recent Cal players on the team… more than the Colts have right now… hmmmm… might have to switch allegiances…
How can you not love a team that does this?
One small, tiny, teency weency itsy bitsy question
In the Dedication to Blair White, you (BBS) say that Stats don’t tell the whole story and you can’t use them as your only point of reference (or, in some of the arguments, even your main point of reference). Yet in the opening here, you have no problem using stats that say Tim Jennings was the 2nd best CB on this team (with no context) without pointing out that any person that creates a statistical system in which Tim Jennings could be called the 2nd best anything (other than bench warmer or cushion provider) is drunk.
If we’re to remove stats from all of our discussions, this is how my eyeball tests would go:
Gonzalez: Smart, good route runner, catches a lot of balls, has had some mental lapses in various games.
Garcon: Big, strong, can do a lot of special things, inconsistent, can’t catch the ball, only runs a few routes.
Powers: Smart, good in run support, good in coverage (though better in man than zone, in my opinion)
Jennings: Makes me want to scoop my eyes out with a spoon in lieu of performing an eye test.
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
by SpazMo on May 11, 2010 4:55 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
LMAO
That Jennings’ comment was priceless
by metal_militia on May 11, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Addition by subtraction
That’s how you describe Jennings’ departure. That guy reached his ceiling in this defense a long time ago (and that ceiling was fairly low). I’d be more willing to gamble on some rookie coming out of camp and playing in Jennings’ spot than watching another year of him giving large cushions and getting burned (and running into people on special teams plays). Jennings was the Gilbert Gardner of our DBs.
You can marshal all the stats you want, but anyone that watched the games knows that Jennings was a flat turd.
by tenyardfight on May 11, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know if FO does any behind the scenes stats on CBs
but I remember a comment from one of the “Audibles at the Line” segments during a Colts game… one of the FBOs says, ‘if my four year old daughter was playing QB, and Tim Jennings was on the other team, what % of her passes could she complete’, and one of them answered something like, ‘75%’.
I think that about covers it.
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
They give the standard target%, ypa, ypt and other stuff.
I usually find these stats that FO does more useful than the over-hyped DVOA.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
uhm
What does FO mean to you? :)
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
Ooo Ooo Oooo
I know!!!
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on May 11, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Lack of name recognition in the secondary isn't what scares me
And because the Colts have one of, if not the best scouting organizations in the league, it shouldn’t scare you either. I do worry that, without Kevin Thomas, Coyer won’t have an entirely free hand in varying coverages and, specifically, in using more man-to-man to pull off some of the more exotic blitz packages he threw in the mix at times last year. Seems they were looking forward to a full offseason in which to install some more daring looks. I don’t doubt that Brandon King or Thad Turner can provide at least as much help as Rushing, if not Jennings’s discipline in coverage.
by Louisville Soul Train on May 11, 2010 6:01 PM EDT reply actions
Much better than your other DB post
You state here that is of your (and only your) opinion we will be in trouble, while in the other you basically said (whether you intended to or not) that we were screwed no matter what anyone thought. Much improvement there.
Just remember if you told someone last preseason that we were not only going to the SB (after every idiot predicting a 10-6 record and that the AFC South was now the Titans’), but we would do it without HOF coach Tony Dungy, Marvin Harrison, his replacement Anthony Gonzalez, Tony Ugoh (the assumed “franchise” LT), Adam Vinatieri, Bob Sanders, Marlin Jackson, with Kelvin Hayden out much of the year, cutting our starting DT Ed Johnson (the position we HAD to improve at in the offseason and on paper we didn’t) and the last ranked rushing attack (including our first round pick missing most of the year or being a non-impact player until playoffs), what would they have said?
Before you answer, consider that instead of the above mentioned players, we replaced them with a second year benchwarmer from a D-3 school, a 4th round rookie from a mid major conference, a career back up OL guarding Peyton’s blindside, a 41 year old kicker out of semi-retirement, a 3rd round undersized rookie DB from Auburn, and UNDRAFTED rookie DB from OK St., and a former undrafted safety from Texas Tech. How would you expect anyone to believe that was anything more than a 9 win team? No one would have expected it.
Now I’m not saying we should completely write off the DB depth issue and that all will be right with the world. It is definitely a concern, but not one we should be staying awake at night worrying over. As long as the above mention members of the Colts team who sat out last year are back healthy, we are already far better off than we were last year (when we were a Freeney foot injury and Baskett f*** up from a second Lombardi trophy). Be weary, but after what we overcame last season, anyone with any major concerns about what this team can do is a fool.
As long as #18 is taking snaps, we will always be a Super Bowl contender. When you have the best there is in the game, that is just how it is. Worry about DB depth if you want to nitpick, but case in point is that as long as 18 can play at a high level, your just making yourself nervous for nothing.
"A lot of times, Kenny, we have no idea what we're doing. But the DEFENSE doesn't know that we don't know what we're doing.....and that's next level." -Peyton Manning
by npb1985 on May 11, 2010 7:47 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
I'd rec this a million times if I could.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on May 11, 2010 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions
nicely said
and i agree, the tone of this post is a major improvement and was good reading.
Careful what you wish for... a government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take everything you have.
Haha thanks
I think it’s gotten to the point where some of our fans our so spoiled by our success, any sign of a weak spot, regardless of how relevant it is, they start to panic. People need to quit looking for things to worry about (kind of what BBS is doing) and start focusing on the obvious right in front of them. Peyton still the best there is. Sanders healthy. Gonzo healthy. Other stars healthy. Young team who still has much more potential. When the most you have to worry about is the fourth and fifth corners, disregarding the fact that if healthy, Powers, Lacey, and Hayden are all high level performers, remember that we could have to worry about a QB controversy, suspensions, retirements, firings, etc. Call me cautiously optimistic (at worse), but I think we’ll be okay.
"A lot of times, Kenny, we have no idea what we're doing. But the DEFENSE doesn't know that we don't know what we're doing.....and that's next level." -Peyton Manning
I stand in awe
"Pressure is something you feel when you don't know what the hell you're doing."
-Peyton Manning
What kills me about this whole subject...
The funny thing is that we could be having this conversation about any position on the team other than WR:
DE – You all comfortable with 4th and 5th DE Keyunta Dawson and Ricardo Mathews starting?
LB – How about Ramon Humber starting at WLB and Rookie Pat Angerer starting in the middle?
RB – You interested in platooning Devin Moore and Javarris James at RB?
It actually seems to me that we’ve chosen to worry about the area that the Colts have been most successful finding CFAs and 1st year players to contribute immediately. Ratliff, Lacy, Muhammed, Harper, David. All were guys no one expected to do much right off the bat, and yet they all played well early on…
Eh
I think we all know statistics are built to say exactly what you want them to say. Does this website take into account that when Hayden was on the field he was covering a teams #1 receiver. Whereas when Jennings was on the field, he was generally covering the worst receiver on the other team?
You however have acknowledged that you would not dare to say Jennings was better than Hayden, which would be a crazy argument to make. I agree, Jennings was solid for a #4/5 corner. I would bet any amount of money that most fans on here would tell you everytime they saw jennings someone was making a play on him. When asked how many times that happened through the year they would say somewhere between 10-20. Point is, as illustrated, he saw a lot more playing time than that. He just seems to only get recognized when he is doing something wrong.
As far as our corner depth, I am not concerned. We have Hayden, Powers, Lacy and some relatively unknowns. This might sound scary, but were any of you confident that Hayden, Jackson, a 4th round draft pick and an undrafted rookie along with Jennings would be solid? I doubt it. We still have Hayden, in my opinion Powers is a much better fit than Jackson, and Lacy is far better than Jennings. So the three we know about this year are better than the three we knew about last year. Guess we will have to wait and see on the rest.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Stampede Blue
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
- Adrian Peterson blows teammates away in footraces; appears to be on the mend
- UPDATE: Charlie Sheen didn’t buy Lawrence Taylor’s Super Bowl ring
- Alex Smith gets blown up by Jon Beason over Cam Newton comments
