And thus, the Roy Hall experiment quietly ends
Our partners at National Football Post are reporting that the Colts are releasing oft-injured wide receiver Roy Hall. Hall was drafted in the 5th Round of the now-awful 2007 NFL Draft for the Colts. At 6'3, 240 pounds, Hall offered size and speed at the WR position. However, Hall's problem was he could never stay healthy; three season all ending with him on the IR list.
Hall was a decent special teams player, but as a wide receiver he had an annoying habit of not catching the ball in pre-season games. Size, speed, and strength are great, but wideouts who can't catch are completely and totally useless.
With Hall getting cut, that leaves only Anthony Gonzalez, Tony Ugoh, Keyunta Dawson, and Clint Session from the 2007 Draft class left on the Colts roster. Even more depressing, both Gonzo and Ugoh have lost their starting jobs, with Ugoh relegated to back-up tackle and Gonzo possibly being the #4 WR on this team. 2007 Draft selections gone from the team are Dante Hughes (cut 2009), Quinn Pitcock (retired 2008), Michael Coe (cut 2009), Brannon Condren (cut 2008, re-signed 2009 only to be cut before camp), and now Roy Hall (cut 2010). The only starter from that draft is Session, who was drafted in the 4th round. Keyunta Dawson, drafted in Round Seven, will likely not make it past the final roster cutdown to 53 this year.
Compare this to 2006, which saw the Colts grab three high-quality starters (Joseph Addai, Charlie Johnson, Antoine Bethea) and get a lot more "mileage" out of comparable lower round players like Freddy Keiaho (cut 2010) and Tim Jennings (cut 2010).
2007 was simply a terrible draft for the Colts. The best college player to come out of that group might have been Melvin Bullitt, who went undrafted out of Texas A&M.
We wish Roy the best in hopefully re-launching his NFL career. He seems like a good guy who works hard, but injuries really stunted his development.
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I wish Roy well.
But, damn, I’m happy to have that roster spot open…
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
Dudley Guice
Opens a door for him.
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Why do you say Gonzo lost his starting job?
There is no evidence that is true.
18to88.com
by deshawn zombie on May 3, 2010 4:34 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Because
Reggie Wayne and Pierre Garcon were the starting receivers for pretty much the entire 2009 season. Because Pierre Garcon is bigger, stronger, and faster than Gonzo. Because the starting combo of Reggie and Pierre almost won a Super Bowl. That’s why.
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And had horrible hands
Don’t forget his horrible hands.
18to88.com
by deshawn zombie on May 3, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nobody can forget the drops
’cept BBS, apparently.
Garcon's drop was probably the 3rd worst play for the Colts in the Super Bowl
After the onside kick and pick 6.
Polar bear boxers
Sigh.......
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Finals suck.
You mean the same Garcon
that dropped a key pass in teh Super Bowl that could have led to the Colts putting the hammer down on the Saints?
Garcon is a good player. He’s not Gonzo.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Gonzo being on IR
Might have had something to do with not starting last year. Just sayin…
by the_iowa_hawkeye on May 3, 2010 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
key word
almost. We cant predict what would have happened if Gonzo (or for that case Bob) were healthy, but there is a possibility that the Colts would have won the superbowl had they both been there. Think about it, Gonzo has better hands than Garcon, which means he most likely wouldnt have dropped that pivotal pass Garcon dropped. Sanders has better cover skills than Bullit, which probably would have prevented more of those intermediate passes the Saints were completing.
Stating that both Sanders and Gonzo lost there jobs already is ludicrous, especially when its clear that both of them are more talented than their counterparts.
by metal_militia on May 5, 2010 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hand him a club and put him in front of a dead horse! lol
He’s just driving home his 2007 draft class sucked message/opinion.
The reasons he just outlined are all well and good but I could point out that a Garcon drop was one of the biggest momentum swinging moments in the game. I could point out that it’s irresponsible to make a claim that Gonzalez has or likely has lost his starting spot to another player on the team because at no time while he has been healthy has he been behind any wide receiver on the current roster not named Wayne.
I could also point out that Gonzalez was/is a budding star who suffered an unfortunate injury that kept him out of 2009 and that it is my opinion that, absent the injury, there is good reason to believe that Gonzo would have topped 1,000 yards receiving last year (and also likely he put up more TDs than Garcon as well). He was also getting his timing down with Manning in a scary good way… as preseason last year would attest, having one of the most “Harrison-like” end-zone fade grabs I’ve seen for a few years.
All these things are relevant but none will change his opinion. And that’s okay… we’re all allowed to have one. And at SB, BBS is king :)
Thanks to MarkFive05 I have a new theme video that I hope you all will remember me by: BAM BAM
I think Roy can still have a future
I’m sure, he has better hands, than TO or Braylon. Also, the Rams are very thin at WR. A former #5 for the Colts could make that team.
Folks that claimed last week
that the 2007 was a C draft or better need to read this post and reflect again. OSU was not kind to us that year between ole Roy and “Retired at 22 Pitcock”
by Rocky Top Manning on May 3, 2010 4:35 PM EDT reply actions
I gave it a D
Again, it depresses the hell out of me to give that draft a D. I shouted from the mountain tops back in 2007 as to how awesome that draft was. Now, it was crap.
I need a drink.
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Right
I remember you hated it, as did I, others were more generous with the grading curve….
by Rocky Top Manning on May 3, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
By objective measures it was better than that.
Please check out: this.
The average “starter years” that a team gets out of a draft is 1.6. We have already gotten way more than that out of this draft and that is without any more starting time from Sessions, Gonzo or Ugoh.
That is one objective measure that indicates that this is a much better than average draft for an NFL team.
Trading a future #1 to draft a guy that does not start at LT 3 years later, and was a healthy scratch on at least 2 occasions last year, is a heavy, heavy cost to pay. Simple starter stats don’t account for things like this.
by Rocky Top Manning on May 3, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Imagine...
2007 without Tony Ugoh. Charlie Johnson was a MESS at left tackle in ’07.
You can’t ignore what a player already contributed.
18to88.com
by deshawn zombie on May 3, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
How-evah
Maybe.. .just MAYBE if Ugoh isn’t drafted, Tarik Glenn sticks around for one more year.
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
Hm.
Good point. Never thought of it like that. Maybe he would have…
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on May 3, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Wish that would have happened,
but I think they went to get Ugoh knowing Glenn was out the door.
That's entirely possible
and we could have all enjoyed 48 more false starts in 2007.
Ugoh’s 2007 was a very good year for a rookie LT. He has not lived up to expectations since then, but as a rookie had the most vital spot on a pass-first team’s OL and we won 13 games. (yes, he was generally regarded as a better run blocker than pass blocker).
Looking at that draft in terms of my 9 year-old’s spelling tests, and based on the NFL averages to establish the curve, I don’t see that we blew 5 out of 20 spelling words (for a 75% or a C). If the NFL average is 1.6 starter years or a grade of B- or whatever, we seem to have done better than that. Yes, is is disappointing when your sights are set real high. (Come on, son, you know how to spell “tackle!” What were you thinking?) You cannot predict injuries or complete 180 degree changes of heart (Pitcock). That’s where luck comes in.
On draft day, that was a solid B+ draft with potential to be higher in six years. As it turns out, it will be lower unless Gonzo makes 3-4 pro bowls—not out of the question as he is the #2 WR until a revised depth chart says otherwise in September.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
ok
But how do you propose we measure this? I’m just tired of using the BBSSS (BBS says so) rating to grade a draft class.
Though to be honest I don’t mind using BBSSS to judge a draft class, nearly as much as using it to prognosticate who will be the starting WRs next year.
I’m also amused that when we are bashing the current draft we are all convinced that Charlie Johnson has to go at LT. But when we are bashing past drafts he is a “quality starter”.
Terrific link
But I think you are mis-reading the stat. The 1.6 is average per draft pick, not draft class. A standard 7-pick class would average 11.2. Might still get that if Sessions and Gonzo have long careers, but the rest fell far short unless Ugoh makes a comeback. And its worse if you count Ugoh as a first rounder since the Colts average 6.5 starter years for the 1st round (skewed by Manning and Harrison) while the league as a whole averages 4.
by ex-Viking fan on May 3, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
You are correct.
What I really intended to point out was that 3 years after that draft we already have ~6 years worth of starts for the draft class, and that number will only go up, and that this is actually a pretty impressive result already.
My post and the link confused that for sure. My mistake.
*Session
Pet peeve of mine.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Finals suck.
Ditto.
Richard(s) does it to me as well.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on May 3, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
That too.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Finals suck.
Clints and Jameys aren't too happy about it, either.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
I just did a couple of posts on the subject of defensive worth.
Turns out that Session is actually really quite productive. He may not be ultra amazing, but by my humble calculations he’s ranked 12th, 3rd and 4th in defensive production the past three years (‘07, ’08, ’09). It was a little more involved than just tackles this time, but basically it had Freeney and Mathis being ultra productive quite alot, and then top LBs, CBs, and Ss filling the rest of the spots. I think Session may actually be a really good “long career starter” for the colts. As for Gonzo, he is easily in a “battle for 2nd” position. Actually, my biggest problem with the Gonzo vs. Garcon argument is I always saw Gonzo as more of a route runner, and not so much a sprint down field guy like Garcon. If we take it easy to start with and get Gonzo’s knee back to strength i can see Gonzo taking slot, Garcon taking deep, and Wayne being the hands down #1 guy. After Gonzo’s knee is fully battle tested then I see him moving over to replace Garcon after 4-6 games.
"I shall not fear. Fear is the Mind killer. Fear is the little death that leads to total obliteration. I will face my fear and let it pass through me. When the fear is gone, there shall be nothing. Only I shall remain."
-Frank Herbert "Dune" (1965)
BBS is clearly just trying to provoke us
His continued insistence that Gonzo is not the starting WR going into this year has absolutely no basis. He has never provided any, and there have been no reports to back him up.
At this point I can only assume he does it to stir the pot and generate controversy. Don’t fall for his cheap tricks.
by kasey_junk on May 3, 2010 4:39 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
LOL
Provoke you? He isn’t the starter. Why would the Colts bench Garcon, who almost helped them win a Super Bowl, for Gonzalez, who is coming off two or three knee surgeries?
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because he is a better receiver
He had better stats when he played and timed out faster when they ran. By objective measure he was considerably better.
If he hasn’t recovered from his surgery, then he might not be the starter, but as I have heard no report to this that is purely speculation.
by kasey_junk on May 3, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Because he's a better player
Polar bear boxers
by Colts Homer on May 3, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That's a good reason.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Finals suck.
I don't always like DVOA, but
Garcon 2009: -0.4% DVOA which was 43 out of 89, ranked 46 out 0f 89 in DYAR and had a catch rate of 52%.
Gonzo 2008: 26.2% DVOA which was 3rd out of 79, and had a DYAR that was 13 out of 79, and a catch rate of 72%.
I think it is pretty clear that Gonzo is the better player.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Yep.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Finals suck.
How come after the rational, complete responses, there is no follow-up or refutation?
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
Reggie Wayne
was injured his first three years in the NFL too. Guess we should have benched him and demoted him for receivers like Wilkins and Pyatt… oh wait.
by metal_militia on May 5, 2010 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Garcon faster than Gonzo?
Not sure where that came from. I think Gonzo was pushing Ginn for fastest on the team that year. But speed isn’t as important as other things, like staying on the field.
Also, don’t the Colts have to set an 80 man roster pretty soon? There will probably be 6 or 7 others released pretty soon.
by smonroe on May 3, 2010 4:53 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Explaining that change...
And that drafting better players in later drafts or otherwise signing them through free agency, doesn’t play for BBS. A draft is evaluated in a vacuum for him, 2007 draft picks 1-9… only 4 left… only one starter… one who probably won’t stick this year… one injured a year ago = suck draft.
For me, the story is far more complex than that, for 2007 and any draft.
Hughes, like it or not, was drafted for CB depth (not unlike this year’s draft). He played for two years, sparingly in a defensive role, primarily in a ST role (what most back-ups do) and he was a strong ST contributor. He made one or two solid plays defensively as well.
Something happened in 2009, head coach and defensive coordinator changed, the Colts drafted a corner they hoped would replace Marlin Jackson in the starting lineup and be a key contributor as Jackson entered his contract year, he was stellar (Jackson was coming off of injury-played 2008).
An undrafted free agent CB joined the squad and far exceeded any expectations to make the squad… that resulted in two CBs on the roster who would both eventually start multiple games and no room left for Hughes as former 2nd Round selection Tim Jennings would round out the “functional” corner depth. Never a starter, therefore low on the grading totem pole… despite multiple circumstances that led to his eventual release.
Roy Hall was an experimental pick, with the physical tools to bring something to the Colts receiving corps it never had before. The “can’t catch” claims are somewhat superficial as he had such a small sample size it’s hard to know what he could do and by all counts he was suggested his hands vastly improved in the summer leading up to 2009. What killed him was injuries. I suppose you can call that a bad pick, but predicting injuries is not something I can claim as a skill. Maybe Polian should be able to.
Pitcock was an important part of our DT rotation in 2007 and was a player that I would assume most fans were excited to see in 2008 after his year to develop. His abrupt and unforeseeable retirement from football caught everyone, I would assume, by surprise. Maybe Polian and Co. should have been able to foresee that too? Either way, grading the pick as bad, now, is somewhat silly given the circumstances but again, in a vacuum it makes sense.
Coe belongs in the project department and was also derailed primarily due to a string of injuries.
2007
2 Year 3rd WR with amazing potential whose performances in key situations helped the Colts win some big games. Known for great hands, route running, speed and elusiveness after the catch. Harrison’s retirement opened the door for a true break-out season for a freak injury to end his season early.
2 Year starting LT, probably one of the best back-up LTs in the league, and a player who helped the Colts offensive line allow the 4th and 7th lowest sacks of any team in the NFL. Charlie Johnson’s development, along with injuries and other concerns saw him lose his starting job. His future is not yet known. Either way, his role was absolutely imperative as Glenn abruptly retired before his rookie season began.
2 Year starting LB, led the team in tackles in his second year as a starter and 3rd year in the league, a part of the most talented LB group the Colts have seen since Washington/Thornton.
2 Year special teams contributor, one of the best on the team, with some situational time on defense, replaced by two eventual starting caliber CBs in 2009 after a defensive coordinator and head coach change.
1 Year key contributor on the defensive line who abruptly retired before his sophomore season began.
3 Failed project/developmental players, 2 to strings of injuries (Coe/Hall and Condren).
2 Year key contributor along the defensive line, and one year back-up defensive end, without which the defense would have been in shambles due to the abrupt retirement of an aforementioned player. Replaced after the Colts brought in Muir, Johnson, and Foster (all larger DTs, more suited to play DT, and a part of the best defensive line the Colts have seen in a few years).
The point is… sometimes better players come along and win spots, sometimes injuries or other issues happen that cannot be foreseen. Regardless, there is much more to the story and the team got key contributions in multiple phases of the game for a period of 2 years since the 2007 draft from 5 of their nine picks and important contributions from another for one season before he retired. NFL = not for long for a reason. To call it a “D” in my mind… 3 years later, is harsh, short-sighted, and fails to examine the whole story.
Thanks to MarkFive05 I have a new theme video that I hope you all will remember me by: BAM BAM
by bamock on May 3, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
So should the Colts bench Bob Sanders for Melvin Bullitt?
Because the Colts almost won a Super Bowl with Bullitt even though Sanders is clearly the better player Should the Saints start Bushrod over Brown even though Brown is the better LT? They won the Super Bowl with Bushrod starting!
That’s a stupid argument that makes no sense at all. You’ve clearly forgotten how good of a player Anthony Gonzalez is and how much Peyton liked him. Garcon is a nice WR, but he’s not better than Gonzalez or even Collie. Garcon was very inconsistent last year, and you must have forgotten the horrible drop in the Super Bowl. Garcon’s hands suck. Gonzalez has hands of glue.
Polar bear boxers
by Colts Homer on May 3, 2010 5:03 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
umm CH
do you not remember BBS saying at the start of last year that it was Bullitt’s job and Sanders had to start out part time and take it from him?
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
Just how deeply can your senses be wrong? With some VR goggles, a camera and a touch on the back researchers were able to overcome a person's sense of being inside their own body.
Yes
But I’m hoping the PCP had worn off since then.
Polar bear boxers
by Colts Homer on May 3, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I think that would be a "no."
Rec’d.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on May 3, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
BBS...
Did the Colts hire you as the WR coach all of a sudden?
There is nothing we know right now. NOTHING. Right now, everything is pure speculation. Only time will tell.
Pure speculation means nothing is definite. Gonzo may or may not have lost his starting job. It’s simply your opinion right now. Don’t act like it’s a fact.
University of Pennsylvania '14
I
STILL don’t like that he’s related to Norv…baaaaaddd mojo….
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on May 3, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't like
That he’s the guy who was able to throw out the most pathetic offense last year with the Bears.
Polar bear boxers
Garcon v Gonzo
I guess we’re going into another round of this. Did Garcon do a much better job filling in for Gonzo than alot of us thought? Yes. I know I was horrified when I saw Gonzo go down and thought our passing game was suddenly gutted. However, Garcon still has a LONG way to go before he is a starting-caliber WR. Is he big and fast? Yes. But he has serious drop issues he needs to address before he gets back into the starting line-up. I’m telling you, the current WR depth chart has Wayne and Gonzo on the outside with Collie in the slot and Garcon as a back-up/rotation. Now, if he can improve his hands and beat Gonzo in camp, then I’ll eat my words. Till then, Wayne and Gonzo start on the outside.
by 2ndBlueGeneration on May 3, 2010 5:18 PM EDT reply actions
Some of you people annoy me.
BBS is doing us all a wonderful service here, well, not me, because I don’t post here, but all of you, he’s doing you (a service). Look, I think its clear, by any measure, that Garcon is not only faster, but the better, more complete receiver.
Let us look at those measures, shall we?
Pierre Garcon:
He ran his 40-yard dash time in 4.48 seconds at the combine. That’s fast, yo.
His footballoutsider stats (which I’ll use for comparison in this situation) are as follows:
DYAR – 92 (46th best in league)
DVOA – -0.4% (That’s a negative sign in front) (43rd in the league)
52% catch rate.
46th and 43rd best while catching half his balls (better than some women I know), that’s starter level…
right?
Here are Anthony Gonzalez’s pitiful numbers:
He walked his 40-yard dash time in 4.44 seconds.
His FBO numbers for 2008:
DYAR – 242 (13th best)
DVOA – 26.2% (3rd best)
72% Catch rate
Okay, clearly, that’s horrible, but its a small sample, so lets look at 2007 and see if he could redeem himself in his rookie year (and we’ll compare it to Garcon’s ‘first year as a starter’ and assume that Garcon was a ‘Rookie’ even though he wasn’t)
2007:
DYAR – 240 (13th (I’m sensing a pattern))
DVOA – 43.7% (1st, by a long fucking shot)
73% Catch rate.
Okay, so clearly Gonzalez is inconsistent, is a top 10 receiver in the league when healthy, and would have the best catch % of anyone on the team.
Can we get a punter for him?
I hope?
Ham sammich?
An Alexander Ovechkin signed jock strap?
Sigh?
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
by SpazMo on May 3, 2010 5:18 PM EDT reply actions 15 recs
Nice.
You’ve been missed, btw.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on May 3, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I miss myself too
but I record my voice and play it on an endless loop when I get lonely.`
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
Hey! I gotta try that sometime...
I’m sick of hearing all the other voices talking to me; I’d rather hear my own!

------
"How can a pickup truck contain enough mass to unfold into a towering machine? I say if Ringling Brothers can get 15 clowns into a Volkswagen, anything is possible."
thought you wanted me to make a recording of my voice for you...
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
PS
I feel like I should have bolded or underlined or italicized some things there, but I didn’t, so anyhow, I want to put a disclaimer in there:
I don’t care if you like DVOA or not. I’m comparing two wide receivers using the same measures. Whether or not those measures are 100% accurate shouldn’t be the issue, since they are being applied evenly to both players. Also, the fact that one player handles his balls 21% better, which isn’t a ‘sabermetric’ stat dohingy thing, but, instead, just black and white fact, is a pretty big fucking deal from someone that’s supposed to be a #2/#3 receiving target (if you’d like to get into the semantics of whether or not Clark is the #2).
But fancy this, if Garcon caught 75% of his balls last year (jesus, the insane high school humour with this never gets old) how many more man coverages from LBs would Clark have been able to abuse? Last year teams were STILL loading up on Clark and Wayne despite the fact that Pierre Garcon is the greatest Haitian receiver in the history of Haitian receivers. I mean, let’s all get in the Spaz Way Back Machine and remember the end of the 2nd quarter of a little game I like to call the Dinner Plate, if one #2 receiver named Pierre Garcon catches a 15 yard dig route, the Colts win that game, instead he drops a perfect pass, the Saints kick a field goal, get the onside kick, and the hair pulling commences. But hey, LETS PENCIL HIM IN FOR #2.
He’ll be a force with Darren Sproles in the backfield.
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
by SpazMo on May 3, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
damnit
I still forgot to do my insert different bold and italicized words
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
You're my favourite brazilian colts fan, btw
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
Also
where does this love for Garcon come from? I get that he’s handsome. That he seems to have a good personality. That he has an edge and toughness to him, and that he was on a team that lost in the Super Bowl, but, uhm, wat?
What, exactly, did he do that made anyone think he was better than Garcon? Other than listening to Polian’s machinations, does anyone believe that Gonzalez is fragile?
He.
Tore.
His.
Knee.
Up.
Do we need to cover any other receivers that lost years off their lives because of a torn knee? It’s not like Joseph Addai who is out every other week. A FREAK ACCIDENT TORE THE LIGAMENTS IN HIS KNEE.
He attempted to come back.
He wasn’t able to.
A WR HAS to be able to make cuts. He has to trust his body to make those cuts. If Gonzo came back last year and didn’t feel he was strong enough to, he would have been cutting off routes and avoiding contact. So he would have killed the team to satisfy his pride? Awesome. How about he comes back 100% and goes back to being a top 10 WR that catches 3/4ths of the balls thrown to him (thats 1.5 people keeping up with the dick jokes)
Gonzo did the same exact thing that Garcon did last year – filled in for a WR on this team that tore up his knee unexpectedly.
GOD IM IN A RAGE.
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
by SpazMo on May 3, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Okay, I'm better now
The story of me
(Warning, perhaps NSFW audio, unless you work in a pharmacy(No Cussing, just a description of me that you may not want your boss to hear))
I've missed you sooooo much!!!
I’m always glad to read your comments! I love them!
Sail on silvergirl, Sail on by. Your time has come to shine. All your dreams are on their way. See how they shine. If you need a friend I'm sailing right behind. Like a bridge over troubled water I will ease your mind. Like a bridge over troubled water I will ease your mind. - Simon and Garfunkel
You just can't seem to stop.
Awe.Some.
"It's the greatest job in the world until Peyton comes off the field and you think his thumb might be broken and there's three minutes left in the AFC Championship Game and you're down by three to New England and you haven't taken a snap all year. Yeah, it's a great job until that point." - Jim Sorgi
by gizzardfanny on May 4, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
You get a rec for me
Our heads may be bloody, but they are unbowed. We will be back next year better than ever!
Indianapolis Colts News and Updates
Man, I hate Ovechkin....
"If you define your personality as creative, it only means you understand what is perceived to be creative by the world at large, so you're really just following a rote creative template. That's the opposite of creativity. Everybody is wrong about everything, just about all the time.
But ANYWAY..."
— Chuck Klosterman
by Addai Another Aday on May 3, 2010 7:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Brilliant.
Rec’d.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Finals suck.
Maybe it doesn't have to be such a big deal...
When there are 2 WRs on the field, yes, it will matter whether Gonzalez or Garcon is officially the #2… but we run a base 3WR-1TE look, do we not?
Most of the time, all three of them will be on the field… unless a) someone comes out of nowhere to steal a starting spot, or b) Gonzalez’ knee turns out to still be an issue.
I'll take Collie over Garcon
In a 3WR set any day. And I love Garcon.
Thanks to MarkFive05 I have a new theme video that I hope you all will remember me by: BAM BAM
heh
the latest craze in the nation: proclaiming a player to be the next Welkah
"We'll put em in the pot, shake it up and see what comes out." - Howard Mudd
"Nothing's complicated if you understand it." - Tom Moore
"It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law." - Hofstadter's Law
Yeah, there should be an army of Welkers in the next couple of seasons
w/the number of people who have been proclaimed to be so.
I see you missed the FanShot.
"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir
Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Finals suck.
deceptively fast, cerebral, mature, hard working, fan favorite
what’d I miss? There have to be more cliches for him….
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
Don't know about that
Collie and Garcon should split. They are entirely different players, both that would work well with Wayne/Gonzo/Clark. I just think that Garcon gives us something more needed than a Stokley type. Gonzo can play a Stokley role, as can Clark now.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Maybe...
But I think I’d rather see Garcon in 4WR sets and rotating outside and not inside. Maybe that means Gonzo stays in but goes in between outside and inside but I have a hard time with that too. I think there will be a lot more rotating this year and I would imagine the options we will see may be endless. Hell, Clark may even come off the field to put in Garcon in his spot with Garcon’s blocking abilities. It should be fun to watch.
But for those keeping score, in my opinion the best 3 receivers on the team are Wayne, Gonzalez, and Collie… in that order. Garcon is a deep threat we can bring in to spread the field, a great blocker on run downs (I’d have him in instead of Gonzo if we plan on running), etc. Very very useful player, key player, will Garcon be. Better WR than the others? I don’t think so.
FWIW.
Thanks to MarkFive05 I have a new theme video that I hope you all will remember me by: BAM BAM
I think that those are the three best
but I think the optimal four “receivers” (w/ Clark) in terms of optimizing matchups are Wayne, Gonzo, Garcon, Clark. Garcon would probably go outside, shifting Gonzo into the slot.
If the team wants to go 4-wide, then either Clark or Addai have to come off the field, which I think isn’t as good as keeping those two on the field. This is a great problem to have, but its a problem. Also, knowing the Colts one of the receivers will miss some time, so Collie (or Garcon) will get playing time.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
I understand
Where we differ is, I don’t see a reason to ever not have your best players on the field… unless it’s situational. Either way, it’s all good.
Thanks to MarkFive05 I have a new theme video that I hope you all will remember me by: BAM BAM
I just think Garcon would be more useful.
My best comparison would be if we go to nickel, do we the third safety (Bullitt or Sanders) or the nickel corner (Lacey) even though the third safety is the better player.
Gonzo and Clark can do everything Collie can. No one can really do what Garcon does.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
I guess
but there are two players that can do what Collie does.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Collie is like Clark
But I don’t think Gonzalez is that much like him other than they both have great hands. Collie is a major threat to go deep or be a solid 3rd down target for Peyton.
Polar bear boxers
Collie was the best 3rd down target we had last year
he was always that guy pulling in the 3rd and longs to keep a drive kicking. HUGE Collie fan.
insert signature here
Gonzalez is just different.
He’s hard to describe, actually a lot like Wayne.
I think that Garcon offers more matchup problems than Collie. If he gets the dropsies again, then bring Collie in, because we can’t have that again.
My guess is they’ll probably just do a drive-by-drive rotation or what not. Maybe putting Collie in for 3rd downs.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
I'll say this for BBS
he’s spawned some healthy discussion with this one.
"We'll put em in the pot, shake it up and see what comes out." - Howard Mudd
"Nothing's complicated if you understand it." - Tom Moore
"It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law." - Hofstadter's Law
i don't think it is healthy
See my post above. He is clearly doing this to provoke the outrage, and once again I fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
What has become really clear to me is that BBS is a very talented blog leader. His writing not so great, but man does he keep people coming back for more.
It is just making me dislike this blog though, if I weren’t an addict I’d stop coming back (and if the other writers weren’t so good).
I didn't fall for it - I haven't posted anything on this thread
DAMN!
How can you not love a team that does this?
"now-awful 2007 NFL Draft"
Come on, it was a solid B.
Just kidding. Thanks for providing some non-homer critical analysis now and then, BBS. That’s not easy to find in Colt land.
non-homer and unsubstantiated/not backed up are not the same thing.
I have no problem grading any Colts decision poorly, that is not what bothers me at all. I just want to know what the criteria are and how they really compare to other teams and other years. That is what makes something critical analysis. This is just worthless blathering.
I also don’t like using lies to back up your claim. Claiming that Gonzo is not the starter is just as bad as saying “an anonymous source within the Colts says that they hate the 2007 draft.” Neither can be proven, both are appeals to a higher source, but in the first the higher source is BBS himself.
It’s sloppy and lazy, and I expect better. The other writers here provide better.
by kasey_junk on May 3, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
What is a "B"?
Seems like report cards used to always call “C” average, “B” good, and “A” excellent. In practice it was usually “B” average, “A” very good, “C” poor, “D” enough effort to avoid failing. So which are we using here? I’d call the 2007 a bit below average by league-wide standards. Probably a B- or C+ if B is average, C- if C is supposed to be average.
Two cents, upcoming:
Look, everybody likes Garçon. He’s a great story: Late pick, small school, on no one’s radar during the draft. Helps fill in for a terrific but IR’ed receiver on a Super Bowl team. What’s not to admire about that? I do like the guy and everything he’s done on the Colts.
Also: In general I actually defend the sort of stance that BBS thinks he’s making here, that the guy who played his way into a starting job should have the damn starting job, end of argument. Problem is, I also think BBS (and no offense, but everyone else here) is making an error in judging who should be starting. Why? Because:
The season hasn’t started yet. Hell, training camp hasn’t started yet.
Given that, how can anyone tell who deserves the starting job? Neither has had a chance to prove that it’s their job this upcoming year. This isn’t the case of Manning, who barring an unfortunate car accident or a spill down a flight of stairs is practically guaranteed to be the starter. This is a case where last year’s starter at a given position wasn’t determined by play, but rather by injury. Now, if Gonzo comes back healthy and Garçon’s ready to make a case that he should be the man up front instead of the next man up, the starter position will be determined by who earns the spot in camp, practices, and early games. What it will not, and frankly should not be determined on is past performance in this past season. It’s not a proper comparison, not when one of the players stats are effectively zeroed due to injury. In this case, past peformance isn’t telling anyone what they need to know, so the coaching staff is going to have to let it all shake out in training camp. No one knows if Garçon’s ready to improve his catch rate and decision making until everyone sees him in practices. He may improve, he may plateau, and he may even regress (heaven forbid!). And ditto Gonzo: Nobody has any clue yet whether he’ll come back 100%, whether he’ll actually be better with a rested year and a chip on his shoulder, or whether he’ll end up doubting his knee and doing worse. None of us has any idea at this point. So while we know that it’s BS that every player earns his starting job all over again at the start of the year (as if Sorgi was ever that big a threat to Manning’s position while he was here), we also know that this is a case where genuine ambiguity exists, and neither choice is guaranteed. So, they’ll play it out in training camp. And in practices. And the coaches will only then determine who deserves the starting spot. What probably won’t happen and in my opinion shouldn’t happen is that one of the gets penciled in this early without play (or unforseen circumstance) being the basis of the decision. The coaching staff shouldn’t do it, and while we do it for fun, we shouldn’t take our pontifications too seriously given that we’re not seeing how either player is right at this moment, let alone how they’ll be in a few months. We only know what we saw the last time either of them played. And it’s obviously not enough to make a clear determination on; if it were, we wouldn’t be seeing these posts.
The starter will be determined at some later date. It’s neither Gonzo’s nor Garçon’s to lose, not at this point. It’s either of theirs to earn.
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"How can a pickup truck contain enough mass to unfold into a towering machine? I say if Ringling Brothers can get 15 clowns into a Volkswagen, anything is possible."
Maybe I'm being thick again...
But isn’t Collie playing in Gonzo’s normal spot? I mean I know there was talk about moving Gonzo to Harrison’s old spot permanently (which Gonzo played in last year). As I recall though Gonzo usually played slot in 3 WR sets with Wayne on the left and Harrison on the right. I know the idea may still be to move Gonzo out to Harrison’s spot, but wouldn’t it be more prudent to put him in the slot where he has played most of his time and where he would probably be more comfortable? Again, maybe I’m just being dense but I would have thought it more likely to have a battle for the slot position. I think at this point its kind of useless arguing second, third, fourth in the depth chart. I’m willing to just call a 3 way tie for second and play 4 wide with Clark being another receiver and Addai being the dump off option. I really don’t think even the Jets and their bloated secondary could defend that.
"I shall not fear. Fear is the Mind killer. Fear is the little death that leads to total obliteration. I will face my fear and let it pass through me. When the fear is gone, there shall be nothing. Only I shall remain."
-Frank Herbert "Dune" (1965)
don't have the numbers on me
but i believe gonzo was actually more productive on the outside.
Can anyone confirm or deny that?
"We'll put em in the pot, shake it up and see what comes out." - Howard Mudd
"Nothing's complicated if you understand it." - Tom Moore
"It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law." - Hofstadter's Law
I agree with you.
I do think he was more productive when starting in Harrison’s place, i just thought he played in the slot most of the time. I think that was the reasoning behind wanting to move him to the outside to take over the right side. I just don’t know if that would still be a good idea or not if we are unsure about the strength in his knee. I think by the start of pre-season that his knee should be at full strength, but I don’t know whether it is better to move him outside since he’s been off for a year and might as well switch him, or whether he should be kept in the slot because his route running will be more important than his sprinting speed. I’m sure both have merit and weaknesses. I’m sure the training camp battles will help sort out this glorious mess. Atleast we aren’t argung about 3 really crappy recievers and 1 good one. We are talking about 2 great receivers and 3 really really good ones.
"I shall not fear. Fear is the Mind killer. Fear is the little death that leads to total obliteration. I will face my fear and let it pass through me. When the fear is gone, there shall be nothing. Only I shall remain."
-Frank Herbert "Dune" (1965)
If I remember
back in ’07 he played outside mostly, but back then he was the #2. In ’08 he was the #3 and played mostly in the slot, especially if Marv and Wayne were on the field together with him.
He would seem to more of a slot guy in a 3-wide, but he’s really good anywhere. I think Garcon is better outside.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
4-wide
means that either Clark or Addai are off.
Wayne, Gonzo, Garcon, Collie, Clark and Addai cannot be on the field all at the same time.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
You ever heard of "tackle eligible"?
Now, all we gotta do is get Dallas to give up his 44 jersey
. And convert the guy to a tackle. 
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"How can a pickup truck contain enough mass to unfold into a towering machine? I say if Ringling Brothers can get 15 clowns into a Volkswagen, anything is possible."
I mean
I would rather put Garcon at tackle. Remember that stiff-arm to DRC?
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
OMG... I'm picturing it now... stiff arm to the DE... cold cocking the OLB...

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"How can a pickup truck contain enough mass to unfold into a towering machine? I say if Ringling Brothers can get 15 clowns into a Volkswagen, anything is possible."
with the fang mouthpiece
I do love Garcon’s attitude, if he can just keep the burner on simmer and avoid 15 yarders….
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.
Hasn't been Hall been "released" before?
Only to find that he wasn’t actually released? He is still listed on the Colts roster.
by the_iowa_hawkeye on May 4, 2010 12:26 PM EDT reply actions
I thought he was gone a while ago and
last week when his name came up I posted my stunnedness…. to coin a phrase… that he was still around.
I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.

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