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Indy Star's Mike Chappell weighs in on Anthony Gonzalez and Austin Collie

In a recent Ask the Experts update from the IndyStar.com, Colts beat writer Mike Chappell weighed in on the team's wide receiving corps depth. Mike's comments on the subject of Anthony Gonzalez's status with the team was consistent with some opinions you may or may not have read from yours truly:

My current pecking order has Reggie Wayne and Pierre Garcon being the outside starters with Anthony Gonzalez ahead of Austin Collie as the slot receiver. I just like the deep speed Garcon provides on the outside, even though I really like Gonzo's after-the-catch skills. Gonzo said he's been assured by the coaching staff that he'll be given an opportunity to compete with Garcon for the No. 2 spot alongside Wayne. We'll see how that shakes out.

Gee Mike, where were you a month-and-a-half ago when I was getting my ass handed to me by the readers of this blog for writing essentially the same thing you did:

I know this next declaration is a bit controversial around here, but as of right now last season's opening day starter at wideout (Anthony Gonzalez) is probably the team's fourth WR on the depth chart. The reason for this is players like Pierre Garcon and Austin Collie have developed faster than Gonzo has, while Reggie Wayne continues to build a potential Hall of Fame resume as a primary receiver for this team.

I got smacked around pretty hard for saying that. Maybe Mike didn't come to my defense at the time because he was secretly enjoying watching me get roasted alive by you guys.

The one difference between Mike's opinion and mine is that Mike feels Gonzo is going to beat out Collie as the slot receiver. I don't see that happening. Collie seemed much more comfortable, and more effective, at slot in 2009 than Gonzo ever was playing that position in 2007 and 2008. Collie caught 77 balls for 917 yards and 9 TDs as a rookie in 2009 playing most of the year at slot. A season like that would be a career year for Gonzo, whose never caught more than 5 TDs in one season.

For me, I see more upside with Collie at slot. Gonzo is more effective playing outside. But, in order for him to do that, he has to show he's better than Reggie Wayne or Pierre Garcon. Right now, no one seems to think he is.

Matt Bowen at National Football Post shares Mike's opinion:

Caldwell will want competition in camp at every position, but when you look at the way the Colts run their offense with Peyton Manning in their three-WR sets, Gonzalez still is the best option inside of the numbers. He can make more plays against a nickel corner and when we talk about the number of route combinations that the Colts run out of their top offensive personnel groupings, Gonzalez will make a bigger impact for this team as the No.3 behind Wayne and Garcon.

I think Collie has done enough to warrant playing over Gonzo at slot. Look no further than Collie's best game last year: A 7 catches, 123 yard, 1 TD masterpiece against the NY Jets in the AFC Championship Game. Collie averaged nearly 18 yards a catch in that game. Remember, when the Colts drafted him in April 2009, they saw him primarily as the slot receiver. And when you play big in big games, as Collie has done recently, it's hard to justify benching you just because a veteran has returned from injury.

Like the offensive line, the sub-plot of "Who will play where?" in the wide receiving corps is a story we will watch closely during training camp.

Oh, and if you are tired of me bringing up the "Gonzo is the fourth WR" stuff, I remind you that I actually didn't bring up this recent round of discussions. Mike Chappell and Matt Bowen did. And just as PhilB said back on June 9th, the consensus from people who work closely with the Colts is that Gonzo is no longer a starter. Pierre Garcon has supplanted him.

Like it or not, this seems to be a rare case where a starter really did lose his job due to injury. Had Gonzo not gotten hurt in Week One, and had he gone on to have a similar season in 2009 as Garcon did, he'd be the unquestioned starter going into training camp (as he was last year).

This year, he's fighting to regain his old slot position, and if he continues to have more injury setbacks that may or may not have something to do with the knee problems he dealt with all last season, he will not beat out Austin Collie, who played in all 19 games last season. Sports Illustrated listed Gonzo on their All-Injury Prone Team last week, saying he went "from potential star to a potential seat on the Colts bench."

2010 is a big year for Gonzo. He must prove he can play a full season and is 100% healthy. A limited role, scaled back from his usual workload, could help him achieve that.

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Could you show me a post where you said Gonzo should be the #3 WR

ahead of Collie?

Basically, what you’re doing is cherry picking. SEE!!! THis guy says Garcon should be #2!!! But I say Collie should be #3, so I’ll take a little from column A, and a little from column B, and with that you get egg roll.

Shake made me do it

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by SpazMo on Jun 28, 2010 12:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Actually, he is saying;

 Gonzo is number 3 ahead of Collie with a chance to regain the number 2 spot. All the other talk was him reinforcing this point. BBS has been steadfast on this topic, I will again respectfully disagree with his position. Gonzo will be at least the number 3 reciever on our roster. His contract, experience, hands, quickness and run after catch abilities assure his place in the starting line up. I feel for Austin in this whole story, he came up from nowhere and had an impressive year. The silver lining in this is, Collie will reagain his starting spot in another year. I dont know that we will be able to pay Gonzo after next year.

If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?

by whardiek on Jun 29, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

And, to be quite frank

Both of them say Gonzo would be best ON the field, something you’re vast knowledge has ever agreed with. Further, both of them point out that they like Garcon’s game breaking ability at #2. That’s fine. (Redacted) Here’s another point everyone is missing (retyped it in a nicer tone):

Anthony Gonzalez has never had a full training camp and season as the #2 WR. We do not know what his game breaking ability is. He’s VERY good after the catch. He’s a better route runner than Garcon. He ran a 40 time faster than Garcon. You’ve never seen him go into camp as a flanker and play during the season as a flanker. During the year where he PLAYED #2, Harrison got injured during the season. So Gonzo was thrust into the #2 role while basically practicing/learning slot receiver.

Further, Garcon has never practiced at anything BUT flanker, because he doesn’t run the routes to be a slot receiver, and he had a full season on the bench to learn the position.

AND HE STILL DROPPED 48% OF THE PASSES THROWN HIS DIRECTION.

Shake made me do it

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by SpazMo on Jun 28, 2010 12:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Where are you getting he dropped 48% of his passes?

The Stats LLC only has one Colt on the list for most passes dropped and that’s Clark with 9.

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=232&year=

I think you mean he has a completion percent of 52% (actually 51.1%).

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8982&team=11

But, you will notice he only has five drops. Completion percent is a pretty bad stat to go by, because it assumes (1) all passes are of the same quality, (2) all passes are of the same catch-ability, (3) all defenders defend equally, and (4) all WRs have the same opportunity to catch the ball. It’s a really general stat that removes all the nuances actually in the game.

by ActionOxford on Jun 28, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry

Yes, I meant completion percentage. I knew this as soon as I hit enter, but I take my cue from BBS, accuracy is a suggestion, not a requirement.

And, yea, completion percentage is a horrible stat to go by. Since, ya know, every receiver has a different QB throwing to them. I mean, if it was the same receiver, then we could, reasonably, make the assumption that the QB throwing has approximately the same accuracy to every position over a season-long sample. Especially if that QB is a future hall of famer.

But in this case, you’re right, having different QBs throwing to different WRs really makes it hard to figure something like this out.

FWIW, no one on the Colts has had a completion percentage even close to 52%, except for reggie wayne, in his rookie yea, where he was used sparingly.

Shake made me do it

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by SpazMo on Jun 28, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry

I’m on Dia’s period right now.

Shake made me do it

100% Grade A Shower Bag

by SpazMo on Jun 28, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Two things though

1) Totally small sample size

2) HE SUCKED. There was one game where, I think, I might have been drunk, he dropped like 3 passes that hit him in the chest, and they were pretty perfect passes, and he was like falling over while catching them, for no reason.

I had never gone from being SO excited about a FA pickup to absolutely bummed about it before.

And, again, sorry for being so pissy towards you, displaced PMS.

Shake made me do it

100% Grade A Shower Bag

by SpazMo on Jun 28, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree.

Don’t feel bad, I was excited about him too. I don’t know what I was thinking. The dude is turrible.

by ActionOxford on Jun 28, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

The 52%, are you just talking rookie year?

No one on the Colts had a completion percentage close to 52%, are you just talking rookie year? I thought Anthony Gonzalez had better numbers than that in his rookie year plus Austin Collie did better as well. Here you go:

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=9391&team=11

Austin Collie – 67% for last year

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/216244-the-nfls-ten-most-efficient-wide-receivers#page/7

Anthony Gonzalez – 72%

by chad72 on Jun 28, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, just his rookie year

I thought thats what I had said. The only single year total that Football Outsiders covered, was Reggie Wayne’s rookie year. ANd like I said, he didn’t get close to the attempts that Garcon got.

Shake made me do it

100% Grade A Shower Bag

by SpazMo on Jun 28, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

But the above...

…stats are for Collie’s rookie year and it is 67% completion.

Anthony Gonzalez’s rookie year was 67% as well, his second year was 72%

by chad72 on Jun 28, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

No clue what you're talking about

Last year Garcon had a completion % of 52%.

No one has come close to 52% since Reggie Wayne in his rookie year.

Unless you’re telling me that 67% is close to 52%?

Shake made me do it

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by SpazMo on Jun 28, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

and I'm wrong, anyhow

since I forgot the season that got Marvin Harrison released.

Shake made me do it

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by SpazMo on Jun 28, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Relativity...

You have been understood as meaning, no one has had a completion percentage as “high as 52%” when you meant that no one has had a completion percentage as “low as 52%.” I think. Maybe? No?

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by bamock on Jun 28, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh, good

I’m glad this turned into a semantics course.

Yes, again, I’m wrong.

I was clearly saying that 52% was high in all of my posts. I can understand the confusion.

Shake made me do it

100% Grade A Shower Bag

by SpazMo on Jun 28, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

No semantics course intended at all...

I just thought it was a misunderstanding that I could aid in resolving. If I failed in the effort, I apologize.

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by bamock on Jun 28, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait

I just reread what I wrote… No where did I say ‘as high as’. I said, ‘no one has had a completion percentage close to 52%’.

I’m clearly painting it in a negative light.

I take back the semantics comments. I have no clue what chad72 is talking about.

Shake made me do it

100% Grade A Shower Bag

by SpazMo on Jun 28, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand...

I think, though could be wrong, that is where the disconnect was for Chad. He read it differently. I was trying to help :) Not to pick at what you said for being wrong, incorrect, or poorly spoken.

Thanks to MarkFive05 I have a new theme video that I hope you all will remember me by: BAM BAM
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by bamock on Jun 28, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

You brought on a vertigo attack just read this (LOL)

Please Read My 1st paragraph of profile to realize my multiple disabilities making it hard to type correctly if there are many typos etc

by bayone on Jun 28, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I appreciate that help

Yes, it was clearly a semantics thing. I read it differently, exactly like you inferred. Your attempt to clarify the confusion was certainly warranted on my part and validated. At least, we are on the same page now. It was an attempt to illuminate Garcon’s low completion percentage by SpazMo and was misunderstood by me, I just went by the numbers and gave numbers higher than 52%. Oops on my side, at least we now have the numbers right, thanks to various URLs. I would not have done the research if not for the semantics confusion, that is the bright side I will take away from this.

by chad72 on Jun 28, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gonzo's speed and health

The arguments change based on whether Gonzo’ speed and health have returned to him and he is 100%. If not healthy, heck yeah, he is #4.

But making a statement that Gonzo is #4 before news of his injury and setback leaked out at the OTAs, and then coming back to say I told you so is well, lucky, at best, BBS. The arguments people were making for Gonzo to be better than a #4 was based on 100% health and speed returning, which has not been shown to be the case.

The Colts had about 45% of their passing yards in yards after catch last year, the highest in the Manning era. Now, the flip side is, did we lose an extra prototypical Z flanker in Gonzo when he went down that caused most of our offense to be YAC, or was it that our O-line pass blocking is not as good as advertised that Manning never had the time for those routes to progress?

At this point, Gonzo’s progress in the depth chart and playing time solely depends on how well his health and speed get back to 100%. When he was 100%, I felt he posed the danger of going deep as a slot WR that had to be factored in as well. Collie, you could almost say for definite that he is either a YAC or find-the-soft-spot-in-the-zone slot WR. I do not see him as a deep burner against any nickel CB, Gonzo will give us that option if he lines up against most nickel CBs in the league.

by chad72 on Jun 28, 2010 12:30 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

To add to that...

Collie and Garcon never had to worry about their targets and catches being reduced by a Mr. Marvin Harrison in any of their playing years, just a tidbit to note.

by chad72 on Jun 28, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope, I am implying this

When both Wayne and Harrison are there, Gonzo’s catches and targets as a #3 were obviously going to be much lesser. It is almost like you have 2 go-to-guys and then the third one.

With Collie and Garcon, with both of them having their first TC with Peyton, Wayne was just 1 go-to-guy and there was no established #2 when Gonzo went down, that is what I was getting at, Wayne was the #2 when Harrison was there. Let us remember, Peyton did not attend TC in 2008 in Garcon’s rookie year which did set back his development a bit plus Wayne spending one-on-one time with Collie and Garcon in 2009 helped too. Harrison never did that kind of thing, taking someone under his wing like Wayne did with Garcon and Collie. I am not sure if Wayne did that with Gonzo (what he did with Garcon and Collie) when Harrison was around either.

by chad72 on Jun 28, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depending on viewpoint, Clark was a # 2 last year ??

Please Read My 1st paragraph of profile to realize my multiple disabilities making it hard to type correctly if there are many typos etc

by bayone on Jun 28, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Could be a valid case

Yeah, that is a valid #2 scenario – Clark.

Clark was there along with Wayne and Harrison during Gonzo’s 1st year.

Clark was there just with Wayne during Collie and Garcon’s 1st productive year.

I am trying to understand the difference, which is mainly lack of Marvin Harrison.

I am just trying to make a point that in all likelihood, Gonzo could have produced just as good numbers as a #2 if healthy had he not gone down in game 1. Now, all we have is speculation on that front. I just want Colts fans to give Gonzo the benefit of doubt that I think he has earned a little bit of with his first 2 years having caught 65% or more of his passes both years, that is all.

by chad72 on Jun 28, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

This makes me think of something similar in New England

Brady goes down in game 1 and Cassell has a good season replacing him, racking up 11 wins.

Clearly Cassell is better than Brady, and cheaper. His developmental progress has been much faster than Brady’s.

Look how that thinking profited the Chiefs.

I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.

by Bobman on Jun 28, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Harrison helped mentor Garcon his rookie season.

I seem to remember an article where Garcon gave Marvin a shoutout for giving him some coaching and support his rookie season. I’m trying to find the article, but google is being most unhelpful.

by WaynesWorld on Jun 28, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow, I recall the opposite, at least from Reggie

who claimed he loved 88 but 88 was not exactly the mentor he might have been….

I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.

by Bobman on Jun 28, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I recall differently

I remember somewhere Harrison like him and helped school him, but that was 2 years back , memory not perfect

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by bayone on Jun 28, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

Garcon has often said Harrison was an active mentor.

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by Brad Wells on Jun 29, 2010 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let's first say I side with no one here

BBS, Chappell, Bowen. None of these men are on the Colts’ coaching staff. None of them are in any position to judge any player against another right now, given the lack of solid numbers on all three WR’s.

Right or wrong, reasoning behind BBS’s arguments are flawed. Citing journalists to back up statements instead of actual coaches’ words? Very trustworthy indeed.
Chappell states “We’ll see how that shakes out,” clearly admitting that his views could be wrong. BBS puts out his statements as facts, claiming stuff that only coaches know for sure. Let’s remember that this is the same guy who thought Tony Ugoh should be the LT a year ago, and the same guy proven flat out wrong by coaches.

Chappell is stating his opinions as opinions. BBS is declaring them as facts. Bowen comes close to almost saying them as facts but he has more credibility in such fields because he at least has experience in NFL.

Coaches will put the best group of men out on the field accordingly. Whatever may be the argument on this site or by any journalist, it won’t matter a bit.

University of Pennsylvania Class of '14

by Bluedude on Jun 28, 2010 12:57 PM EDT reply actions  

For me, I see more upside with Collie at slot. Gonzo is more effective playing outside. But, in order for him to do that, he has to show he’s better than Reggie Wayne or Pierre Garcon. Right now, no one seems to think he is.

What I believe is most frustrating as a reader is when statements like this are made. To me, completely disregarding the opinions of dozens who have blatantly disagreed about Gonzo being a superior receiver to Garçon, or inadvertently referring to those people and their opinions as “no one” is somewhat insulting and delivers an unfortunate message (intended or not).

I love this site and respect BBS, sometimes I don’t know if he says things like this on purpose and it reflects his perspective that he no longer feels that average Colts fans know as much or more about the Colts as experts or mainstream media sources or if it is a mistake.

I believe BBS thinks I come around to constantly criticize him or to betray his words encouraging me to create my own blog. That is not the case, I’m just shocked by it much of the time and surprised that he either does not catch it, does not realize how it sounds, or has lost the perspective that I thought he had previously. In short, I’m trying to help, not to hurt.

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by bamock on Jun 28, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

bamrock

By “nobody” I meant people who follow and work closely with the team (like Mike Chappell, PhilB, and other folks as yet unnamed). Not fans.

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by Brad Wells on Jun 28, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

However I will say Chappell, PhilB, are really no more than us as far as Fans.

Sure they write about the Colts and at times get a chance to do interviews and get info that the rest of us fans can not however most of the time they are nothing more than we other fans are. So in reality that “nobody” even in in this case you say not ment as such is talking about all of us. (just saying think about how things are perceived or may be perceived unless you really don’t care).

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by TheAngelsColts on Jun 28, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not necessarily true

Mike and Phil are very wired into the team, and the guys at National Football Post have contacts there as well. So, when they state an opinion, it’s usually a pretty informed opinion.

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by Brad Wells on Jun 28, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

And yet again

You show your flaw in the reasoning. None of those men are actual coaches. How many of them even have actual playing/coaching experience? Only a few.

Bowen, I respect more because he knows what it’s actually like out there. But the other guys you cite are journalists, nothing more. Sure, they may be “wired” into the team, but Colts coaches are not dumb enough to let too much info out to them. So in reality, the information they get is tiny fraction more than say, what you get compared to the reality.

Reality is their opinions, informed or not, are opinions. You are practically using hearsay to back up your statements. Not very persuading.

University of Pennsylvania Class of '14

by Bluedude on Jun 28, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bluedude

It doesn’t matter that they are “coaches” or not. In many cases, the information you get from them comes anonymously from the coaches!

Calm down, already. The opinions of people like Mike Chappell have weight, whether you like it or not. If you don’t like it, don’t read his stuff or mine. Go to Colts.com and read coaching transcripts all day, since they are the only people whose opinions you seem to trust.

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by Brad Wells on Jun 29, 2010 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

However the tiny bit of facts they may get from the team is so small the majority of the time

that there opinion is nothing more than others. Again you can deny what I say as how what you say such as the "Nobody comment but the fact is my statement is more factually than yours. You know why? it isn’t because I say so it is because the people on this board say so. The thing is it tends not to matter what the fans on this site think. They seem to be “Nobody’s” to you which is fine cause well your opinion isn’t what ultimately matters but some expect respect just saying. (knows this went off topic after like two sentences.)

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by TheAngelsColts on Jun 28, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

"The thing is it tends not to matter what the fans on this site think."

That’s just simply not true.

We have all kinds of features here that allow for fans to express themselves, from comments to FanPosts to FanShots. Just because I don’t agree with your opinion, or the opinions of a few vocal fans, does not mean the opinions of fans, in general, are tossed aside here.

Also, fans here are more than welcome to have their opinions on Anthony Gonzalez. However, it seems pretty clear that Gonzo is (at best) the slot receiver right now. This is what I have said since May, and between then and now we’ve had several media people write about how what I said in May was, in fact, a correct assessment of things.

Folks here can dismiss the opinions of PhilB and Mike Chappell all they want. I personally think that’s stupid, but people are people. I tend to value Phil and Mike’s assessment of the team a bit more than most other opinions. Unlike me, and most fans here, they are hardwired into the team.

So, to recap, I wrote that Gonzo was the fourth WR based on what people close to the team were telling me. I got roasted for saying this, as many felt Gonzo would win his old job back in camp. Since writing this, we’ve had four writers (PhilB, Mike Chappell, Gregg Rosenthal, and Sports Illustrated) all write essentially the same thing. Since I highly doubt these people are getting their cues from me, at what point to the haters here stop acting like naive fans and starting realizing that maybe, just maybe, BBS was right when he wrote all that crap back in May.

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by Brad Wells on Jun 29, 2010 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also

Thanks for the comments here people. If I start to see things get a bit out-of-control here, as they got in previous threads, comments will get deleted. This site will NOT turn into Battle Red Blog. Discussions will be civil and name-calling or insulting writers will get you banned.

Thanks in advance.

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by Brad Wells on Jun 29, 2010 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Deleting Comments

I feel this is something that is very counter-productive. If someone did something that was truly “in the wrong” why not leave it there so that the community can see that any “punishment” is justified?

The world's biggest BCS hater and damn proud of it!

by MrNFL on Jun 29, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because

The community does not manage this blog. I do. If you don’t like the policy, make your own blog and allow the comments to be community run. Good luck with that.

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by Brad Wells on Jun 29, 2010 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was just a suggestion

Yet you respond with the “If you don’t like it, GTFO”

Why I am not surprised.

The world's biggest BCS hater and damn proud of it!

by MrNFL on Jun 29, 2010 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess it is just a differing in opinion.

You right now think you are correct to some level cause media members say the same thing basically as you while we don’t and would only if someone on the team said it or we saw it come to fuition. (Maybe try to make it clear when “Nobody” is something less broad as it is easy to do and you won’t get all this stuff that is off topic?

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by TheAngelsColts on Jun 29, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Or, better yet

People can chill out about this. Clearly some people do not want to accept the notion hat Anthony Gonzalez has no defined role on this team. They think he is “better” than Pierre Garcon, and should start over him. What I have said is the team thinks differently. They haven’t officially said this, but I’ve learned in this job to never trust what any team says “officially.” It’s always about what is not getting said, or the whispers you hear internally. Some of the best people to get that kind of information from are people like Mike Chappell.

Much of the ranting on this subject has been a bit silly, especially the people who claim their “opinion doesn’t matter.” For the Colts, that’s true. They don’t care what you think. Week 16 should have told you that. For hear, if your opinion didn’t matter, I’d write my articles, shutoff my comments, tell Cass to take a hike as Community Manager, and have this whole thing be a one-way conversation. Since I have no plans to do any of those things, the people claiming their opinion doesn’t matter around here really need to lighten the F up. Your thoughts matter.

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by Brad Wells on Jun 29, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yay!

My job is safe!

"I am in favor of censorship ‐ not against what is supposed to be sexy or dirty, but against what is idiotic." -Jean Renoir

Random fact of the week from the empty void that is my mind: Nobody cares what beer the most interesting man in the world drinks.

by Cassieper on Jun 29, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shit, Bluedude, I did not read your whole post before I said largely the same thing

regarding opinions/facts.

We are in agreement.

Mea culpa for the extra verbiage and real estate analogy below.

I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.

by Bobman on Jun 28, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brad, maybe it's the wording.

Chappell states it as “I just like the deep speed Garcon provides on the outside, even though I really like Gonzo’s after-the-catch skills.” He’s painting it totally as his opinion based on speed, with the caveat that Gonzo also has good skills. Basically, he’s taking a stand and covering hs ass.

You painted it a little more boldly with no ass coverage (like the gus in Braveheart) as a definitive statement that is quite damning of Gonzo, who was a pretty good WR per FO metrics:
“The reason for this is players like Pierre Garcon and Austin Collie have developed faster than Gonzo.”

Garcon had a ton of drops and a couple boneheaded personal fouls (though I like that fire). Gonzo was a top-5 rated WR by FO for his first two years. I am not sure how the “A has developed faster than B” argument holds water, except to say that A started so way down low, that his advancement has been incredible (but may still not compare to the overall vallue of B)…..

I look it as two identical houses in very different neighborhoods. They both cost $100k to build but because one lot was much cheaper than the other, their costs were $140k for A and $180k for B. Which would you rather have? It depends. But after a few years, the A house appreciated faster at 5% a year because the area is gentrifying while the B house appreciated slower, at just 3% a year because the neighborhood was viewed as over-priced. Which is worth more today? (It depends on how many years).

My view is that Gonzo’s plateau started much higher, so that even if the other guys improved at a doubled pace compared to him, they may still be behind him overall. And those improvement paces are not linear—there can be peaks and valleys, they can accelerate, or slow down….

FTR, I still say Gonzo is the superior WR, but we’ll see.

I hate Joe Namath. That's how long I've been a Colts fan.

by Bobman on Jun 28, 2010 3:49 PM EDT reply actions  

BBS, i thought

your argument before was that Gonzo is the #4 wideout? I don’t understand how this article supports your opinion? Here’s the thing (IMO).. You pick your 3 best WRs.. everyone (but BBs) believes it to be Wayne, Garcon, and Gonzo in some sort of order.. No way Garcon is going to play the slot reciever, he’s not skilled enough, so obviously Garcon will be in the “#2” position.. that’s what makes Gonzo so special and in my opinion better than Garcon/Collie… he can play any WR position on the field.. When healthy, he’s an absolute stud..

by ColtfaninPitts on Jun 28, 2010 4:10 PM EDT reply actions  

i do feel however, if i had to chose between who’s playing the #2 along side wayne in a two WR set.. i’d go with Garcon most of the time.. he has a flair to his game.. I LOVE IT : )

by ColtfaninPitts on Jun 28, 2010 4:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Quit Focusing on What # a Receiver May Be!

BBS, I agree that with you, Chap and whoever else if you were to rank the current receivers; Gonzo is currently 4th. BUT, if any team were to care less about ranking players, it’s the Colts. They love to rotate players to get the best player on the field for each situation they face.

With Moore’s history of wanting interchangability with his offense and Peyton’s ability to execute those changes, the possibility of WR/TE options available to them are mind boggling! If you’re Gonzo, I don’t think it matters where you are on the depth chart. The Colts need him rotating regularly into the line-up.

You’re going to see all kinds of formations each week because this offense is going to exploit secondaries like we saw in ‘04. Teams are going to come in focusing on taking Clark or Reggie out of the game and this offense is going to be ready to pounce on that game plan with trips, four wides, 2 backs, double tight 4 wides…You are going to possibly see 5 to 6 different game leading receivers this year. One guy will be the go to man that one week that the defense can’t figure out. Then another guy the next week.

The more receivers we have the more dangerous it makes the other receivers and Peyton. Gonzo playing a lot is great for EVERYONE!

by G Colt on Jun 29, 2010 10:07 AM EDT reply actions   2 recs

This

At the end of the day, this is probably what will end up happening (more receiver rotation). Recced.

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by Brad Wells on Jun 29, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

i am thinking the same things...

I guess it is a matter of pride. Honestly whatever number you are on the depth chart does not guarantee Peyton will throw your way. I really hope our WRs focus on being productive, mamking a pro bowl career out of their production and help us win a SB. Nobody will remember who is #1, #2 and so on if you produce.

If you see my smilieys, think of E.M.H. - our COLTs King of Smileys!

by Manning4ever on Jun 29, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, Its a TEAM sport not an individual sport

Good point here. I think your right. Its more about what each player adds to the overall’s offense ability, not who is the #1 on the team. Peopel remeber SBs!

by smits07 on Jun 30, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

We're so fortunate to be having this discussion

Last year, in week 2, we had Reggie, an unknown second year player, a fourth round pick, and Hank Baskett as our only receivers.

Now, going into training camp, the Colts have a first-round talent potentially fourth on the depth chart, with some intriguing prospects behind him.

Last year: Hank Baskett
This year: Anthony Gonzalez/ Austin Collie, Blair White, Sam Guigere…

I’m happy.

by hoosierstudent on Jun 30, 2010 5:08 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Giguere was there last year too

If Giguere could not beat out Hank Baskett convincingly in his 2nd year after being drafted, how can we assume he would get the coaches to give him the nod this year?

Still, the horses that we know work are Wayne, Garcon, Gonzo, and Collie. That is still better than 90% of the teams out there.

The rest will have to show the coaches and us fans something in pre-season on the field.

by chad72 on Jun 30, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Gonzo is 100% Healthy, he will play #3. IF!

Bigblue,

I am new to SB Nation, Love it. Great down to earth thoughts from knowledgeable people not influenced by dumb ass media conglomerates. However, for my first blog post here, I am going to have to sharply disagree with you on Gonzo. I am a big fan of Mike Chappell, he has a history offering experienced, level headed, down to earth, tell it like he sees it advise. First, The whole 1.Wayne/2.Garcon/3.Gonzo/4.Collie pecking order is not a big surprise to many. This is the order they used last year minus Gonzo when he got hurt. If Gonzo is back to 100% (That is still a BIG BIG BIG BIG IF here!), Collie and garcon will have a hard time competing against him. I know the media likes to talk up the story of Collie and Garcon coming in and making big plays, and yes they have. They have matured well and done it fast this past year. However, as most of you know, the general media can be full of shit and blow things out of proportion. If you are a media-bandwagon-NFL-fan, just stop reading my post now.

I remember after one game Peyton said it best to a reporter and said Garcon and Collie have done a great job but they are both making lots of mistakes our there still and have a lot to improve. That is a truth the media likes to conveniently forget to fit into their perfect little "rookie sensation" story. IF you go back through the tapes I think you’ll see that last year, Collie and Garcon both had slipperly hands like they were Mrs. Butterworth’s kids, especially Garcon, They have to learn to Consistently hold on to the footballs being thrown in the NFL. There were far too many passes that were good passes by Peyton but Collie and Garcon’s hands could not hold on to (especially Garcon). They drop far too many good passes to be considered a "Great" receiver. They played "great" for rookies, but not "great" like Reggie Wayne or even Gonzo. Remember, they have Peyton Manning to make them look good. He throws to them because he no longer has the option of Harrison and Gonzo, not because they are his top picks. He can make a lot of average and rookie receivers look good out there. My point is that Collie and Garcon are great rookies, not great players (not yet at least). Gonzo is much quicker than the both of them, his ability to hold on to the ball and catch the ball are extremely better than the both of them, his NFL knowledge and ability to read defenses is much more matured than the both of them, his run after the catch is far better, and he runs a hell of a better route than the both of them put together. Now for you talking about the stats and # of TD that Collie and Garcon had over Gonzo, most good fans know, stats can be shit, just ask Matt Cassell. The fact is Gonzo grew up behind Harrison, Wayne, and Clark. Now that Harrison and Gonzo were out last year that makes it a much better situation for Collie and Gonzo to rack up stats. Remember, Garcon was on the roster two years ago and by the end of the season most viewers would still not have even recognize the blue 85 number, this was because Harrison, Wayne, Gonzo, and Clark were there. Peyton threw to Gonzo and Collie last year because his favorite receivers were not there.

The only catch to all that is that although Gonzo is quicker and overall better than Garcon, Garcon has a faster top speed. Because of this, Garcon will likely start at the #2 position on the outside to add top speed to the position and let Gonzo play slot which is truly his specialty because of is his quickness, hands, and route running ability. The overall ranking of the receivers is:

1.Reggie Wayne 2. Gonzo 3. Austin Collie 4. Pierre Garcon

I agree with Mike Chappell that the starting WR Positions are going to be:

  1. Reggie Wayne #2 Pierre Garcon #3 Gonzo

The Colts love to rotate though. I think we will see plenty of all the top four receivers (Wayne, Gonzo, Collie, and Garcon) because we have a great depth of good receivers this year. We will see some of Gonzo playing the #2 position (Maybe even Collie sometimes too). Definitely will see some of Garcon playing the #1 position to move Reggie around too.

However, the best part of the game is that you never know what will happen. Gonzo may not come back 100%. If he doesn’t, that changes everything. Then, Collie could easily overtake Gonzo. Collie and Garcon might make those huge leaps forward again and become "great" players at Gonzo’s level. They were not quite there last year, but they could easily come close this year. I have much higher hopes for Collie especially; he shows much more potential in his quickness, IQ, and hands. I don’t think Garcon will improve quite as much. Plus, the Colts have the best track record growing players into stars. And, even as a huge gonzo fan, I remember back in the days of Reggie and Harrison when Gonzo was green and use to have Mrs. Butterworth’s hands too!

by smits07 on Jun 30, 2010 12:57 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I love your post....

haha.. and we also have a lot of great rookie WR prospects who may actually “WOW” us this year….

If you see my smilieys, think of E.M.H. - our COLTs King of Smileys!

by Manning4ever on Jun 30, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

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