Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

Why It Would Be Unwise For The Colts To Trade Mathis Or Wayne

Note - This is written to provide a different take and serve as food for thought: 

If your kid is top three in his year for all of high school then suddenly fails a class because his grandfather died the night before his final causing him to bomb it, is he a bad student? Would you punish him for a month?

If you have a squeaky clean driving record for 10 years but get into a wreck because blinding sun caused you to miss a stoplight, are you a horrible driver? Would you sell your car?

If your company records 12 quarters of profits but has a one bad earnings period because of worldwide economic slowdown does that make your company fundamentally unsound? Would you quit your job?

If you answered no to any - hopefully all - of these then you shouldn't support a full-scale Colts rebuilding project or front office overhaul.

The Colts have been shockingly bad this season its true, but they also lost the best player in the league - and maybe of all time - ten days before the season began. 

When something like that happens, you just aren't the same team. You also shouldn't panic and throw a firesale either. 

Star-divide

Before we start clamoring to blow up the team, let's slow down and take a deep breath. Adam Schefter's idea that the Colts should trade Mathis and Wayne is in keeping with the wildly overstated purported demise of the franchise and the panicked nature surrounding the organization.

Over the past decade, the Colts have been the second most consistent team in terms of wins, first if you count consecutive playoff appearances and third best if you judge by Super Bowls and appearances. Only four teams have reached multiply Super Bowls since 2000. The Rams, The Colts, the Steelers and the Pats. Only one of them, Indy,  made the playof fs nine consecutive seasons.

In 2002 on the heals of two consecutive championships, the Pats with a healthy Tom Brady and vaunted defensive went 9-7 and missed the playoffs. In 2009, a year removed from their championship run, the Steelers went 9-7 and missed the playoffs with a (relatively) healthy team and Big Ben behind center. Both teams missed the playoffs with their best players on the field (Big Ben and Tom Brady aren't exactly Kevin Kolb and Chad Henne either). Yet neither owner suffered a hysterical meltdown and guess what, both teams bounced back as strong as ever.

For all of Polian's recent draft-day misses - and he's had his fair share - he's also had a consistent philosophy: build the team around Peyton Manning.

Is that crazy, to depend on one player? Not really. It's good luck in the first place to land such a once in a generation talent. Ever so often, there are players who transcend their position and their predecessors and when you land them, you ride with it. If you think Polian is alone in doing this (and crazy) think again. Bill Belichick,  the defensive genius, has abandoned his focus on defense instead focusing on surrounding Brady with as much talent as possible. This year, the Pats are terrible defensively yet sit at 5-1 as one of the league's best teams. The Steelers over the past few seasons have abandoned their power-running game surrounding Big Ben with Pro Bowl receivers given his penchant for making big plays. 

Polian realized he had possibly the greatest quarterback of all time, so he did the same thing, providing Manning with the pieces to supplement his skill set on offense while putting together a defense that was built to play with the lead. For 10 years the philosophy has worked and produced unparalleled results. 

Now with Manning out, that philosophy, along with our season, is out the window... which sucks, a lot. And yes, the Colts should be better than 0-6. They have too many veterans and good players not to have a win midway through October. Sure they've been close, but as we all know in the NFL that doesn't cut it.  

It is absolutely fair to demand changes and after what we've seen so far, there should be a shakeup. Coyer is definitely on the hot seat and shouldn't return. Caldwell's seat is going to get uncomfortably warm the more losses that pile up as well. Criticism of Polian's recent drafts (although he seems to have nailed the top 4 picks this year), is warranted as well. But undergoing wholesale changes, trading Mathis and Wayne and starting anew?

No thank you.

Here are a few scenarios:

Scenario one:

Trade both Mathis and Wayne for two forth round picks. Start the rebuilding phase for real by releasing Gary Bracket, and Melvin Bullitt and making no efforts to re-sign Anderson or Sims or replace them with similar quality veterans. With the first pick draft Luck or another first round prospect (there will be some good ones) followed by a defensive tackle and offensive tackle in rounds 2 and 3 (needed) and a receiver (won't be an A.J. Green) and DE in rounds 4. 

Manning comes back but no longer has a 1,000 yard receiver to throw to. Even when the offense does get a lead (which will be a harder task), the Colts defense is even more toothless as teams double and triple team Freeney.

The Colts are obviously markedly better with Peyton back, but Freeney is unhappy losing his sidekick and discord among the remaining veterans grow as they feel cheated out of a last few good years. 

Defensively the unit is younger (possibly more talented) and faces more growing pains while offensively the team is less explosive. Manning's last few good years are wasted as the Colts 'develop' their young guys. The Colts remain average to a bit better than average until Manning retires. Then, a new qb takes over and either vaults the Colts back up the standings or doesn't pan out and the Colts remain a bottom feeder for several years to come.

Random side note: If you think Polian has lost his touch, why would you advocate for more draft picks knowing he probably won't be going anywhere?

Chance of winning a Super Bowl - low. 

Scenario Two:

Try and resign both Mathis and Wayne to short term contracts with opt-out clauses. Make it very clear that this year is an aberration and that both players will have legitimate chances at competing for at least 2/3 more Super Bowls (which they would already know) if they are willing to take three year deals for slightly less money, a philosophy which worked (in theory) with the Eagles. Focus on bringing in the best free-agent veteran players available and re-sign Garcon and keep Brackett and Bullitt (if he is 'healthy' - our secondary is that bad it's worth the chance). If Luck is not there, pass on a quarterback and draft the best player available on the offensive line. Follow that up with three consecutive picks addressing the secondary. Challenge for the next three Super Bowls before handing the reigns to Luck (or taking a qb if not) and being prepared to struggle for the next few years as we rebuild from scratch. 

Ideal situation, Elway's final two years in Denver.

Chance of winning a Super Bowl - decent.

Scenario Three:

Trade one - in this case probably Wayne because a receiver is easier to replace - and hope that Anthony Gonzalez (who would have to be re-signed) or Blair White can make a miraculous comeback and that whoever is drafted can fill in at receiver. Defense isn't as good as it could be as high picks are used to address quarterback and receiver and Colts offense is less efficient as Manning struggles some without his favorite target. Still though, Peyton somehow makes the offense go enough to challenge for a playoff spot.

Chance of winning a Super Bowl - between scenario 1 and 2

When all said and done, the decision boils down to which side of the fence do you fall on. Given Polian's stature and knowing Irsay's history and the importance he places on loyalty, Bill Polian will almost certainly remain with the team, especially considering the apparent successes of this year's draft and the drafting of Angerer and Connor last season (the better they both get, the better it reflects on him). 

 

As we all know, there is no guarantee that this draft picks - even high ones (see Hughes and Brown) - will work out. Even if they do, rarely will a rookie come in and make an immediate impact, the likes of which Wayne and Mathis have been making for the better part of a decade. 

So if you are willing to sacrifice Manning's last good years and hope for a better long term future, then trading Mathis and Wayne make sense. If grooming Luck (or whoever) is the what matters most and suffering through a few likely woeful years (possibly even with Manning) so that the Colts may perhaps be competitive a few years dow the road, then trading Mathis and Wayne is the right call. 

But, if you were excited for this season before Manning was ruled out and you believe that given the Colts body of work over the past decade, that Indianapolis can immediately return to prominence, then trying to convince Mathis and Wayne to commit to shorter term contracts is definitely the way to go. 

Obviously both philosophies are fair and we won't know which strategy is better until years down the road. But if I were Bill Polian (or a betting man), I would hitch my wagon to surrounding Peyton Manning with as many familiar and proven veterans as possible. 

Before the season, the Colts were favored to win the division and most fans were calling this season a "Super Bowl or bust" type season. With Peyton back and healthy, why wouldn't next year's team be? 

If the Colts can re-sign Wayne, Mathis and Garcon (certainly a tall order), they should once again return to the elite of the NFL. 

The way I see it (and many will disagree) is that Manning is a proven commodity and one of the greatest players of all time. If he comes back completely healthy (which is still a big if), he will have a window of three to four more years and if so, the Colts should try to stack their lineup with as many good veteran players as possible to milk as much out of his legacy as possible.  

The thought that Wayne and Mathis will somehow decline to the point of irrelevance in one year is absurd. Sure they may lose a step (although the conditioning they keep themselves in maybe not), but a Reggie Wayne at 90 percent speed is still dangerous and a Robert Mathis at 90 percent is still terrifying. 

More importantly, we don't know what the draft holds but we do know that mid-round draft picks usually don't make the Pro Bowl in their first year. Remember too, that our first pick isn't likely to have an impact for at least a few years anyway. Beginning a half-hearted rebuilding process makes us a more deficient team than what we've been and wastes Peyton's last few years of championship level quarterbacking. 

The cacophony for change is growing each week in Indy. Coyer and Caldwell might not last, but before getting carried away, let's step back and re-evaluate where the Colts are as a team. If Peyton was playing would Indy be 5-1? If Peyton comes back next season, will this year's disaster be a distant memory?

 Sometimes we do something in the heat of the moment and regret it later on. It would be awfully painful to see Wayne or Mathis torch the Colts down the road or look back and say, 'damn, we could have won a Super Bowl' if we had a better pass rush or big play receiver. 

Before we trade anyway two franchise pieces, let's be certain that we can't contend or that they won't resign. 

 

Comment 22 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

No way would I trade Mathis.

Elite DE are hard to come by. When you have one, you keep them. IMO, we HAVE to resign Mathis this offseason. Just like Freeney (although to a lesser extent) the defense doesn’t work the same without 98 out there. Teams will just double team Freeney all the time.

As for Wayne, unless I’m offered a 1st/2nd round (maybe 3rd) pick, I keep him too. I’d try to resign him in the offseason, but I wouldn’t throw tons of money his way. Peyton has that unbelievable ability to make many WR into above average/Pro Bowl worthy players, so I don’t believe we have to have Reggie out there for the offense to run.

by MinerFootball on Oct 18, 2011 8:28 AM EDT reply actions  

Wayne is definitely not worth a 1st round pick…hard pressed to get a 2nd rounder for him too

But you’re right…Manning can turn even a cardboard box into a Pro Bowl receiver

Heck…We can just go out and trade a 6th rounder for someone like Lloyd if needed and Manning would turn him into the next Marvin Harrison

by manningtoharrison on Oct 18, 2011 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

1st/2nd is probably unrealistic, true.

My initial thought was, “If the Pats can get a 1st for Seymour why couldn’t we get a 1st for Wayne?”. I thought Seymour was older than he actually was at the time of the trade.

by MinerFootball on Oct 18, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not so fast ...

I think there are a couple of flaws in your position:
1. To say rookies do not contribute for 3-4 years is an old school mentality.
2. The thought to sign Brackett and Bullitt after showing signs of being so injury prone is a huge mistake. The let’s take a flyer idea was already tried by San Diego … Sanders. Better yet, to use valuable roster spots on sub-par players that are never active on game day (Gonzalez and Hughes) is ridiculus. To then state keeping them (Gonzalez) is even more mind-boggling.
3. Most of all, to proceed with the status quo is a huge risk. Yes the Colts were a playoff team. But if you were to ask any player, making it to the playoffs is not the goal.

Change is good. Hell, it inevitable. Tampa 2 does not work. Having horrible special teams does not work. Even if Caldwell is a genious (cough), he is not inspiring (to say the least). All is all, no trades are going to be made. But that doesn’t mean status quo is the best route.

by Will.the.real.#7.stage.a.comeback on Oct 18, 2011 9:03 AM EDT reply actions  

if tampa 2 does not work

how has chicago consistently had one of the top defenses in the league for the past 10 years?

by PMoney on Oct 18, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Personnel counts ...

The scheme needs to fit the players. Urlacher does not allow an opponents offense to run the same pass pattern under the coverage for an entire half. From the Saints to the Bucs …

by Will.the.real.#7.stage.a.comeback on Oct 18, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

right

so blame it on the personnel not the tampa 2.

by PMoney on Oct 18, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks

You want to check for typos too? Must be why most NFL teams are using prevent, I mean the Tampa 2 defense. So let me correct myself in light of the powerhouse Chicago Bears DEF, the Tampa 2 defense does not work. Keep your day job …

by Will.the.real.#7.stage.a.comeback on Oct 18, 2011 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

In any case, would have to be for a 2 or 3rd round

If lost to free agency, Colts probably get a 4th rounder comp pick anyway. I would keep mathis unless a team desperate for an edge rusher significantly overpays with draft picks, or a quality safety/CB or combination of the 2.

For Wayne, I don’t think anyone is going to come looking. A 6th rounder for the Broncos WR? Trades just suck in the NFL unless there is some desperation.

by derrickhatchet on Oct 18, 2011 9:36 AM EDT reply actions  

In the end its going to come down to how much Mathis and Wayne want

I recall Wayne taking a slightly less than going rate contract the last time he signed a contract…so maybe there’s hope that he will do the same this time

Mathis is more valuable than Wayne simply because WRs look better than they do when they have Manning throwing the ball to them…I love Wayne and he’s been great but he’s always struck me as a WR that has benefited from having Manning as his QB – I highly doubt he would have had anywhere close to the career he’s had if he played with another QB

by manningtoharrison on Oct 18, 2011 9:41 AM EDT reply actions  

Trade or Re-sign?

I think the real issue here is will the Colts re-sign these players or let them walk. If they decide not to re-sign them, or maybe the FO has already determined this, then trading is absolutely the right call. I’d rather get something instead of nothing in return if they just “walk” even if it is a fourth rounder or what not.

How much is Indy willing to pay Wayne and Mathis? And more importantly how much are they willing to take. I have a feeling neither of them would be content taking a deal that would fall below top tier money for their respective positions.

Personally, I would love for them to take short-term deals with the sole motive being to win one more SB. I think they still have a ton to offer, it’s just neither of them are worth multi-year deals at this point in their careers. See Gary Brackett’s contract*

by steveoly32 on Oct 18, 2011 9:42 AM EDT reply actions  

Mathis is definitely worth a 3-4 year deal IMO

He’s only 30, and I’ve seen no signs of him slowing down anytime soon.

by MinerFootball on Oct 18, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Reggie has lost a step, so it would be nice to see him traded to a middle to contending team.

Colts might get more for Mathis though.

I don’t really care if either or traded or not. I don’t think they’ll hurt our teams chances in the future. All depends on if Manning is 100% healthy. I’m sure he wouldn’t be happy if we didn’t have a #1 receiver though.

And it's now my sig
by Bronn on May 17, 2011 4:56 PM EDT

by Sparhawk on Oct 18, 2011 9:56 AM EDT reply actions  

Draft mistakes

This is where Polian’s mistakes are killing us. Missing on Gonzales, Jerry Hughes, and even Donald Brown are really costing the team right now. All first rounders. Of course you can’t get them all right. But Hughes was drafted to replace Mathis, Gonzales should be a starter, and Brown was drafted to replace Addai.

We already were forced to re-sign Addai. I like Addai, Wayne, and Mathis but in this business if you miss multiple times on 1st rounders it makes these decisions almost impossible in the end. Hard to have a complete team.

by xball6 on Oct 18, 2011 10:08 AM EDT reply actions  

the mistake was not giving Brown more playing time

a rotation of Carter and Brown looked great to me on Sunday. if they would have played Brown more and saw that he has what it takes they wouldn’t have been “forced” into resigning addai

by PMoney on Oct 18, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

remember that after his biggest game last year

he was effectively told to ride the pine for no reason at all…. dumb dumb move….

by PMoney on Oct 18, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Big East Player of the Year

Donald Brown must have won that award in college for a reason and UConn is not a great team…I agree with PMoney. We have always focused on the abilities of manning and our running game has been second tier so you can’t expect Brown to have a breaking out because we pass 3 out of 4 plays. Brown just hasn’t been given chances. He tried to prove himself this weekend in my opinion and he looked surprisingly well

by sharkdaddy on Oct 19, 2011 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hold on to Mathis but

see what the market is for Wayne. Wayne is a fine route runner and reliable but is no longer much of a deep threat. He’s more replaceable than Mathis (a true freak) and is growing long in the tooth. Gonzales is a good stop gap replacement for this year if needed and if he can stay on the field. With Garcon to stretch the field, a good route running receiver without blazing speed can likely be picked up in the 3rd or 4th round. Collie was a 4th rounder.

As for Brackett and Bullit, don’t resign either of them. Angerer plays best in the middle and is a real playmaker and his zone pass coverage skills will only improve with experience. Bullit is only a mediocre safety (at best).

by True__Blue on Oct 18, 2011 10:32 AM EDT reply actions  

Keep Mathis

Mathis and Freeney are the best pass rushing combo debatably ever. We have struggled in run defense where the DT and MLB come into effect. Angerer has done a great job! Besides him the only other player on defense making plays is Bethea. We need to get a solid DT or LB…if MLB move Angerer to OLB he played there some last year and he isn’t quite the size of most MLB’s in the NFL.

Anyone can play corner for the colts when the opposing QB hardly gets anytime to pass with Freeney and Mathis! We need to keep Mathis NO DOUBT or else you will really see how bad our CB’s are

by sharkdaddy on Oct 19, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

The big IF

  Everyone is coming with all of these ideas and scenarios but what people are not talking about is the big IF… is Manning going to be coming back. His injury is no laughing matter, he could easily not be coming back next year or ever. He has been doing a great job as a coordinator in the box… could this be a pre-cursor to what he could be doing in the future??
  Don’t get me wrong, I want Manning to come back for four years and be a great QB like he always has. AND, when he finally retires, I really do hope that Irsay can convince him to stay in Indy as a QB or WR coach… OR even the Offensive Coordinator.
However, all of these discussions mean nothing unless you consider what is going to happen with Manning. So…

  Scenario 1: Manning is going to be back next year WITHOUT any health problems…
We are going to be in the bottom 5 of the draft and a back up QB is not the number 1 priority if Manning is back healthy. So, what do we get with a top 5 prospect? A good WR! So, you let Wayne go, knowing you are still going to get a 3rd or 4th round pick for him. You have a great rookie WR from the draft and teams just are not double teaming Wayne like they use to. Wayne is in the final few years of his career and he is going to be looking for a big pay day (the retirement contract) before he leaves. Money for his future is his first priority, then another ring. No way the Colts resign him, so get some picks for him.
Mathis is a need!! You keep him and you address size, lots and lots of size in later rounds of the draft and free agency. With the emergence of Angerer (Bracket needs to go) and Nevis you need just a little help up front. So you really address the secondary and this defense could be great.
If we get one or two people to help on the O-line and address our secondary we are title contenders.

Scenario 2: Manning does NOT come back next year or is NEVER coming back as a QB…
You address the QB position by getting some "Luck". You let Mathis and Wayne go for more draft picks. You start setting this team up for a rebuilding year. You get rid of the fat. You let go of Bracket and Bullitt and you start setting this team up for youth and the future. I think with the ‘predictions’ that were made about trading Wayne and Mathis was the idea that Manning will not be coming back.

by TheSpear on Oct 18, 2011 11:03 AM EDT reply actions  

Not really… don’t forget there are teams like the Redskins and Oakland like to throw their money away and make sure they get rid of all of their draft picks!!

by TheSpear on Oct 18, 2011 12:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Let's Get Some Facts Straight

No team in the league will trade Wayne or Mathis for a 1st or 2nd round draft, the only person that might would be Bill Polian because he’s lost his damn mind. If Wayne and Mathis was 25, teams may be willing, but Wayne and Mathis are getting up there in age. Wayne is worth a 4th round at best, Mathis is worth a 3rd round maybe (a big maybe 2nd round if a team is desperate for a DE) at best due to that DEs are much more valuable than a good WR. Refer to the Brandon Lloyd trade and the Richard Seymour trade.

Now, with that being said, I propose keeping both Wayne and Mathis. Remember, Freeney’s contract is up next year. Get rid of Bullitt and Brackett. DO NOT resign Pierre Garcon. TRADE Dallas Clark and Joseph Addai. And here’s my support for my argument.

First, Bullitt and Brackett just eats our cap. I don’t care if we don’t have a starting SS, I’d rather have Mathis instead. Go draft a SS. Brackett at this point is a waste. I’m one of his supporters, but no longer, Angerer has outplayed Brackett. Wheeler has played well. And now to the more controversial decisions. Pierre Garcon is not a elite receiver nor is he a great receiver nor is he even a good receiver. I don’t know what people see in him, sure he’s elusive and fast, and can burn Talib and some CBs, but he’s not worth the money that he will be played. He drops passes, less this year, but he still drops easy ones, but the biggest thing is that Garcon often makes bad mistakes that are killer. Believe me, Austin Collie can play wideout, and Blair White can play well in the slot. I give up on Anthony Gonzalez. I can see David Gilreath having a career, Manning doesn’t need Garcon as much as he needs Wayne.

I freaking love Dallas Clark, I think he’s still top 5 TE in the league, I love his personality and playing style, but let’s admit it, he’s starting to decline, whether it’s slowly or not, that’s up to you to decide for yourself. He eats up a lot of cap. If Jacob Tamme can play like he did last year, the Colts will be fine at the TE position. Dallas has also been weaker on his run and pass blocking, which I believe Brody Eldridge can replace him at, and really, I believe that Tamme has softer hands at this point. Trade Clark for a 4th/5th round pick.

Sometimes you have to take a risk, and a risk would be trading Joseph Addai. He’s an effective runner and can bounce off tackles easily, he’s agile and has good carrier vision. Though, he’s becoming injury prone, and as his age goes up, he will become less effective (refer to L.Tomlinson). Running backs don’t have a long life span in the NFL, and Addai is reaching that age fast, it would be Addai and the Colts best interest to trade him to a team like Tampa Bay or a Chicago like team for a 5th/6th round draft pick. Hindsight if 20/20, but sometimes, you gotta risk it. It’s time for Delone Carter AND Donald Brown to show what they can do. Yes, I believe in Donald Brown and I will continue to support him until I see nothing left in him.

A person I don’t support is Jerry Hughes, he doesn’t fit into this offense, he’s a 3-4 OLB rusher type, kinda like Wheeler. Trade Hughes to a team like Baltimore or Chicago. Nonetheless cut him, get his cap off. We need the money, not to only resign Wayne and Mathis, but Freeney, Moala, Powers, Collie, McAfee, potentially Linkenbach in 2 years if Colts don’t draft a OT.

I know this won’t be liked by many people, but I believe it’s the best for the Colts

Pat McAfee for President 2016
RIP Steve Jobs - Thank you for the Mac computers that I mortgaged my house for.
Anthony Calvillo - 72,382 passing yards - pro football's all-time leader

by KBUnitz on Oct 18, 2011 12:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about the Indianapolis Colts, 2006 NFL Champions!

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

B1_small
Colts.com Reworks Roster
Nerds2
Andrew Luck Failing to Meet Expectations and Five Other Predictions
1565007530_small
Devil's Take - Colts Misconceptions and Issues

Recent FanPosts

Small
Three Big needs with possible answers
Small
National Football Posts's "Impact Rookies"
Small
Gonzo
Images_small
Colts Trade Chris Gronkowski for CB Cassius Vaughn
Image_small
Biggest Colts Changes
Houston_texans_v_indianapolis_colts_-o3ldozy6pvl_small
Announcement about research project involving StampedeBlue
Indianapolis-colts_small
New defensive scheme: Will it help or hurt the Colts?
B1_small
Two Nuggets from the Official Roster
Harbaugh_1_small
Where does "Mr. Irsay" rank?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Head Writer, Editor-In-Chief

Stampedeblue_small Brad Wells

Mgrex03_avatar_small mgrex03

Contributing Writers

Colts_small emiller17

Photo_small nopuntintended

Dmb33rrr_small Stew Blake