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SuckforLuck sweepstakes: Luck vs. Manning? Why the Colts should stick with #18

INDIANAPOLIS, IN - NOVEMBER 6: Peyton Manning of the Indianapolis Colts talks with quarterback Curtis Painter #7 during the game against the Atlanta Falcons at Lucas Oil Stadium on November 6, 2011 in Indianapolis, Indiana. The Falcons defeated the Colts 31-7. (Photo by Joe Robbins/Getty Images)

News of the Dolphins surprising demolition of the Chiefs at Arrowhead Stadium was a much needed positive distraction from what was otherwise another depressing Sunday afternoon for Colts fans. 

With the Dolphins in the win category, the Colts are the lone winless team in the NFL and undoubtedly the worst team as well. 

Usually such an ignoble distinction would be met with long faces and groans from the Indy faithful. This year however it is a badge of honor as the Colts are now the front runners for the "best QB prospect in a decade."

But hang on all you #suckforluck faithfuls. Drafting Andrew Luck is not necessarily the right or best move. 

Star-divide

Before I defend why, it's important to note that this rationale is predicated on one factor: Manning's health. If Manning is truly healthy -  a verdict verified by independent specialists - then the Colts should pass on Luck. Obviously if Manning can't go or isn't close 100 percent healthy, then we should of course draft Luck. If Peyton's health is in the slightest bit of doubt, the Colts can't risk it. No matter how much Manning means to the Colts keeping him over Luck if he wasn't fully capable of playing would be irresponsible. But, if Manning is given a clean bill of heath and is ready to go, then the Colts should stick with #18. 

Assuming Peyton is healthy (a major assumption at this juncture), the Colts would still have two to three championship caliber teams over the next few years.

With Luck, we'd probably be rebuilding during that same time frame.

Here's what we know about Manning:

1. Manning is a Super Bowl winning qb (we now realize he apparently did it himself) with a 141-67 record equating to  a .677 lifetime regular season winning percentage. 

2. He is one of the winningest quarterbacks of all time and owns just about every distinction, honor, award one could possibly earn.

3. With Manning as the starter the Colts were football's most winningest team ever for a single decade during the 2000's winning at least 10 games 9 straight years. 

4. As of earlier this year, the Colts and Manning believed that even with the injury he could play an additional 5 years, hence the signing of his new contract.

Here's what we know about Andrew Luck

1. He is a very good college quarterback who CBS draft analyst Rob Rang called "the best player he's ever scouted" and who Chris Collinsworth has said multiple times on SNL is the "best prospect in a decade."

2. He is a three year starter who is 28-6 at Stanford and helped guide The Cardinal to last year's Orange Bowl and a final #4 AP ranking.

3. He holds numerous Stanford and Pac 12 records yet has only won a few national awards and  broken a few NCAA records. (Manning holds far more college awards and statistics than Luck will when he graduates).

4. He has never played a down of professional football.

To me, the choice is pretty simple. Four months ago, before we knew about Manning's health issues, Luck wasn't even in the discussion. Playing for a Super Bowl in front of the home crowd was.

If Manning is indeed healthy and can prove to the Colts' brass and team doctors that he can make a full recovery and regain his zip and momentum on his throws, then why wouldn't the Colts immediately be back in contention? How much different is last year's team than this year's?

(I would go as far as to say that even though our secondary has been horrendous overall, - excluding Manning - the additions of Carter, Castonzo, Nevis and a revitalized Brown outweigh the loss of Hayden and Tryon.)

Manning is a proven winner who knows the Colts better than anyone, has the command and respect of his teammates and can lead the team from the day he returns. As good a prospect as Andrew Luck is, he is still unproven, would go through a several year learning curve (even Manning had too) and wouldn't have the immediate respect of his teammates, especially the veterans who might resent him for all the suck for Luck talk this season.

If the Colts do end up with the first pick, they can trade it to a desperate team like the Dolphins and maybe get the second pick overall, the Dolphins second round pick and another pick or player in return. 

By trading for the rights to Luck, the Colts could easily land tackle Matt Kalil out of USC (college football's highest rated offensive lineman), a second round pick which they could use on a cornerback or safety and perhaps even a guy like Vontae Davis, a talented young corner who has fallen out of favor with the Dolphins.

Such a draft would really bolster the Colts depth and along with last year's draft, surround Manning with the necessary talent to once again compete. With Castonzo, Ijalana and a guy like Kalil to go along with Saturday, the Colts could have the strongest offensive line Peyton has ever played behind. With a guy like Davis, a second round rookie CB and a few other free agents and draft picks, the Colts could vastly improve their secondary and with the continued improvement of Nevis and Moala the Colts defensive line would begin finally be stout in the middle.

While some people say the Colts have no talent, I just don't but that. Personally I think that Wayne, Clark, Garcon, Freeney, Mathis, Angerer, McAfee are all standouts at their positions and Castonzo, Carter, Conner and Nevis have the potential to be future stars as well. Across the board the Colts have the pieces to pick up right where they left off last season with Manning at the helm. Look at this offensive roster:

QB: Peyton Manning - arguably the greatest quarterback of all time (even a Peyton at 80/90 percent is still a top 5 player in the league)

RB: A trio of running backs in Addai, Carter, Brown. While not dominant, these three have all shown that they are more than capable of carrying the load. The three (even two of them) would be above average runners who could take some of the pressure off Manning and provide him with the ground game he has sorely lacked in recent years. 

TE: Clark, Tamme, Eldridge. Again, another trio that even with Clark's drop off this year is still among the better units in the league. 

WR: Wayne, Garcon, Collie and free agent x  is another elite group (*depending on contracts - assuming they re-sign both Wayne and Garcon to provide Manning with his favorite weapons). 

Offensive Line: Castonzo, Ijalana, Saturday, free agent x/Diem, Kalil would be arguably the best unit Manning has ever had in front of him.

If Manning comes back, the Colts can resign guys like Wayne, Garcon, Saturday and Mathis for one last hurrah because they have a proven quarterback who will make it worthwhile. If Manning comes back a roster that produced some 40+ wins over a 4 year period will likely remain in tact (and be improved upon). If Manning comes back the Colts have one of the most explosive offenses in the game. 

But if the Colts go with Luck (they might not have a choice)  the whole strategy changes. Instead of building for a few more immediate Super Bowl runs and loading up on the defensive side of the ball to help the offensive out,  the strategy revolves around building around Luck and starting anew. 

If Luck is behind center, why bring back Reggie Wayne? Suddenly he's too expensive to keep around while a rookie quarterback develops. Instead the Colts use their second round pick on a wide receiver to show they are committed to their new star.

Now questions arise whether Addai, Clark and Saturday should stay for the same reason as to why Reggie Wayne was let go. 

Are more picks now spent on running back, center and tight end? Probably. Plus the extra defensive players and picks that teams would be willing to throw in for Luck aren't there meaning there are fewer opportunities and lesser odds of the Colts acquiring top talent.  

In this case, the Colts would likely just start completely fresh. In such as scenario, Wayne, Addai, Saturday, Diem, Brackett, Bullitt and Mathis would be likely traded or cut. Clark and Freeney too would be in jeopardy. 

Such a strategy might work. The Colts might have the next great quarterback, cap room and draft assets so that in three or four years they could return to prominence. Or they might not. What if Luck is the next Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell. What if he's simply the next Matthew Stafford or Sam Bradford? They are damn good, but not great. 

When you think of the greatest quarterbacks of the last 25 years you think of: Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, John Elway, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning.

Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger and maybe Brett Farve, Kurt Warner and Aaron Rodgers (although probably not quite yet) are a step below. All and all, that's a pretty short list. Since 1980, 15 quarterbacks were taken number 1 overall, only two others besides Peyton Manning made the above list. 

As good as Andrew Luck is, the odds of him being even as good as Aaron Rodgers are small. 

Is forgoing a few more shots at a championship now worth the risk of the future unknown? Having Peyton - when/if healthy - is as sure a bet to win 10 games and make the playoffs as there has ever been in the NFL. Can you say that about Luck?

Drafting Luck doesn't just affect the quarterback position, it affects the whole team. He might be a future star, but are the Colts willing to cast aside first ballot Hall of Famer who could easily have two to three great years for future potential, no matter how tantalizing a talent Luck may be. 

 

What about Peyton and the Colts' advancing age?

Age certainly takes it's toll on players it's true. But it's funny how there wasn't a fan out there when Peyton signed his extension who was worried or complaining about the age of the Colt's and the affects it might have on some of the veterans over the next two or three years.  Are the Colts suddenly old, slow and not worth keeping around? Or is Peyton that good?

 

Too often we want what's new and 'better' and what we can't  have. Often such lustful thinking comes at the expense of not appreciating what we do possess. 

Andrew Luck could be good, even great,  but it's unlikely that he will ever surpass Peyton Manning. While talents like like come around every decade, guys like Peyton come every few generations and the Colts would be wise to ride Peyton (so long as he is healthy) until the very end. They might get a championship or two by doing so.

 

 

 


Comment 25 comments  |  6 recs  | 

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A fine bit of writing

This is why I return to this site, great thought provoking ideas like those above.

I do believe that you are correct, if PM is healthy they will stick with him. They will trade down and use it on a big OL. However, I differ with you on the second round pick. With PM not being young and having the possibility that he could take a Pre-season hit and never play again, the Colts will get a QB of the future with the second round pick.

@IndyVerm

by VermVerm on Nov 9, 2011 8:26 AM EST reply actions  

Again...

Either Manning or Luck should not be mutually exclusive

by JCub3d on Nov 9, 2011 8:30 AM EST reply actions  

Nice article

Very well put together piece. I would like to bring up 4 points.
1) If manning would get hurt during the season, we do not have a competent productive NFL QB as a back up.
2) Luck is the highest rated QB to enter the NFL is 10+ years.
3)The new NFL bargaining agreement has the rookies wage scale sloted. If we drafted Kalil at 1, we would be paying almost the same.
4) We trade the pick, Manning get hurt and can never play again. Luck turns out to be the one of the top qb’s in 3 years.

by Team2 DaBears on Nov 9, 2011 8:44 AM EST reply actions  

Fiscally Irresponsible not to take Luck

From a pure finance and marketing standpoint the Colts absolutely have to take Andrew Luck.

Reasons being if there is no Peyton Manning or the chance the Peyton Manning goes down this franchise is sunk. Whether Colts fans admit it or not; they are fair weather fans and will not re up their ticket packages to see a floundering team with no hope. I believe the fans would buy into a team that is rebuilding around Andrew Luck knowing that there is a great chance of success.

by mcrobert125 on Nov 9, 2011 8:59 AM EST reply actions  

cosign this argument

Why do so many people think the ones we would get for Luck make us an instant Superbowl favorite? Best case: a healthy Peyton can be traded to Miami for at least Kalil. Savings on Manning’s contract can help build defense.

Be clear Manning gives us our best shot at winning the next couple of years. But what happens after that?

Taking my chances on the young prospect.

by mlc2656 on Nov 9, 2011 1:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Exactly as we should

My feeling is that most of the people who post here don’t/weren’t around as Colts fans pre-Manning.

It’s all well and good to say we should do this to honor Peyton or we owe Peyton this or that.

It’s going to be a completely different situation if we are 5-11 in three years with absolutely no hope on the horizon.

Getting the 1st pick this year is akin to the franchise getting a divine gift from above. Messing that gift up is just asking for the franchise to be cursed going forward.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Nov 9, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Do we have the LBs to convert to 34 scheme?

If so, is Freeney tradeable? And what could we expect in return?

by mlc2656 on Nov 9, 2011 2:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

He's owed 19 million against the cap next year

No trade value whatsoever at that number.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Nov 9, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Gotta take Luck

A key to success in this league is to get younger and less expensive. The average age of a Green Bay Packer is 26. Keeping the old gang around is setting us up to be the next Miami or Buffalo, teams with great QBs that rode them until the end. Letting Manning and Wayne go would free up considerable money to improve a terrible defense and allow us to remain contenders, if not in 2012 then shortly thereafter.

The savings Luck would generate are astounding. Cam Newton signed a 4 year, 22 million dollar contract. Manning is due more than that next year alone. Inflate Luck’s salary a couple million a year over Cam’s and it is still a great deal.

Brady and Manning both make the most money in the NFL. Both teams have terrible defenses. It’s just too hard to stay viable with a guy taking $25M from your cap.

I love Manning and wish him the best, but he knows this is a business and we have to do what’s right for the long-term stability of this franchise, and investing in 30 year olds who can’t win 1 game w/o Manning is not the way.

by clnbailey on Nov 9, 2011 8:59 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Exactly!!!

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Nov 9, 2011 9:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree 100% with this article

well written and argued.

PLEASE BE HEALTHY PEYTON!!!!!!

by Jamison1 on Nov 9, 2011 8:59 AM EST reply actions  

Scrap this Heap

Also, I have to disagree that this Colts squad is so awesome. Peyton has proven by not being on the team that he is the team. Its really shown that guys like Wayne, Clark, Collie, and so on our just average and that Peyton made this team. If we do draft Luck, then i agree that we need to move forward and cut everyone you said and rebuild a new. However with one big twist. We go balls to the wall defense, become the Steelers of the Mid-west. You look at the Jets / Bengals, teams with little to no Offense, but are hanging around and will make the playoffs. Just imagine if they had a Peyton or Luck at the helm. You dont need the best WR or TE. You need crazy defense, Superstar QB, and a great OL. That will be the recipe for success that the Colts never figured out and squandered many SuperBowls with Manning.

by mcrobert125 on Nov 9, 2011 9:02 AM EST reply actions  

the trade of the number one pick

is a way to help get a crazy defense and great OL

by Jamison1 on Nov 9, 2011 9:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Wish List

A crazy defense, a superstar QB, and a great OL? There’s not a team in the league that has all three of those parts. The Saints, Packers, and Patriots have great QBs but suspect defense at best. The Steelers’ offensive line is putrid, that’s why Rothlisberger is in a walking boot every other week. The Jets have a fantastic defense, but Sanchez has no business being a starting QB. The Ravens are probably closest, but Joe Flacco is no superstar.

If Manning is healthy (and that is a big if), he should be the guy the Colts stick with for the simple fact that it takes a great QB to win a Super Bowl in today’s NFL. Look at the last 8 Super Bowl winners: Rodgers, Brees, Rothlisberger, E. Manning, P. Manning, Rothlisberger, Brady, Brady. Teams with good QBs aren’t winning Super Bowls. Teams with great QBs are winning Super Bowls.

We have an all-time great QB (in my mind the greatest QB of all time) who is under contract for four more years. Why would we push him out the door early just to make way for a kid who, despite his credentials, has never taken an NFL snap? There are way too many QB prospects who have failed to make Luck a sure thing.

by Nosoberty on Nov 9, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Rec'd

Dat’s Da Troof, Troof!

I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game. It will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set. Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. ~Walt Whitman

by Chopaholic on Nov 10, 2011 5:09 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with the article. If Manning is healthy, you easily stick with a QB that gives you the best chance at getting to the SB. Trading the 1st pick could land additional picks and maybe even a rising star on another team.

If there are ANY question about Manning’s health, then you definitely take Luck.

And it's now my sig
by Bronn on May 17, 2011 4:56 PM EDT

by Sparhawk on Nov 9, 2011 9:13 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

I Agree with Manning

And your analysis of the Colts talent. I truly do believe there will be high resentment for Luck from the current players, especially the players on offense and the veterans. I’m glad this has finally been brought up as I have been saying this for a long time, what if Luck isn’t who you think. What if he is a Ryan Leaf and a JaMarcus Russell? Many players are great and amazing in college, but stink in the NFL. I can name a few in the NFL right now that are QBs, calling out Tim Tebow. Colts gotta stick with #18.

Though, I gotta say this, and you can disagree, Aaron Rodgers will be the best QB in the history of the NFL when he’s done with football. Rodgers is already better than Favre ever was in his career and Rodgers is better than any other QB in the league today, and that includes Peyton Manning.

Pat McAfee 2012 Pro Bowl bound!
Anthony Calvillo - 72,382 passing yards - pro football's all-time leader
Jon Stewart for President 2016
OCCUPY BILL POLIAN'S OFFICE

by KBUnitz on Nov 9, 2011 9:19 AM EST reply actions  

 If Brady, Manning, or Marino were in their primes they would be putting up similar numbers to Aaron Rodgers. The pass defense this season is a disgrace to football. The Qb is more protected than ever, and receivers have no fear of going over the middle. Ronnie Lott HOF Safety wouldn’t even make the Pro Bowl if he played in the concussion era.

How does he do it?

by It's Magc on Nov 9, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

So the choice is essentially

A) Hope we can squeeze one last year outta Peyton until we go back to being perennially terrible

Or

B) Be contenders another 15 years because we’ve been gifted Andre Luck

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Nov 9, 2011 9:36 AM EST reply actions  

I agree that this is a good article. Well done!

You can find good QBs at other spots in the draft. They aren’t only found at the first pick.

The team actually has to be able to evaluate talent to figure this out though ;)

by tapper on Nov 9, 2011 10:19 AM EST reply actions  

Great article

But why are we ruling out the idea that Luck and Manning can both be on the same team. Why wouldnt luck want to get paid big money to sit behind and learn from perhaps the greatest qb of all time? Its an ideal opportunity. I dont see why Manning would ever have a problem with Luck being on the roster. I believe that the last thing on a hall of famers mind is if luck is going to be him out

In Curtis we Trust!... kinda

by OriolesFan9229 on Nov 9, 2011 10:26 AM EST reply actions  

Do you not agree

that it’s a terrible signal to send to Peyton that you are going to spend your highest pick on a player that only plays if he does not?

It tells Peyton that winning now isn’t your objective and that he will have to continue to carry this team who won’t provide him with the best talent to succeed.

by tapper on Nov 9, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Call me crazy...

…but I just DON’T want that number 1 pick, the decision that would have to be made it’s too big for me to take;

.- The team cut ties and release Peyton Manning so they can move on with Luck, then PM goes to another team and plays 3 or 4 more years at a great level, I can’t even imagine the thought of him wining a SB with another team.

.- The team trades back from the 1 and go all in with PM who give us 3 or 4 four years as playoffs contenders, but we failed to win another SB, on the other hand, the team who take Luck becomes a perrenial Playoffs team for the next 12-15 years and Luck helped them to win multiple SBs.

I just don’t want to deal with the consequences of seeing PM walk nor I want to deal with the consequences of passing on a QB prospect like Andrew Luck, who may be kicking our asses for the next 10 years if we don’t take him.

Calll me crazy, but I’ve pleased with the number 2, 3 or 4 overall pick. It’s possible to trade back from those spots to a team that would want to take a guy like Barkley, Jones or even Kalil and get good value on return. Just remember what the Browns got from the 6 place.

For me, the best thing that could happen it’s to end up with the number 2 or 3 pick, trade back and pick up an extra second and third round, so we can bust this team with a lot of talent, especially the Defense, and of course, counting with a healthy Peyton Manning since week 1 of next season.

*All this is base on the fact that P.M. doesn’t retire next season, if that’s case we should take the best QB prospect available even if is not Luck, well except for Landry Jones (for me that guy would be a bust and an interception machine on NFL level)

by COLTS_CR9 on Nov 9, 2011 12:14 PM EST reply actions  

Good strategy and article, but Luck trade value WAYYYY off

I’ve posted a few times that the colts can NOT in any scenario keep both Luck and Manning, that would by far be the worst option in terms of winning super bowls. People need to remember the goal is to win championships, not go to the playoffs and get bounced in the 1st round for 10 years. Drafting Luck and having a crappy defense guarantees the latter, as opposed to winning super bowls.

We need draft picks and cap space to rebuild this team and get a top 5 defense. Keeping both Luck and Manning hampers us in both areas, so that is not a viable choice. I would trade the 1st pick simply because other teams are overvaluing it. I’ve heard from numerous draft “experts” that Luck will fetch 3 1st round picks at a minimum, plus maybe 2 2nd rounders. The 1st pick is worth 3000 points on the draft point chart, which is someone’s entire draft and then some. Luck being the savior he is, you can expect the trade to be worth 3500 points or more = 3 mid 1st round picks plus a 2nd rounder, or a team’s entire draft and then some (depending on where they pick). If we can get that value for 1 pick, I take it. For those of you who say take Luck no matter what, answer this: at what price would you trade the pick? Luck isn’t worth infinite draft picks, so name a price you think is fair. Chances are, the Dolphins or Redskins will offer something close to your price, so you at least have to consider what the market will pay. It only takes one desperate team/owner to make it happen.

Now with all these picks, we build the defense to a top 5 level, get 1-2 more good O lineman, and ride Manning, our defense and our power running game (with Carter) to 2 superbowls over the next 3-4 years. This is what the Broncos did for Elway, and I think we should follow suit. Then in 4 years, we draft a good, not great QB to come play with our top 5 defense and good Oline win a couple more super bowls going forward. Great QB’s are hard to find, good news is you don’t need a great QB if you have a great defense and running game, which we’ll have with our Oline and top 5 defense.

One misconception people need to realize is you do NOT need a great QB to win a super bowl. Someone above listed the last 8 super bowl winners, and said that it proves you need a great QB. Eli Manning and Big Ben are not great QB’s. They are good, not great. There are 32 starting QB’s in the NFL, so if you want to be great you have to be in the top 5. Rivers/Vick, Brees, Peyton, Brady, and Rogers are the top 5, not Eli and Big Ben. They are good QB’s who won with great Defense and good running games. Neither Eli nor Big Ben had to carry their teams. And keep in mind that with Peyton, we only have 1 super bowl win, and Marino/Moon have none.

For players, we need to cut Addai, Bullit (can’t cut Brackett yet, cap penalty would be huge) – resign Garcon, Saturday, and Mathis. Let Wayne and the others go in free agency. Use that cap space to sign Aubrayo Franklin as a good NT, rebuild secondary through draft with the picks above, as well as 1 good guard and 1 decent WR to replace Wayne. we become power running team with best QB in league, and a great defense. I’ll take my chances with that.

Now if Manning is not fully healthy come Feb, disregard everything above, cut him, draft Luck, cut everyone on the team over 30, and start over. I don’t like that option as much, cause there’s no clear path to super bowls…

by JPZ on Nov 9, 2011 12:31 PM EST reply actions  

Rookies are risky

Rookies are always risky, even “can’t miss” prospects. Remember that many experts thought Ryan Leaf was a better prospect than Peyton Manning. If Peyton had come out a year early, the competition for the #1 pick that year would have been called something like “The Ryan Leaf sweepstakes.” #1 overall picks have included guys like Tim Couch and JaMarcus Russell. And even the guys who turn out to be pretty good often disappoint the team that drafted them – e.g. Drew Bledsoe, Mike Vick, Carson Palmer or Jeff George. Looking at all the QBs taken #1 overall in recent decades, I think the only ones who had a career that would have warranted their teams dumping a healthy Peyton Manning for the last four years of his career were John Elway and Troy Aikman. A few other QBs would also have been worth it, but they were picked later – e.g. Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Joe Montana.

by ex-Viking fan on Nov 9, 2011 1:30 PM EST reply actions  

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