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Is a franchise QB worth 3 first round picks?



It has been discussed in depth whether or not the Colts should draft Andrew Luck with the #1 pick. Lately it has also been a point of emphasis to discuss if the Colts should trade up to pick Andrew Luck, should they not receive the 1st overall pick. My answer to both of those questions is an emphatic no. Especially if trading away the 1st or 2nd pick means receiving a windfall of pick in this year and future year's drafts. Here is my reasoning:

Star-divide

Point 1:What does a franchise QB do for a team?
It has flown below the radar this week, but did anybody catch that Cam Newton broke Peyton Manning's rookie passing record this last week? He officially has 3,893yds 20tds and 16ints all with another game left to pad those stats! For those of you who do not follow the Panthers their record is 6-9 and they will miss the playoffs by at least 3 games, maybe 4. My point is that Cam Newton with his arms and legs is probably the best rookie QB we've seen in a long time and he didn't bring the team to glory. In fact other than Ben Roethlesberger and Eli Manning the last few Superbowl Winning QBs have been in the league at least 6 years. I'll use Big Ben and little brother to prove a later point but for now I just want everyone to see it takes more than a phenomenal young QB to win a Superbowl.

Point 2: What are you giving up?
I've heard many of the talking heads say, "Can the Colts really take the chance on passing on Andrew Luck if he turns out to be the next great Hall of Famer?" My answer is 'Reggie Bush'. We all know the story, but to reiterate: The Texans pass on Reggie Bush for Mario Williams. The media rips the Texans for the next 3 years for whiffing on the pick until it becomes very apparent Reggie Bush is a bust and Mario Williams is the best of his draft class.

What would the Colts be giving up by NOT trading the #1 overall. Names will come up like OT Matt Kalil (reminiscent of the Browns Joe Thomas who has made the pro bowl every year he's been in the league), RG III (Mike Vick with accuracy), and Morris Claiborne (best corner in the draft and fits the Colts system). Next year should see Matt Barkley and Tyrann Mathieu.

What if you get players like Morris Claiborne at CB opposite of Jerraud Powers and Tyrann Mathieu as your starting SS to pair with Antoine Bethea? Your starting defense backfield just got serious in a league heavily defined by the pass.

Point 4: What do you want your team built around?
As I just mentioned, teams are built heavily around the pass, but what is the one consistency between the last dozen or so Super Bowl teams? A steady and effective pass rush and/or a team that can create turnovers. It's true the teams in contention for this year's Super Bowl have defenses that give up yardage by the truckload, but are they bad defenses? That's a matter of opinion. What the Packers, Saints, and Patriots do effectively and makes them successful on defense is their ability to create turnovers and put pressure on opposing quarterbacks.

The Colts have put pressure on quarterbacks in the games they've had the most success and when they've gotten turnovers, they've stayed in the game and in the case of the Titans won. Turovers are the x-factor in games. You can lose in every statistical category, but if you lead in takeaways, you will be very difficult to beat.

Point 5: Why would you build a team around 1 player AGAIN!?
We all saw what happened this year when the Colts lost the player the team is built around. 0-13. Why would you do that to yourself again? Teams that succeed year after year after year (i.e. Steelers) are built around a group of players that are highly effective. If the Colts can get 3 first round picks and 2 second rounders for one player who hasn't shown they can compete in the NFL, TAKE THE PICKS! Build an amazing young defense especially if you get a healthy Manning back. If you don't, get a pretty good QB and still focus on the defense.

I would argue that Tom Brady did little to win his first 2 Super Bowls and that having a defense that took the pressure of was the key to all 3 victories. Eli Manning is another example of what a defense can do for you. Drew Brees wouldn't have a Super Bowl ring if it weren't for a great onside kick recovery and a brilliant interception from his defense. If you lose one of your good defenders, you're not totally out of luck, you just have the other good players help carry the load.

Point 6: The Sam Bradford/Matt Stafford effect
This really ties in well with Point 5, but I feel it's deserving of its own credit. One chronically injured player is all it takes to drag a team to the bottom of the league year after year. Andrew Luck is putting all of your eggs in one basket and a shoulder injury or broken leg would ruin the team. These players are not as overly hyped as Luck, but they were a big deal and received the pressure to save the team.

Point 7: CautionL Hype ahead
Andrew Luck is ESPN's darling and while he is probably (and at least in my opinion) worthy of the #1 overall pick, he is not worth 3 first rounders and 2 second rounders. We have been ignoring very large question marks like: can this guy throw the deep ball, what's with the rash of INTs this year, and has the level of competition (opposing defenses) been that strong this year?

The deep ball is a huge questions mark for me. I hear people say 'people asked the same question about Manning' or 'he hasn't had anyone to throw to'. For the first set of people I would say, Manning doesn't throw the best deep ball. It's good, not great. It's probably the biggest flaw in his game. For the second statement I would throw the BS flag and inform you that Stanford WR Chris Owusu has 4.3 speed. He has been hurt most of the year, but the deep balls I've seen Luck throw him and other Stanfor receiver are very high in the air. Ed Reed and other NFL safeties drool at the sight of an Andrew Luck deep ball and it could be a problem.



I had a dream the other night that we are 3 years down the road watching Andrew Luck quarterback the Colts exactly how Aaron Rodgers is running the Packers. That would be great, but it's only a dream. I don't know what the future holds for Andrew Luck or the Colts, I just know I'm skeptical of anyone who says any unproven player is worth 3 first round selections and 2 second round picks. Don't buy into the hype and think about what those picks could mean to a team on the cusp with the best quarterback in league history back under center. I want Super Bowls now, not in 6 to 10 years...

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors.

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BTW I know this is a tough read

I tried to type it out while trying to keep my 2 year old and 4 year old under control. I was having difficulty with both (typing and keeping them under control.)

"It's about the journey--mine and yours--and the lives we can touch, the legacy we can leave, and the world we can change for the better."
— Tony Dungy

by Mark Olson on Dec 28, 2011 7:47 PM EST reply actions  

dont you

have locks on your closets?

by omahacolt on Dec 28, 2011 7:58 PM EST reply actions  

Take Luck

nice points and I appreciate the amount of time you put into the post. I don’t have the time to respond to each of your points, but you have to take Luck if you get the first pick.

  • Sometimes when everyone is telling you something, in this case that Luck is as close to a sure thing at quarterback as there has been in 25 years, you are better off listening to them. There are risks with any draft pick, but you dont want to be the organization who passes up on potentially great player, if that player does fulfill his potential.
  • Manning is much less of a sure thing than Luck considering the fact that noone truly knows if Peyton will be the player he used to be prior to his last two surgeries or if he can ever play again at all.
  • There were 27 years between 1970, when Baltimore traded Unitas, and 1997, when Indianapolis drafted Peyton, when the Colts were a moribund franchise without an elite quarterback.
  • This particular roster has talent, although it is aging. We have seen this season that the difference between a 2 win team and a 10 win team can often be accounted for just by the presence of an elite qb. If you can add Luck for 7 million a year and subtract Peyton’s 28 million, that’s 20 million dollars to use towards upgrading the talent on this team in free agency.
  • Odds are extremely long that Manning will play longer than 4 more years. he is the past. Luck is the long term answer and he is ready to start game 1 as well. To have him be mentored by Manning would be great, but as Kravitz has outlined, that would be cap suicide.
  • Mario Williams missed a good part of this season with an injury. Would that qualify as the Matt Stafford effect? Meanwhile, Stafford has had a great season. Injuries happen in football. But if you can build a quality line to protect your quarterback, they happen less often at Qb than at other positions.
  • The best teams in the NFL, Packers, Saints, and Patriots all do what the Colts started. Get a lead and try to force turnovers by putting pressure on the QB. We don’t have to change what we do at all by drafting Luck. Just do it better.
  • i haven’t heard analysts say that Luck is incapable of throwing the deep ball. Stanford just does not have the type of athletes at wide receivers to stretch the field.

by thomasezekiel77 on Dec 28, 2011 9:32 PM EST reply actions  

Couple things:

I’m not sure you read the entire article, and I’m not offended because it’s a long and jarbled piece but:

No, Mario Williams can not be classified as Stafford effect because even though he is the best player on the team, his position doesn’t have such an incredible effect after he is out. Teams that lost Troy Polamolu, Mario Williams, Darrell Revis, etc survive without those players. They struggle, but survive. The same can’t be said for the 2011 Colts, Rams, Bears among other teams from year’s past.

‘Everyone’ is not telling us he’s the best QB in 25 years. ESPN is. And no one has credited player scouts, we’ve just heard ESPN analysts say that. The true experts have said he’s really good, but I haven’t heard them say he’s the best in 25 years.

The reason I am concerned about the previous paragraph is that we keep dismissing big question marks. Keep in mind I didn’t say flaws, I said questions marks. You yourself stated that we don’t know if he can throw the deep ball because he didn’t have the talent. I say he did have it in Chris Owusu when he was in the lineup and the balls he threw him were not NFL balls. They were very high in the air and found the target, but would have given plenty of time for an NFL safety to catch up and pick off the pass or at least knock it away. Why are we okay dismissing something just because, ‘we haven’t seen if he can or can’t’? That is what worries me. When we don’t know, so we assume he can do it.

I can’t believe you left the Steelers out of the best teams. They are the gold standard of the NFL and how to be in contention every single year. The other teams seem to come and go. When their QBs are gone, they will all struggle. The Steelers will still fight hard regardless of their QB.

There are no guarantees with Luck. He will come in to a lot of pressure to preform right away, which Ryan Leaf attributes to the reason why he failed. Andrew Lucks poop stinks too. He throws picks and makes bad decisions at time. Analysts are hoping he’ll grow out of it, but there is no guarantee that he will.

People keep asking what we’ll think if the Colts pass on Luck and he ends up being a HOFer. I wonder what we’ll think if he ends up being average and the Colts were offered 3- first round picks and 2- second rounders.

"It's about the journey--mine and yours--and the lives we can touch, the legacy we can leave, and the world we can change for the better."
— Tony Dungy

by Mark Olson on Dec 29, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

GREAT POST

Really captures what I think as well. I would argue that having Luck and Manning on the team next year would not put the team in cap hell. The number one pick will get around a $25 million bonus, half of what that pick used to get.
The transition from Manning is going to have to come sooner or later and it will be difficult and emotional. Why not start it with one of the best QB prospects in decades?

by javen on Dec 29, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

People are so quick to forget

Tom Brady – can someone remind me what round he was drafted.. and also the ‘Discount Double Check’ Aaron Rodgers what number, what about this years record breaking QB Brees, who was traded when he got injured? None of those guys are #1 picks but all are great QB with SB rings and are in contention to win another one.

I beleive a system is what makes a good QB, frankly right now Andrew Luck will be as good as Curtis if the Coaching staff stays the same. No help on defense and most likely dismall next 4 season. Maybe then the next greatest QB prospect will be coming out too. He is this years best prospect, but not next years and the year after, there is no one to say that a late pick QB that everyone passes on might just be the next Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees.

by kbreboot on Dec 29, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

frankly right now

you are wrong. manning was good with this staff.

the next brady comes around how often?

by omahacolt on Dec 29, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

Well said. Fans cannot get caught up in all the “best ever QB” hype since its the team or system where the QB develops. I am not confident this current coaching staff can develop a QB and its not Manning’s job to do so either. The Colts will be fine by getting better coaches, drafting better (which hopefully last year is a good step), stop overpaying for aging vets, and occasionally digging more into FA.

by Straight Out The Burbs on Dec 29, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Stafford Affect?

I dont get that wholly.

He was injured when the Lions team last year finished ths season with 4 straight wins.

In that regard, a quality back-up, (with a much improved Defense) was key to that win streak

Go Blue!

Revenue - Expenses = Profit

by dezznutz1001 on Dec 29, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

i think that what this blog intended

Colts have problems on Defense turnover ratio this season is woeful.

by kbreboot on Dec 29, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I see what you did there . . .
If you lose one of your good defenders, you’re not totally out of luck

even if you didn’t.

That said I completely agree with you. I would only do it if you can stay with a top 10 pick as one of your picks this year. The Browns seem to be perfect trade partners in this scenario as you could get their 5 as part of the package and still get an elite player this year.

I’ll take 3-4 years of the guy who has been the best QB in the league vs. a chance on the next big thing. That said it all depends on Manning’s health. If the Colts are confident he can be fully recovered before draft day then I’m all for retooling and going for a run with Manning again. If they aren’t confident then I have to agree you take Luck and start over.

Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?

by halfchest on Dec 29, 2011 12:50 AM EST reply actions   2 recs

You're right the Panthers aren't going to the playoffs.

However, I bet they wouldn’t trade Newton for Von Miller and draft picks.

How does he do it?

by It's Magc on Dec 29, 2011 7:47 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

If they were offered Von Miller along with a first and 2 second round picks...

They might take it. The real difference though is Cam Newton has proven he can play in the NFL. Andrew Luck has proven that he has a lot of the tools that make a good NFL Quarterback.

"It's about the journey--mine and yours--and the lives we can touch, the legacy we can leave, and the world we can change for the better."
— Tony Dungy

by Mark Olson on Dec 29, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Now they wouldnt, hindsight being what it is

but before lastyears draft if offered? Maybe, who knows.

The main difference with Carolina is they DESPERATELY NEEDED a Qb, we DONT

Go Blue!

Revenue - Expenses = Profit

by dezznutz1001 on Dec 29, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Your starting defense backfield just got serious in a league heavily defined by the pass. Look at the Jets, great pass D no pass O, probably missing the playoffs. You have to be able to pass the ball.

How does he do it?

by It's Magc on Dec 29, 2011 7:52 AM EST reply actions  

The Jets defense is good not great this year...

I feel like they prove my point as well. They’ve been building their team around a QB they expected to be great for them. In the last 3 years they’ve spent more of their picks on offensive players and they’ve traded away picks to build their offensive passing game. Revis is the only player right now that makes their team good. Their safeties are awful.

"It's about the journey--mine and yours--and the lives we can touch, the legacy we can leave, and the world we can change for the better."
— Tony Dungy

by Mark Olson on Dec 29, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry

Your starting defense backfield just got serious in a league heavily defined by the pass.

Look at the Jets, great pass D no pass O, probably missing the playoffs. You have to be able to pass the ball.

How does he do it?

by It's Magc on Dec 29, 2011 7:53 AM EST reply actions  

You have to admit

The Jets have invested a lot maybe too much in the pass though. They’ve been unsuccessful. All I’m saying is the difference between good and great doesn’t win Super Bowls. Taking pressure off of your quarterback with a solid defense does.

The Colts will still need a good Quarterback. I’d just rather they not throw all of their eggs in one basket for 1 guy. If they can get RG III or Matt Barkley or someone else that could possibly be the next stud, then great. What if you’re looking at RG III becoming Cam Newton with a better arm and down-field vision? Would you rather have him and 2 future first rounders than Andrew Luck?

"It's about the journey--mine and yours--and the lives we can touch, the legacy we can leave, and the world we can change for the better."
— Tony Dungy

by Mark Olson on Dec 29, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

you are playing

the what if game only when it benefits you

you take the best qb. period. thats what you do. that is what winners do. the dolphins passed on brees because they were scared. how dumb was that?

by omahacolt on Dec 29, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

omg

the dophins were not the only team that was scared off with a QB that had just come back from a SERIOUS injury. you cannot sit in your judgement chair now and say that was a bad decision when NO ONE wanted to touch Brees except NO. you’ve been on record saying to get rid of manning and just get luck because of HIS injury which is the same as Brees and rivers so your hypocritical on this. how dumb was that for san diego chargers.

by Straight Out The Burbs on Dec 29, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

nope

i am not on record by just saying get rid of manning. i am on record saying i want both players if i can have them. i just dont think manning will make a full recovery. take luck and get rid of manning if it has to be one or the other. i have always maintained that

the point is that the saints werent afraid to go after a very good qb even though he was no sure thing. he turned out to be elite.

the reason rivers was drafted was because brees wasnt playing well. rivers rookie year was the first year brees played very well. the chargers had to ditch brees because of the investment in rivers. the injury just made it an easy decision

by omahacolt on Dec 29, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

i am not a blogger

that just sounds gay

get rid of manning if he cant play or he wants to force his way out. when have i ever said otherwise

by omahacolt on Dec 29, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

i'll give you that even if that was not the main point of my response.

my response was more about how someone could dog out the dolphins about an injured QB and call them stupid looking hindsight. no one could have seen that coming.

you do have a valid point as far as current application since peyton is older and more surgeries. However its not just as simple as drafting Luck is the ONLY option if given the chance and any other way is “stupid” as my young friend likes to tell everyone. You just don’t push out a legend like Manning or sit a #1 pick behind him for another 2 – 3 years and have no ramifications with the team, fan base, or the win loss record.

by Straight Out The Burbs on Dec 29, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

once again

i dont want manning gone. yet

the saints saw it coming with brees. that injury wasnt a career ender like before. pennington had come back from it. granted he got reinjured but thats dumb luck

if a legend needs to go and he wont go then you sure do push that legend out. that isnt to manning per se but it is just how things operate. legends are legends for a reason. because they cant play anymore.

there will be a time to move on from manning. having luck behind him would be a very good idea

by omahacolt on Dec 29, 2011 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I am not just playing the what if game when it benefits my argument

My argument is that ‘analysts’ and ‘experts’ are using the what if game only to benefit them. This article is meant to give the other half of the story everyone seems to ignore. I’m not saying that the what if doesn’t work the other way too. I’m saying the things I listed are often ignored.

"It's about the journey--mine and yours--and the lives we can touch, the legacy we can leave, and the world we can change for the better."
— Tony Dungy

by Mark Olson on Dec 30, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Your point makes sense

But you have to remember that coaching staff and co-ordinators have a lot to do with the failing of the offense and defense. I coached unders 12’s basketball team(in Australia by the way), i inherited a team with 1 player that was talented and 2 that could play and the rest were rugby players. I took them from a winless team to the grand finals. All it took was using there individual strengths and training them up. Went on to win the next 4 seasons up till U14. I never had the talent or height other teams had but I thought of ways to win. That is the coaching staffs job. Look at 49ers, all it took was a Head Coach and change in coaching staff. Not the greatest offense but they get it done, with one of the better defense.

Having said all that I think Colts need to look hard at their coaching and the schemes they used. This season has been really poor for the defense on the 3rd and long, although the texans game was impressive.

by kbreboot on Dec 29, 2011 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree, I m in the camp to fire the coaches

The reason is simple, it took them to long to realize that a change in game plan was needed with the new personnel. I have been a youth coach for years and it’s the coaches job to make plans for the strengths of your players. Leaders/coaches get paid to think, make decisions and put their people in the best possible way to win.

by armycolts25 on Dec 29, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

more like no unproven players is worth that many picks

I say trade down and get a future first round and second round picks. I believe the best thing now is to get everything around Manning younger including the defense that once manning is done with Football you bring in a young talent into the roster that is throwing to 3-4 year experience players, a team that generally has matured 4 years.

by kbreboot on Dec 29, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

RG3

More passing yards thsi year thean Luck
more passign TD’s then Luck, albeit one
more rusing TD’s then Luck

Hiesman Winner
From Military family.
RG3 has already graduated with 4 year degree

THROWS a BETTER DEEP BALL

Go Blue!

Revenue - Expenses = Profit

by dezznutz1001 on Dec 29, 2011 3:47 PM EST reply actions  

RG3

rumored to care more about the olympics than football

cares more about becoming a lawyer and agent than a top notch pro qb. those were his words. or at least paraphrased words

this kid would scare the hell out of me if i were a gm. talented kid but is his head all into football

by omahacolt on Dec 29, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

How Deep balls do you see QB makes now adays

if you can’t run the ball there is no deep ball. And as i can remember the ones that matter the most in throws are the tightly thrown but accurate 1 to 20 yards when you in the red zone. This is no freshman football where you can keep slinging it down field. This is NFL with quality corners and safeties, not to forget the 300 pound boulders trying to destroy you on their way to the football. Its funny it takes 10 yards to make a first down and i hardly think that needs a deep ball pass. This years 2x 99TD passes were thrown short of the 10 yrds but went all the way.

by kbreboot on Dec 29, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

RGIII doesn't just throw the deep ball.

This isn’t Jamarcus Russell 2.0. He makes good reads and has better timing than even Andrew Luck with his receivers. The reason Luck’s timing probably isn’t as good is most likely because he doesn’t have the receivers RGIII has. It’s still a valid question to ask, ‘Since we haven’t seen how Luck would preform with NFL quality receivers, can we say that he would be great if he did have them?’ We can assume he probably would, but there is no way to know.

I also can’t get over how much zip RGIII gets on the ball, his incredible footwork, and his ability to make big plays when the defense appears to give him no wiggle room. The guy is a playmaker, plain and simple.

"It's about the journey--mine and yours--and the lives we can touch, the legacy we can leave, and the world we can change for the better."
— Tony Dungy

by Mark Olson on Dec 30, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

anytime experts and scouts say this is a can’t miss prospect it always concerns me. every can’t miss pick the last several years have missed, especially QB’s. its all a guessing game. RG3 has the better stats including beating better competition and better physical tools where as Luck has better overall intangibles. Either way both of these QB’s are going to be good pros so fans with both QB’s are going to be happy.

A better debate for me would be if it was last year and it was Luck versus Cam Newton.

by Straight Out The Burbs on Dec 30, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

also

less picks than luck

88, 32, 7, 21, 17, 31

by carmelsown on Dec 30, 2011 11:05 AM EST reply actions  

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