I agree with strandedincarolina
by Indemnitor on Aug 15, 2011 4:57 PM EDT
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Look, I get what everyone says about how the Colts have had crazy sustained success compared to the vast majority of football teams. But to me, thats simply because we have Peyton Manning, a truly all-time great and the best player in the league, year in year out, who plays the most important position. Its the same reason the Patriots are having crazy sustained success, because even though as a Michigan Wolverines fan I don't get how it happened, Tom Brady is also an all-time great and the 2nd best player in the league, year in year out.
Belichick is overrated, because of the combination of this demeanor and results, but he is a good coach and runs a good organization. The Colts are also a decently run organization long-term, although I don't see Jim Caldwell as a good NFL coach. I don't hate him and I don't think he matters that much outside of some timeout gaffes and the such.
The problem I see, and the reason I think the Patriots have had a bit more success over the long-haul than the Colts, is that they seem to have a better understanding that they have an all-time great QB, a player who instantly makes the team at least a respectable, close to 8-8 team, with fringe players at EVERY other position (ok. I don't mean high school football players, but you know, within reason NFL players, maybe some with experience all of whom just really aren't good by NFL standards).
Sure the Patriots liked have Randy Moss with Welker for those couple years, until Moss even started to hint at being annoying. He Gone. Its not that they don't want good WRs and all of the weapons and toys Brady could want. Its that this is not the be-all, end-all. With Brady, what they need, are receivers who can at least function, maybe throw in a few mismatches from time to time, run some ok routes. They don't need to have 2 RBs, 2 WRs, a TE all from the 1st round of drafts, most of whom are pretty young still.
They've had that (at least part-time) 3-4 defense that mucks it up. With large men in the middle. Vince Wilfork is fat. And he's pretty good. They always have had that reliable 3rd down back (Faulk) That reliable all-around RB who wasn't Addai in the 1st round (Morris) A consistenly solid O-line. It's not that beautiful Brazilian soccer game where when Peyton puts up 21 in the first quarter and then Freeney and Mathis go to WORK, and everything runs so smoothly we actually consider taking Peyton out for a few snaps. I get it, MJD and Sproles 7 yards a carry and 10 yards a screen just can't make up that kind of deficit -- those games when it all happens, its NFL perfection. The Pats D mucks it up, it does ok, and it does ok reliably. Because they still have that piece that reliably is an all-time great, and plays the most important position, and can make Blair White look good. He would have gotten some TDs on the Patriots last year too if they had him in as a 3rd WR for chunks of game time.
I don't know if its the front office having this ultimate plan which I think is clearly flawed despite Peyton, or its Peyton's perfectionism that requires having us draft receievers and TEs and RBs and DEs to tailor to that beautiful game plan of Peyton perfectness. Maybe Ugoh being a bust was just luck and thats what we ended up with. I just think the better way to reliably win Super Bowls (in football, where you can lose any given Sunday) is the way the Patriots have reliability rather than a combo of greatness/flaws around their all-time great QB.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors.
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Really?
The only reason the Patriots have been this good for that long is because of DEFENSE. It has nothing to do with who’s QB’ing their team. That team loaded up on defense from day one.
The top 3 most successful franchises since Manning came into the league outside the Colts are the Steelers, Patriots, and Eagles. All have the most playoff appearances, most championship game appearances, and the Colts/Steelers/Patriots account for almost a SB a year appearance between the 3.
The Steelers are the same way, as they load up on defense and run. The Eagles? Defense and the passing game of McNabb. They were one of the worst running offenses in the league, but it still got them 5 NFC Championship game appearances and 1 SB appearance.
I’m sorry, but the two of you need to quit whining. The reality is I’d rather have my team in the hunt every year like they are and have a chance to win it every year.
Should the Colts have won more? I’ll agree with that, but that’s why it’s single game elimination….whoever plays best that day is the winner….
If you think the Patriots success has nothing to do with Tom Brady, I’ll have to stop reading and responding to your comment after the first sentence.
Some of their success does
have to do with Brady, but not all of it does. The fact of the matter is that they won more on their defense early in his career than they did on Brady’s back.
I’m not taking away from Brady, I’m merely pointing out that he played a game manager early in his career and was able to utilize his defense because he had one.
by DevilsReject on Aug 15, 2011 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at Sanchez
That was Brady in his first 2-3 seasons. He was not the second coming of Joe Montana, he was merely a good QB who could rely on his defense.
And before you even call bs on that, stats prove otherwise…
by DevilsReject on Aug 15, 2011 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Really? It's not even close.
Brady, 01-02 – 6500 yards, 1000 attempts, at 62%, 46 TDs, 26 INTs, rating of roughly 85, one Super Bowl GW drive, led the league once in TDs.
Sanchez, 09-10 – 5700 yards, 800 attempts at 54%, 29 TDs, 33 INTs, Rating of 70… Played in two conference championship games, second in interceptions one year.
Same amount of wins, but the Jets D in 09 and 10 was miles above the Pats D from 01-02.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
Eh
You missed the point. All I was saying is that Brady did not have to be a Dan Marino type player early in his career. They relied on good field position and quality defense.
And actually, those two comparisons are pretty close given that the Jets were essentially the top rushing team in 09 and were a top 5-8 in 2010. The Patriots were more passing than running.
Brady 01-02 (SB win, missed playoffs following year)
Sanchez 09-10 (two AFC championship appearances, both losses)
I’d say that is pretty even…
by DevilsReject on Aug 16, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. Also, I think it’ s worth noting the better Brady has gotten individually the less playoff success the Pats have had.
How does he do it?
by It's Magc on Aug 16, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And
Manning who had a lot of offensive firepower early on, had the same struggles. Once he won his first SB however, it seems his struggles are less and less and the Colts issues are standing out more and more..
by DevilsReject on Aug 16, 2011 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Because his team got old and retired.
It happens.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
Sanchez threw less than Brady,
And put up terrible completion percentage, TD and INT numbers. Brady led the league in TD passes in 02, and had a QB rating 15 points higher than Sanchez over their first two years starting. If Sanchez ever leads the league in anything other than INTs (that being a bad thing), I’ll buy his jersey.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
The point is, that Brady wasn't really the major key to their success (apart apart from Super Bowl XXXVIII when the defense decided not to play the 4th quarter)
Of course, starting in the 2004 season he really became a great QB. Up until that point, he really was no better than Jeff Garcia, or even a Mark Brunell (in his prime). His defense just happened to be extremely resourceful in 2001, and great in every way in 2003 (again, up until the Super Bowl).
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
He was still better than Sanchez,
And asked to do a bit more.
But yes, they both were and are defensive-minded teams.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
Agreed.
Amazed you didn’t get all pissy about my comparison to Garcia and Brunell, btw.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
He was only in his first year, so matching some good veterans isn't bad.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
Sometimes
Writing doesn’t construe a comment well. I was by no means implying that Sanchez was as good or even on equal footing as Brady. Brady has always been the better QB. I was merely pointing out that their careers started off very much the same in terms of the way the team was developed/the way they were used.
by DevilsReject on Aug 17, 2011 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions
They relied on Brady a bit more than the Jets on Sanchez though.
But yes, he was in there to make up the difference on 3rd downs, not shred the defense for 400 yards. At least for his first few games.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
don't forget....
What was Belichick’s record in Cleveland? Say what you want about Caldwell but he’s been more successful that Bill Belichick was in his first two years………I know…I know…..it’s all Manning………(when we win)…..folks…..the coaching staff did an incredible job getting last years team into the playoffs….17 players on IR…..Manning with the four game slide when he through 12 picks in four games….and still make the playoffs? I guess Caldwell can’t get any credit for that……….
I’m not going claim I know everything about what a coach does, but Caldwell doesn’t exude confidence the way a Dungy or Belichick does, and I’ve gotten pissed about specific things he’s done that I can claim to know about (in-game decisions and demeanor).
Anyway, I wasn’t calling out Caldwell. I mentioned Caldwell and Belichick to illustrate that I DONT think thats the issue — I think its the team philosophy/makeup.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not sayign we haven’t had success. I’m just saying that maybe we are not getting as much as we could with Manning.
And yes, it’s all Manning, for any and all intents and purposes. since Trudeau and George and Harbaugh.
Caldwell
doesnt get credit because he doesnt play hes not the one making the decisions on who to bring in for the players on IR and he doesnt out coach a brick wall. Manning gets credit for winning because 9 times out of 10 its the offense winning not the defense and doesnt get slammed for losing because that mostly bad coach (time outs, not adjusting) and defense/ special teams
example: Jets game in the playoffs Manning lead us to the lead, who screwed it up? coach, ST, defense
Superbowl: out coached, SP losing the onside kick, defense not getting an important stop so Manning didnt have to have some sort of miracle comeback (not to mention the general thought of the saints being favored by refs)
hahahah!
if the O converts the 3rd and 6 with 1:40 to go in the 4th, the Jets never see the ball again……..let’s face it, the O should be the one’s winning the games for us……they are the strength of the team…..not the D,……..I say again, don’t expect the 85 Bears D to come out of the locker room…..
…I thought it was just me…….I know that I heard the ref say “BLUE” ball during the onside kick scrum………Baskett had the ball…….the one ref even signaled Colts ball…..
by 33rd Street on Aug 15, 2011 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Ifs
didnt happen, the things i said did
if we had a touchdown on first and 10
if we had a running game
if Garcon could catch a ball that wasnt highlight reel difficult
Yes the O line SHOULD BE winning the game but why then did we not go for it on 4th down why the did Caldwell say he relied on the D to make a stop or get the ball back
If we expect our offense to win the game the coach shouldnt be putting it in the hands of the shaky defense
and the call was to Colts originally but they changed it randomly and it was non reviewable with that you add a touchdown to the colts take one off the saints plus take the INT off since we wouldnt be in comeback mode and we are running out the clock that last drive instead of throwing down field
Belichick also had a team quit halfway through a season,
10 months after winning a playoff game for the first time in 5 years.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
Also
Manning and the Colts were just as successful before Caldwell therefore he hasnt proven that hes any good at coaching if the teams going along exactly the same as they were before him hes obviously not making a difference
If anything players are acting stupider off the field and playing worse
Ie: 2009 most comeback 4th quarter wins in a single season you think caldwell was captain of that ship or it was Manning leading the team down the field at the last minute keeping the dream season alive until it was ruined by benching the starters the failings in the SB that i already covered
OK.....
Manning is a FANTASTIC player……..arguably the best QB to ever play…..1st ballot HOF……but he doesn’t do it alone……..he hasn’t been great all of the time either (he is human, some people forget that)….don’t forget that he threw 7 picks (in the playoffs) in the SB run in 2006……it wasn’t all him……….but I’ll take Manning…….any day……GO COLTS…..
Its waaaaay more Belichick then Brady
Kraft – 10%, just because owners aren’t that influential when it comes to who-to-sign and who-not-to-sign.
Belichick – 60%, because he is one of the if not the greatest coach in history. He gets Moss an uses him to light up every defense in the league, and then cuts him and lights up every defense in the league anyways.
Brady – 30%, because of his ability to execute, his accuracy, and leadership skills. Hes a great QB, but as you saw in 2008 we went 11-5 without him. Without Manning the Colts are like 5-11.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Aug 16, 2011 2:22 PM EDT reply actions
Woah woah woah.
11-5 vs the NFC West with a team that went 18+59:25 – 0 the year before isn’t the same as a normal 11-5 season.
I’d put it closer to an equal share. Kraft stays out of the way of the football operations, Belichick is Belichick, and Brady Brady. 3 vital pieces all working as one.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
But Brady
at best controls the offense. Belichick does the drafting, training, game-planning, manages the roster, and to some some-degree coordinates the offense, defense, and special teams.
Brady, on the other hand, to some-degree coordinates the offense, does some clock management, and other then that just executes.
Brady is like the gun, Belichick is like the soldier.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Aug 16, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
It's still more about the players
Belichek was 36 wins and 44 losses as Browns coach. Having Brady, Manning, Brees etc. can make you an awfully smart coach.
"I do the usual. I bowl, I drive, I have the ocassional acid flashback"
"Dude" from the Big Lebowski
He was 36-44 because he took over an absolutely terrible team.
He went 6-10, 7-9, 7-9, and 11-5 before Modell left town, so throw out 95, or at least after the announcement (they were 4-5 at the time). And then he took a team missing its key player to 11-5 in 08.
It always comes down to the players. But he’s been able to find guys on the scrapheap or role players from other teams, and utilise them effectively, and they turn into Pro Bowlers.
Different strategies as to how to build a team. One is based on winning games 14-10, especially when it’s in the northeast in January and more than 17 points is out of the question, vs the Colts’ “maximise Manning’s game, force the other team to play from behind”. Maybe it reflects the relative draft strategies when the GMs came in: one had the #1 pick and took his franchise QB, the other found his amongst late round jags and UFAs.
One put everything on 00s, the other spread it around evenly. Both are sitting in the black right now (the spread strategy a bit ahead), but the spread is assured of at least getting something back regardless of the result of each roll. The 00s will bust out as soon as the ball doesn’t stop on green.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
and the last time Brady was not QB the Patriots missed the playoffs.
I am not denying Belichick is a very good coach but he is not the messiah. He is a hall of fame coach but take away Manning from Dungy and Brady from Belichick and they would have a different legacy.
"I do the usual. I bowl, I drive, I have the ocassional acid flashback"
"Dude" from the Big Lebowski
11-5
is almost always good enough to make the playoffs. Its not like they were 4-12 or something.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Aug 16, 2011 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's an ongoing argument, but I don't think it's mutually exclusive
Belichick is an excellent coach and Brady is an excellent QB. I don’t think it has to be “one made the other”
Keep the faith!
Its rare, but you're wrong
The Browns got the Wild Card in 2002. That was a crazy year, as that’s the last time the Browns, Raiders adn 49ers made the playoffs, and the Raiders were a #1 seed with an 1—5 record.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Maybe they were 1-5-10. Suppose there were a lot of ties that year.
Just took 1 victory to win the division. Oh, no, wait, I’m thinking of soccer.
Being in politics is like being a football coach. You have to be smart enough to understand the game and dumb enough to think it's important. -- Eugene J. McCarthy
by zherebyonki on Aug 17, 2011 3:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That crazy.
But really looking back, it was kind of the bridge year between the old Favre/49er/Greatest Show on Turf/Buccaneers era and the Pats/Steelers/Colts era, and by the records it showed.
Best record in the league was 12-4. You had the Titans start the year 1-4 and end up with a bye. You had a tie game. Tommy Maddox was a playoff QB. The Raiders were good. The Saints were #3 in the NFL in scoring offense. Just bizarre all around.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
1-5?
1-5? One-five?
I knew what you meant, just went with the “team can win one game and be top seed” angle.
I know the Raiders were good, amazing what an MVP QB and some competent players can do for a team.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
I know I made the typo. It was supposed to be 11-5, and I added an extra "-" for no reason whatsoever.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Browns won a playoff game, then.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
you're right
I missed that one blip in their record. What a depressing organization, littered with short-term coaches and years of losing records.
Keep the faith!
I actually thought they were a little too hasty firing Butch Davis.
A lot like the Bills getting rid of Mike Mularkey for Dick Jauron. Patience is very underrated.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
I think Brady and Bellichick
are about equal as far as their contributions to the Patriots’ success. I think in 2001, Bellichick had more to do w/ their success but Brady was a big part of the 2003, 2004 teams. It wasn’t until 2005 that he really became a guy that could carry a weak team into the playoffs. I think it’s the same thing w/ Sean Payton and Drew Brees. Both guys are responsible for New Orleans success b/c both work well together. Sean Payton comes up w/ the schemes and Brees executes it just like it’s drawn up. Brady leads the offense and Bellichick is able to design the offense to best take advantage of whoever his personelle is.
That’s one reason I find Manning’s success so incredible. While I love Tony Dungy, the Colts run the same offense w/ Tom Moore and the same vanilla Cover 2 defense every year. Yet they still go to the playoffs every year, have the same issues on Defense every year, and the offense is always in the Top 5. I feel like Belichick adapts to change along his roster. The Colts force ALL of their players to be able to run the same offense and defense as they have always run. The fact that the opponent knows what the Colts are going to do and them still being successful speaks volumes to Manning’s ability. The fact that he throws the same routes from the same formation year in and year out is incredible. I also feel like because Dungy was often a conservative coach, I feel like there were times that he held Manning back a bit. If you look at the first 5 games or so of the 2009 season, Caldwell was very agressive w/ the offense and that stretch was probably the best of Peyton Manning’s career. If Caldwell would just coach w/ that mentality every week than I think the Colts be a LOT more successful than they already are.
"Roll up, wait a minute
Let me put some kush up in it" - Dr. Dre
by P0RKINS2 on Aug 17, 2011 12:29 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
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