Stats Prove It: Brady Is Now a Choker
by rmexico6000 on Feb 7, 2012 10:17 AM EST
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PrintIf there is anything I've hated is the constant media narrative of Tom Brady as "Mr. Clutch", when his most recent playoff performances have shown he is anything but clutch.
In Super Bowl XLVI and in Super Bowl XLII he had two golden opportunities to truly take the mantle as the next Joe Montana. Both Super Bowls he gets the ball without about a minute left in the game, needing a touchdown to win. His combined "last minute drive" stats in these two Super Bowls?
2 of 10 for 30 yards, 0 TDs and 2 sacks
Pathetic
I guess Brady found out its not as easy to win a Super Bowl when you actually have to drive the length of the field rather than a long FG. Perhaps Brady realizes now how hard it is to win a ring when your defense is completely unable to get the opposing team off the field.
Remember, he choked again in the 2007 AFC Title Game vs. the Colts. About a minute to play, needing a touchdown to win. His stats? 2 of 4, for 34 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT
So, the last three BIG GAME situations where he has the ball with a chance to win it his combined stats are:
4 for 14, 64 yards, 0TDs 1 INT 2 Sacks and a completion rate of 28.5%
So please, Pat Fans, your Golden Boy isn't the greatest QB of all time or even this era. Tom Brady has NEVER won a championship since he's become the focal point of his Team's offense.
Since the Pats have shifted from a "Defense First" philosophy to a "Tom Brady First" philosophy, Brady has won ZERO rings.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Stampede Blue's writers or editors.
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Brought a tear to my eye
This is one of the most beautiful, uplifting articles I’ve ever read. You just made my day!!
Factor in...
His 4th quarter stats against the Ravens in this season’s AFCCG:
3 for 6, 20 yards, 0TD’s 1 INT
Or his last 2 drives of that game:
1 for 3, 7 yards, 0TD’s 1 INT
He’s under-performed in the post-season dating all the way back to their 2005 loss against the Broncos. And he’s been a choke artist under pressure (see: 2006 AFCCG, 2007 SB, 2011 AFCCG, 2011 SB)
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I am no Pats or Brady fan
but I think you guys need to reevaluate the term “choke”. You can lose and not choke. The Giants played out of their minds in the last 5 minutes of the 4th qtr. The Giants won. If anyone choked, it would be his receivers…Again, I am glad the Giants won but he isnt a “choker”.
Brady has gotten better as a quarterback since 2004,
but the Patriots have gotten worse. Clutch is an enigma.
To add to that point, Eli Manning is not clutch.
And Tom Brady is not a choker.
by James Broschat on Feb 7, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Eli
He broke Peyton’s regular season record for TDs in the fourth quarter with 15. He had 8 game winning drives in the 4th quarter or overtime this year. 2 more than the next guys, Alex Smith and Tim Tebow. He has five career game winning drives in the playoffs. 2 were TD drives in the Super Bowl, and both happened with less than 1 minute left in the game.
The fact that people still see him as a second tier QB, but he still seems to come through for his team when it matters most, makes him clutch. When Peyton does it, he’s just being consistent. When Eli does it, it is more abnormal. That’s where his clutch label comes from. That, and the fact that nearly every one of his stats improves each quarter when you look at his career stats.
by PeytonTheManning on Feb 7, 2012 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
That doesn't make him clutch.
He played well in the fourth quarter this year. That doesn’t make him clutch. He should have played well in the first three quarters as well. Acting like one quarter is more important than others is asinine.
by James Broschat on Feb 7, 2012 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
It's by far the most important
The fourth quarter is where legends are made. Is Joe Montana to Dwight Clark a legendary play in the first quarter? Is it a bad play, because they should have played better the other three? Would the busted coverage that opened up Plaxico in SB 42 have been replayed over and over, if it was in the second quarter?
Being clutch in the fourth is how Jordan, Bird, Montana, Elway, and numerous other greats have cemented their legacies. The great ones step up when their teams need them most.
Also, he had just under 5000 passing yards. Sorry that’s not good enough for you for the other three quarters. Saying the fourth quarter is not the most important, or that he should have played better are the asinine statements here.
by PeytonTheManning on Feb 8, 2012 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying it's a bad play, it's a very good play.
But if it’s made in the first quarter they don’t have to do it there. It’s simple. Why should they be given more credit for doing it later rather than sooner? It’s a great, memorable moment, but it doesn’t make it a better play.
You should be able to make great plays in all quarters. Jordan, Bird, Montana, Elway, etc. were great players. They stepped up at ALL times because they were great players. They made plays because that’s who they were. They’re great players. They didn’t get a magic boost because the clock ticked past a certain point.
by James Broschat on Feb 8, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
I disagree wholeheartedly
All of those players were cold blooded closers. Montana didn’t lose a Super Bowl. Jordan flat out took over games in the fourth. Clutch players step up when everyone else feels the pressure. Check out Lebron James. He’s the perfect example of the flaws in your logic. Is he a good player? Probably the best in the game today. Would you pick him over Kobe in the fourth quarter of game 7 in the finals? Only if you’re betting on the other team. That’s what clutch is. Reggie Miller never won an MVP. There’s still nobody I would want taking a last second shot over Reggie in his prime.
Clutch exists. Tiger Woods used to enter the final round of tourneys with a one shot lead and win by 8. He played three rounds only one stroke better. When the pressure was on, he took it to a new level while his competition didn’t.
Also, they were winning 9-0 in the first quarter. He made plays in the first. He can’t help it if his defense allowed New England to take back the lead. He just went out there and put together a TD drive in the final minute of a Super Bowl, for the second time. It’s only happened four times ever. He has two.
All professional athletes are the best in the world at what they do. Usually, there are about 10% who are the elites in their sports. The guys who are looked at as all-time greats are the ones who don’t accept losing. I truly doubt Jordan would have been dancing two hours after losing the championship like Gronkowski.
by PeytonTheManning on Feb 8, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Despite the obvious hilarities at comparing basketball to football, I'll humor you.
Jordan: The best ever. He took over games all the time, not just the fourth. He propelled his teams to six titles because he was the best ever, not because some magic “clutch” factor. He also didn’t win a championship for his first six seasons. Did he just decide after those seasons that he’d never lose again? No. He’s just awesome at basketball, and succeeded most of the time.
Lebron vs. Kobe: Lebron has been, in your words, both “clutch” (2007 Eastern Championship) and a “choker” (last year) in the playoffs. He’s great at times, but inconsistent against elite teams and has attitude problems. He’s not a choker.
Kobe is one of the best players to ever play the game, and while I hate him personally, he has a much more consistent game than Lebron. Kobe also has a much better jump shot than Lebron, which is what more often gets the call at the end of games. He’s not clutch, he’s just really good. While he’s had attitude issues as well (Game 7, 2006 vs. Suns), I’d much rather have him than Lebron at any point in a game (as of now).
Miller: Had the best jump shot ever. Not the best player ever, but had a great jump shot. If I had to pick one person to knock down a shot, I’d pick him too. Not because he’s clutch. Because he’s probably the best shooter ever.
Woods: Has won and lost tourneys. You’re just saying stuff with no stats, facts, etc. to back it up. How has Woods played over his career in the last round? Does he really average a significantly better score?
Montana: Won 4 Super Bowls. Also lost in the playoffs 7 times. He’s one of the best quarterbacks of all time. So, it stands to reason that he would be successful in the playoffs as well, especially considering he was on some great teams. He may not have lost a Super Bowl, but he did lose in the playoffs, and even missed the playoffs several times. That’s how sports are. The better you are, the more you win (but, remember, football is a team game). That’s why he won a lot. He’s really good.
Eli: He played well all game, I never said he wasn’t. The Giants couldn’t get in the endzone all night, but were moving the ball well. As they should, considering that the Pats defense was terrible this year. What about him doing the same thing he’d done all game was “clutch”? Shoot, Belichick LET THEM score the game winner. Eli played a great game. He had some mistakes (taking sacks, bad third downs at times, etc.), but overall had a great game against a bad defense.
The guys who are looked at as all-time greats are the ones who don’t accept losing.
Yet somehow, everyone loses sometimes. The ones who don’t lose often are A: Really good, and/or B: have a good team.
Clutch and Choke are just words.
by James Broschat on Feb 8, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
So you don't believe in it
Congrats. You have only shown that you never played competitive sports at a decent level, and you don’t listen to any player, former player, announcer, coach, or analyst. They all know that clutch players exist. They give out nicknames like Mr. Big Shot or Clutch.
Anybody who has played sports knows that there are guys who excel under pressure, and there are people who fold. It applies in all walks of life.
Stats for Tiger:
14-1 when going into the final round of a Major either tied or with the lead
48-4 when holding at least a share of the lead after 54 holes. 37-2 when he has the outright lead.
I’ll make this simple.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/espn25/story?page=moments/79
That is the definition of clutch. That is a clutch athlete doing what a clutch athlete does. He wasn’t relying on skill. His body had let him down. The only thing driving him was his ability to shut out everything in the fourth quarter besides winning. You can say anything else you want. That is the epitome of clutch. It exists. Your logic does not. You can debate the existence of momentum all you want. Clutch players exist. It isn’t skill combined with luck. It’s skill combined with an undying desire to destroy their competition.
Lebron is a choker. The only time he played even relatively well in the playoffs was the Eastern Conference Finals with Cleveland. He then choked away the Finals in an embarrassing waste of everyone’s time.
There have been literally hundreds of thousands of catches in NFL history. One is “The Catch”. It was in the fourth quarter of a championship game. When Montana went into the huddle with everybody else nervous about the season ending, he just pointed out that John Candy was in the front row. The moment didn’t phase him when the some others in the huddle admitted they nearly threw up.
Everybody in the world understands clutch players but you. Get over it.
by PeytonTheManning on Feb 8, 2012 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
You clearly haven't played competitive sports
Or maybe you just weren’t good enough to get your number called…
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Clearly.
You have such perspective on things.
by James Broschat on Feb 8, 2012 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just sayin'
It takes a different piece of character, a different state of mind to perform under such critical situations.
This story isn’t bragging one-bit, as I’m sure others on this blog have similar stories. But I was an All-State Basketball player in High School. I played in front of thousands of fans in State Tournaments and AAU tournaments. I played in the SemiFinals of the National tournament – a tournament that featured the best basketball players in the country.
I don’t bring that up to brag (really, it was just high-school) – but to point out that there absolutely is a difference between playing a regular season game, and playing a playoff game. There’s a difference between the first possession, and the last possession. There’s a difference between the first round of playoffs, and the SuperBowl.
Maybe people who haven’t experienced it don’t get it. But trust me, there’s a difference. And that’s why people who exceed in critical circumstances are considered clutch.
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I have experienced it.
I’ve played sports all my life. Any player who is good enough to start in professional sports knows how to handle pressure.
I’m not saying that there’s no such thing as pressure. I’m saying that great players play great all the time (with some mistakes, obviously). Nobody just plays great in “clutch” circumstances. Every player has moments where they perform well and where they falter. Why should we give more credit to someone for doing something in the 4th quarter over the 1st quarter?
by James Broschat on Feb 8, 2012 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
You're missing my point
It’s harder to perform under the ultimate pressure, in “clutch” situations.
When Reggie Miller attempts a 3-pointer in the 1st quarter….He’s loose, he’s in rhythm, he has a clear mind, it’s just another shot, if he misses – he has the rest of the game to make up for it.
When Reggie Miller attempts a 3-pointer with :05 remaining down by 2 points, its the biggest shot of his life, he’s thought about nothing but that shot during the entire Timeout and in-bounds play, he’s got millions of people waiting to critique the outcome of that shot, it’s do-or-die, the crowd is on their feet, the city of Indianapolis is riding on this 1 shot.
Get it yet?
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Sounds good.
But it doesn’t mean anything. It’s still a shot. Miller was a great shooter. He made more than he missed, hence why he was a great shooter.
And, as I said before, comparing basketball to football is pretty silly. Especially when you’re looking at quarterbacks.
by James Broschat on Feb 8, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
Jeez
You really think a shot taken at any point in time is the same degree of difficulty as a potentially game-winning shot in Game 7 of the NBA finals?
That just proves you’ve never played sports, or you’re incredibly stupid/biased.
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Or, it means that you vastly underrate professional athletes.
The good-great players do their job no matter the circumstance.
by James Broschat on Feb 9, 2012 2:08 AM EST up reply actions
And that's what makes them great
They’re clutch.
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So if they do a bad job in a game, they're not clutch?
EVERY game in the NFL is pressure. They’re making millions of dollars and there’s huge pressure to win.
There’s very few players that can be called “clutch” or “chokers” for their careers. And it doesn’t make sense to label players like that. The better the player, the more they win, in any situation. Of course there’s other factors, but overall, clutch is just another word for good.
by James Broschat on Feb 9, 2012 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
He's never going to understand
He quite obviously was never good at sports, and he doesn’t understand how others were. He is probably the guy who attributes it to “god given talent”, and will never accept that the better players out worked him. He apparently never had a clutch player on any team he watched from the sidelines.
He also can’t comprehend what clutch means. How anybody can think back to Jordan playing through the flu, and not understand there’s a difference between skill and clutch, is beyond me. Lebron James is proof that guys can be beyond skilled, and still choke under the ultimate pressure. Hell, 18 points in 6 Finals games last year. He didn’t even take a shot in the fourth quarter of one of them. He just gave up and hoped Wade would do it.
There’s nothing in this conversation that makes me think he’s played sports even semi-successfully. I used to be able to tell who would get a hit for us when we were losing in the last inning based on how they walked to the plate. I loved playing every sport with the game on the line. That was the moment that mattered. Everything else was just a piece of the puzzle to that point. I wanted to put in the final piece. Most of the other players wanted nothing to do with it.
The difference between a clutch player and everyone else is simple. A clutch player wants to take the shot, throw the pass, or hit the homerun to win the game. Everyone else doesn’t want to take the shot, because they don’t want to lose it. It sounds like a cheesy line from a movie or poster, but that’s as simple as it gets.
by PeytonTheManning on Feb 9, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
hahhahah holy shit
that last paragraph is just disgusting, ptm
Took you awhile
I was wondering why you hadn’t chimed in on such a long conversation with some useless comment. I was worried you had died.
by PeytonTheManning on Feb 11, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
Yay
There’s the dumb, pointless comment I’ve come to expect. I was tired of you not wasting my time.
by PeytonTheManning on Feb 12, 2012 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
lol kmbryant
you brought that up to brag and brag only.
it doesnt help your argument at all
Not one bit, buddy.
Sorry. Just pointing out that anyone who has been in a “pressure situation” KNOWS that it’s harder to perform under. I don’t expect many band students to understand what it’s like to play competitive sports in critical situations. But anybody who has been clutch, or has had the opportunity to come up clutch – knows that there’s a difference between performing in the 1st quarter, and the final play of the game. It’s harder to perform in front of 100 million people than by yourself.
Anyways – I do agree with you in the convo with PeytonTheManning. Being clutch isn’t just the difference between wanting to take the shot and not wanting to. You actually have to…..ya know….succeed.
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i have played sports
i have hit game winning hits and i have grounded out to lose games
there really wasnt much of a difference that i could tell. its just kind of the job. or at least thats how i always felt when in a situation like that.
granted there are some people that dont do well under pressure but i think the majority of the people handle it just like they would every other situation. i think clutch is very overrated
I disagree...
I never played baseball past freshman year in High School, so maybe it’s different. Baseball seems like a, “let’s see how this goes, oh well with whatever the outcome may be” type of sport. I don’t mean that as a diss, more-so that baseball is a numbers game, and there always seems to be a “next time”.
As far as basketball (and golf and football, in my career), I’ve always felt the difference in a clutch situation. Whether it was Senior Night with all of my friends in the crowd….SemiFinals of our State Tournament with dozens of scouts in attendance….or playing in National tournaments with dozens of scouts watching. Different circumstances bring on different feelings, and different standards.
Maybe we just come from a different background experience. I just feel that those “pressure moments” require a little extra of “something” – talent, preparation, attitude, being confident, remaining calm, etc. etc.
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i see what you are saying
but what kind of decent player in any sport at any level is going to shit themselves because they are about to shoot a 3 to win the game?
sure some bench warmer high school kid might get intimidated but we are talking about the best of the best. i would guess most people put in those situations are pretty confident in their abilities
Never said
People shit themselves over a game-winning shot.
Just suggesting that there’s a much different feeling when you’re shooting around in a gym by yourself, and when you’re attempting a game-winning shot in front of thousands of people.
And yes, we are talking about the best of the best – which means we are also talking about the biggest stages of all. I believe the SB was watched my 100+ million people – more than how many people voted in our last election. When you know that every single movement, action, throw, catch, play-call, etc. will be critiqued to no end, it puts a lot of pressure on the players and coaches.
Perfect instance is the Belichick daring Manningham to beat him. All he said was don’t let Nicks and Cruz beat them – force Manning to go to Manningham and Poscoe. Yet the media wants to make it sound like BB is the bad guy, who made another horrible decision that cost his team the SB.
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your example is bad
nicks and cruz are better than manningham. any good coach is going to want to limit them
I know...
My point is, because it’s the SB, every single call gets scrutinized, right or wrong.
You think that decision would get criticized if it was the 1st quarter of the 1st game of the season?
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yes i do
but while i have your attention. what is up with coltsauthority? that place is a shit hole. all you guys combine sites and yet bbs destroys you guys in articles posted and commentary?
really not trying to be mean. just offering some criticism of the site. also, nobody gives a damn about dunleavys books or his super bowl diary
i know my opinion means jack shit but that place is bad
I don't think kmbryant writes for Coltsauthority.
by James Broschat on Feb 13, 2012 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
or at least was one of the coltsider guys
regardless. he can pass on the mesage
No worries at all
Soon as they decided to merge together, I was out. I don’t write for them, and I rarely visit their site.
Should probably take it out of my signature, but it took me like 8 days to figure out how to change that.
Good to know that people actually knew I wrote for Coltsider though, I guess!
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I visit and like both of these, but they haven't done anything this week.
by James Broschat on Feb 13, 2012 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
haha
i went to coltsider because i enjoyed arguing with you here
Not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing...
But any publicity is good publicity, right!
It’s nice to engage in some actual analytical conversation with you. Much better than your 1-line responses.
Careful though, I still win the Reggie Bush debate, and I won’t hesitate to bring that up!
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the hell you did
that dude would have been a huge waste of money for us
Really?
He was brought into Miami for a swap of 6th round picks.
And he racked up nearly 1,100 rushing yards (11th in the league), a 5.0 ypa (9th among RB’s – all of which had fewer attempts than Bush). He also caught 43 passes.
And don’t change your argument. It was never about the money with Bush. You argued he was a horrible player, so much in fact, that you didn’t even think it needed factual support.
And you were wrong. He had a great season for Miami.
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While I agree in general...
That Brady has gotten better while the Patriots have gotten worse, there is such a thing as clutch.
I don’t think it’s something that “people are born with”, but if a QB consistently performs well under pressure, late in games, on the biggest stages – then that QB is clutch. If one consistently fails, chokes, or underperforms on the big stage – then that QB is NOT clutch.
Eli Manning has been extremely clutch in both of the Giants’ SB runs. Tom Brady was somewhat clutch in many of the Patriots early-2000’s SB runs. But he really has underperformed/choked/disappointed in the playoffs since their 2005 loss to the Broncos. Brady used to be known as “Mr. Clutch” – something that probably fit up until 2005. Since then, his performance should strip him of that nickname.
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Nope.
Eli Manning just led a game winning drive against one of the worst defenses in the league. He did something he should have. Just because he couldn’t get it done in the beginning of the game doesn’t make it clutch.
by James Broschat on Feb 7, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
So if a QB wins a game uncontested...He's clutch?
No, clutch means coming up big at the biggest moments on the biggest of stages.
You just typed, “Eli Manning led a game winning drive” – if a QB does that in the SB, of 88 yards, mind you….then that is clutch.
He made unbelievable throws throughout the entire playoffs, SB included – and the 2007 SB. That is literally the definition of clutch.
And I’m not an Eli Manning fan. Stop hating.
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I'm not hating.
Eli Manning had a great game. He’s been “coming up big” all season. He did his job very well. That’s not clutch, that’s being an elite quarterback. He did exactly what he should have been expected to do, move the ball against a poor defense. He’d done it all game.
by James Broschat on Feb 8, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
No.
Look up clutch in a dictionary. I’ll save you the time (one definition):
“Tending to be successful in tense or critical situations”
4th quarter of the Superbowl, 3:00 remaining, down by 2 points, ball on your own 12 yard-line.
Is that not a critical enough of a situation? When an athlete (or team) performs well in a critical situation, then said athlete (or team) is considered clutch.
I will point out, however, that being clutch does not necessarily rely on having won or lost the game. Tom Brady was NOT clutch against the Ravens, despite his team winning. Peyton Manning WAS clutch against the Jets in 2010 playoffs, despite his team losing. That is where the media, and many fans, are wrong about being clutch and choking.
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Using clutch to define players is silly.
Good players tend to perform well in critical situations, because they tend to play well in all situations. That doesn’t mean they are perfect. It means they do more good than bad. Brady didn’t do well against one of the best defenses in the league. Eli did well against one of the worst defense. How is one “more clutch”?
Tom Brady has a better QB rating in the last 2 mins of the half this season than Manning does. He also has a better rating when behind by one score or less. How does that fit in your clutch world?
Clutch is created by fans. It’s a moniker used by fans and media. Fans can call people “clutch” but that doesn’t mean anything. Great players perform well in critical situations, because they’re better. It’s football. Every play is critical. One play can swing a game’s entire trajectory.
by James Broschat on Feb 8, 2012 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds like
Tom Brady was clutch in the regular season, and choked in the playoffs.
Seriously, look at those stats in the post:
2 for 10 on the final drives of his SB losses.
2 for 4, INT on the final drive of that AFCCG against the Colts.
3 for 6, 20 yards, INT in the 4th quarter of the AFCCG agains the Ravens.
Now look at Eli Manning’s stats on the final 2 drives of his SB appearances.
10 for 15, 151 yards, 2 TD’s
Maybe clutch is a made up term (isn’t every word?) – but it’s goal is to quantify the difference between good and bad performances in the most critical situations. Hence why Brady hasn’t been clutch and Eli Manning has.
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Hm... So, both players have performed well, and performed poorly.
You forget that Manning didn’t win a playoff game between those two SBs. And you don’t include Brady’s good games either.
Both players have performed well in some cases, and poorly in others.
by James Broschat on Feb 8, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
Yep...
And ask 1,000,000 fans, 1,000 media members, and 100 coaches – and they’ll tell you that they’d all rather the guy that performed well in the big games, at the biggest times – Championship games and Superbowls.
Honestly, I’m not saying Eli Manning has been clutch his whole career – far from it. But he’s been so instrumental in the Giants’ SB runs, and idiots like you fail to realize that.
Also, Brady’s good games have been few and far between. He played poorly in the SB, absolutely awful in the AFCCG. He played lights out against the lowly Broncos. In 2010, he played awful against the Jets. In 2009, he played absolutely awful against the Ravens. In the 2007 SB, he played well below standards in the SB. In that AFCCG, he played HORRENDOUS against the Chargers. In the first round of those playoffs, he played lights out. In the 2006 AFCCG, Brady played fairly poorly. In the game before that, he played horrible against the Chargers.
Seriously – in Brady’s last 10 playoff games, he’s had 8 poor performances. I’d argue 4 or 5 AWFUL performances, and 2-3 bad, below-standard games. And 2 lights-out games. Those 2 games happened to be against the Broncos (2011) and Jaguars (2007) – both coming in the 1st game of the post-season for the Patriots.
Seriously, I’m getting tired of proving to you how poorly Brady has played in big games, and how well Eli manning has played in big games. Call it whatever the fuck you want. Most people call it the difference between choking and being clutch.
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Where did I say that Eli wasn't instrumental in their wins?
I just said he’s played poorly as well.
As for Brady, he’s never been great in the playoffs. He’s only had 7 games (out of 22) over 100 rating. He had 3 before 2005, one in 2005, and 3 since. He’s never been great in the playoffs. He was vastly overrated.
And, Eli’s playoff stats have been pretty similar. He had a great post season last year, was awful in 2005, 2006, and 2008, and was decent/good in 2007. In 2009-2010 he didn’t even get his team to the playoffs. Overall they have very similar playoff stats.
Both quarterbacks are very good.
by James Broschat on Feb 9, 2012 2:06 AM EST up reply actions
Part of the problem is the media.....
The media "perception’ is that Brady is a better “clutch” QB than Peyton, which I think is crap. It was easy for the Patriots to beat the brains out of the Colts earlier last decade; the Pats were a COMPLETE team with an incredible defense.
Manning never had that, and it became somewhat reversed. Brady won 3 rings but was never the focal point of his offense — once the Pats centered around him, and NOT their defense, its amazing how mortal he has become.
Manning’s last game against the Jets he drives them down the field for what should have been a game-winning FG. He did his job, but Special Teams and a crappy defense (not to mention poor coaching decisions) allowed the Jets to drive right down the field and knock him out of the playoffs. The media went after Manning, but he did his job.
In this case, the last 2 Super Bowls and the AFC Title Game, Brady DID NOT come through in the clutch.
I saw one commentator say that Brady was John Elway in reverse; he started off invincible but now can’t seem to win “the big one”
Why are Colts fans so defensive?
I’m just wondering, why do you guys care so much about proving Manning is the best ever and if anyone suggests otherwise they are wrong? Its a complete matter of opinion, if you believe Manning is the best, then you have the evidence to back it up and so be it, but Pats fans have every right to believe they have the best quarterback, just like Saints fans do, just like Packers fans do as well, and just like Giants fans do as well. Just because some media pundits expresss their opinion on a player doesn’t mean you need to agree with it.
We are defensive because the vast majority of people pick Brady over Manning
Believe in Blue.
Marshall Manning, Colts QB, 2032-
by stonewall12345678 on Feb 7, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
I can't speak for everyone...
And I don’t think I’d consider Manning the G.O.A.T. (top5 for sure), but I’ve always hated the Brady vs. Manning debate. I live in New England, and most of my friends are Patriots fans.
Their argument obviously centered around the idea that Brady had 3 rings, and Manning had 1. Yet they failed to mention that Brady seemed to get all the breaks/support from his team – Vinatieri’s countless kicks, the Tuck Rule, Belichick shutting down the Greatest Show on Turf…while Manning got hosed – Caldwell’s T.O./Jets kick return…Vanderjagt’s shank, Big Ben tackles our CB (I forget who), etc. etc. You see, Brady’s horrible performance in the 2011 AFCCG against the Ravens will only be remembered as another “WIN” on Brady’s playoff resume; yet Manning’s solid, clutch performance in the 2010 AFCWCG against the Jets will be remembered as another “choke job”, “one and done” playoff disappointments on Manning’s playoff resume. Is that fair? Nah.
They also fail to qualify that the Patriots won their SB’s with Brady being nothing more than a key ingredient (not even the biggest ingredient). Manning has been the entire dish in Indianapolis for most of his career, and 2011 proved it more than any other season. Now look at the Patriots (ever since 2005) – they’ve shifted away from being defensive-minded, and built their team AROUND Brady. Brady became the star in New England around the mid-2000’s – the same star that Manning had been his entire career for the Colts – and what do the Patriots/Tom Brady have to show for it? 0 SB rings, 2 SB losses, and a handful of playoff disappointments. Sound familiar? It’s the same knock that Brady/Patriot fans used to bash Manning and the Colts. I’m just glad that they’re finally getting a taste of their own medicine.
Oh, and they haven’t won shit since they got caught cheating. Bill Belichick is an asshole. Everybody remembers Brady’s 50 TD’s even though it wasn’t more impressive than Manning’s 49 (he sat out 1 1/2 games). Brady comes across as a big f@g (for lack of a better term). And Patriots fans, at least the ones I’ve been exposed to, are annoying as hell.
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by kmbryant09 on Feb 7, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 12 recs
Well said.
"The trouble with referees is that they know the rules, but they don't know the game" -Bill Shankly
They didn't win during their time cheating, either, so that really doesn't factor in.
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by New Century Silver on Feb 14, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
Stats don't prove squat.
Labeling QB’s clutch and choker based off stats only is asinine. Brady had dropped passes all night on Sunday. Eli threw two STUPID passes on the final drive in SB 42. They just weren’t picked off. What if Porter dropped the pick 6? Would that make PM suddenly cluctch?! What if Gronk isn’t hurt and can catch the rebounded hail mary? Does a lucky hailmary all of a sudden make a QB clutch? Do you see how insane it is to lay all of this on the stat line?? Brady is fantastic. But not very lucky. His career has shown that TEAMS win SB and QB’s do not. Eli is fantastic and has simply been fortunate.
by isaac88 on Feb 7, 2012 12:11 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
What is up with the dropped passes excuse?
Brady didn’t have “dropped passes all night”. I haven’t re-watched the game yet, and consumed quite a few beverages on Sunday night, but where were all the “drops”???
Hernandez flat out dropped a 10 yard pass on the final possession, no doubt about it.
Welker’s play was a tough one. if you view the play from behind the QB, you’ll see just how poorly that pass really was. It was about 3 yards behind Welker, and 2 or 3 yards further to the outside than it should have been. Not to mention Brady put way too much air under the ball. Could Welker have made the catch? Absolutely, but it would’ve been a tremendous play.
2 passes to Branch that people think were drops: 1 came on a 20 yard pass across the middle of the field – that pass was 5 yards behind Branch. Branch, running at full speed, was about to cross the MLB and enter a wide-open gap, yet he had to slow down to a complete stop to adjust to Brady’s throw. That difference allowed the MLB to arrive simultaneously with the ball, and breakup the play. The 2nd pass was deflected by a Giants player JUST before it got to Branch. Absolutely not a drop.
I count 1, maybe 1.5 (Welker’s part) drops on the night, out of 41 pass attempts. Drops are a part of the game – but they in no way decided the outcome of this SuperBowl.
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Fair enough, good call.
My point was that while Brady wasn’t stellar on Sunday he could have just as easily been labled some kind of “god” had the hail mary been caught. OR if Welker hauls that slightly overthrown pass in. And that’s exactly what would have happend. Manning supporters (which none are more than I) can’t blast Brady as a choker when all that’s happening to him is what has happened to our guy for most of his career.
If I remember right the one to Branch was tipped
or at least it looked like it.
People can bitch about drops, but for some reason no one is mentioning Brady’s horrendous decision making for the safety and interception. Those were key, preventable plays that Brady choked on. Those plays are not at all like Porter’s pick 6 in the SB which was a timing play where Porter simply guessed right. Brady had all day to make those decisions and he blew it…big time.
"The trouble with referees is that they know the rules, but they don't know the game" -Bill Shankly
What were the two bad passes Eli threw?
He threw an absolutely perfect pass to Manningham for 38 to start the drive. He held the safety by looking to the right, then turned and put the ball on the money. Maybe you are talking about another pass. I don’t remember too many bad plays on that final drive. I definitely don’t remember a pass that the defense had an actual chance to pick.
by PeytonTheManning on Feb 7, 2012 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
I was speaking of SB 42.
You are right. Eli was money last Sunday. On the final drive in 42 however, he had the throw to Samuel and the helmet catch throw was a horrible decision.
Got ya
The Samuel play should have ended that game. That one was shocking, since he has good hands for a DB. I’m not shocked with most DBs dropping the ball, since that’s usually why they aren’t WRs.
by PeytonTheManning on Feb 8, 2012 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
The problem with this reasoning is that it’s the same rationale people use to defend Peyton as the GOAT. If Brady is a choker then so is Peyton. Cant have it both ways. It’s a team sport and wins and losses cannot be solely attributed to te play of one person. I would agree with the notion that Brady has not been playing well in the postseason lately but like Peyton, he is now carrying a terrible defense and lots of undrafted “gems”, similar to what Polians gave Manning. Regarding Eli as being “clutch”, I would agree but remind people that two amazing, historically great catches helped the Giants win. A QB can’t do everything.
by Odin1980 on Feb 7, 2012 12:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
How did this become Peyton vs. Brady?
I’ve watched the thread develop. I just don’t understand why this can’t stay a rant about Brady being overrated thanks to luck early in his career. He got lucky to find his way on a team with a genius coach (hurts to say it, but he’s an amazing tactician even if he does cheat on occasion), very good and mature defense, clutch kicker, and solid dump off guys like Faulk.
This whole thread should just be about our disdain towards Brady. You can dislike and tear down a player without the argument being that our guy is better. I totally agree with everyone that Brady was an integral cog in the 3 wins. He wasn’t the main piece. He was nothing more than an accurate short passer. As the team transitioned to his team in ‘05-’06, they became much more beatable.
We can look at “what ifs” all we want. What if Manning was drafted onto a Colts team with a top 10 defense with a defensive genius as a coach? What if the tuck rule was called as the fumble that everyone on and off the field saw it as? What if Vinatieri wasn’t born with a complete lack of an ability to acknowledge pressure? What if Colts DBs practiced for 10 minutes on how to not get tackled by a QB? What if Reggie Wayne boxed out DBs instead of cutting off his route?
None of these matter. They are fun to imagine. They just don’t matter. The stats say Brady is a “reverse Elway” as someone else put it. Funny thing is that you can also compare their teams the same way. The Pats had a great defense early in his career. Not so much since he has started to look average in the playoffs. Elway couldn’t win the big one with his average defenses and no running game. They fixed that, and he finished his career with 2 titles. There seems to be a lesson there that Polian and Irsay never learned.
by PeytonTheManning on Feb 7, 2012 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
My post was meant to criticize the criteria used to term someone a "choker."
The same Pats fan we all hate will come here and tell us that Brady is the GOAT and Peyton is a choker because of the number of rings. Now they’re finding out that its very difficult to win big games with a uni-dimensional team. But those same people who stick up for Peyton are using the same rationale to bash Brady. Brady got the ball with 57 sec left and I think its pretty unreasonable for any QB to expect them to convert and win. Sure it can happen but I think its a reach. Brady is in decline, no doubt about that, but I just dont think he is a “choker”.
brady got the ball with 57 sec left
because they purposely gave up the TD instead of plating D because they expected Brady to win the game so you cant use that as an excuse
LOL. Excuse for what?
They scored so they’d have a shot at winning. Would you call him a choker if he had 20 seconds to drive the length of the field? What about 10 seconds?
If they're using the final drive as a metric then I would say that its not a fair assessment.
But I would agree he played terribly through the playoffs.
Eli not clutch
Have u watched any of his football games this year? Hell even highlights?
by Marvelous Marvin on Feb 7, 2012 12:24 PM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I agree with you. He's been stellar BUT...
As I said in my previous post, it takes luck as well. Eli threw two gimme picks to the 49ers in the NFCCG. If they catch them it’s a whole different story isn’t it? But what did Eli do to make them drop it? Nothing. He got lucky. Not clutchy, but lucky. PM, Brady and Eli all have made incredible plays in the clutch through out their careers. But not one of them did it all on their own and all three have “choked” as well. These two terms are over used.
Colts fans are something else. Don’t berate people for using the term choker and then use it yourselves to try and demean another player’s career. It’s called hypocrisy. What the fuck is wrong with you people?
by KingRichard on Feb 7, 2012 1:08 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
No, it's not
People, especially Pats fans, seem to live to blast Peyton for his playoff shortcomings and rub in how great Tom Brady is/was. People shouldn’t talk shit if they can’t handle getting shit back.
That’s not the point silly. The point is, you know for a fact Peyton isn’t a choker. Everyone in the world knows Brady isn’t a choker. You hate when people call Peyton a choker because it’s not true. So why would you think it’s cool to call Brady a choker when you know it’s not true and you clearly dislike it when someone else does it? It’s called hypocrisy like I said. It has nothing to do with other fanbases being stupid themselves. Don’t stoop to the levels of idiocy, be above it.
by KingRichard on Feb 7, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You're right, but...
I don’t wanna take the high road anymore. It’s getting too difficult. Stooping is a lot easier than standing tall. Sometimes it seems like that’s the only way most people can talk to each other anymore – by insulting, calling out, showing up, or whatever…
Also
Fans of all teams are victims of the moment. Brady hasn’t been a clutch playoff performer for quite some time. The last time we saw him he was taking a sack and throwing a hail mary. Then, he walked off the field while his wife yelled at fans. Unfortunately, he has to earn any clutch accolades back. He hasn’t been that in quite some time.
Fans are a fickle bunch. Hell, look through any other thread on this site. Half of the fans on here sound like they would be fine seeing Peyton fall off a cliff, since it would resolve his contract situation. They were happy he signed it last year. It’s all what have you done for me lately, and who do we have available to do it better? He sat out a year, and Luck is available. Sucks for him. Great news for Miami.
by PeytonTheManning on Feb 7, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
Pat Fans Can't Take The Heat
Exactly, their “golden boy” hasn’t come through in the clutch, and the media gives him a pass.
The front splash page of CNNSI was how Brady’s recent Super Bowl performance actually HELPED his legacy. GIVE ME A BREAK — the media adoration of all things Brady is absurd.
Peyton has his famous late-game INT against the Saints and what do we get? Stupid columnists who wonder whether Manning can “win big games”. Really? A QB who is a previous Super Bowl MVP and led his team back from the largest deficit in AFC Title Game History against the Patriots really needs to answer that question?
Brady is now experiencing what Peyton Manning has almost his entire career — how hard it is to win a Super Bowl when the entire team is on your shoulders. At least Manning did it ONCE — Brady never has done it.
Amazing how mortal Brady is when he has a defense as bad as Peyton has had the majority of his career
by rmexico6000 on Feb 7, 2012 3:13 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Difference
Brady’s not 9-10 in the playoffs. If he was, asking whether he can win the big game or not would be more understandable. Now, football is a team sport so that has nothing to do with anything, but I don’t think you can expect the media to look at them equally.
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by New Century Silver on Feb 14, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
ST's and Coaching
Manning has never had good special teams and questionable coaching. I think we can all agree Belicheck is one of the best coaches in the league and he has always emphasized special teams. Manning has the worst average starting fielding position for all QB’s resulting from substandard “bend but don’t break defenses” and poor ST’s.
by pwbbny on Feb 7, 2012 3:58 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
cheaterz
to me, cheating is the entire issue, not chocking. in a competitive league, they’ve been a great team for a long time, but that “little margin” they used to have disappeared once the cheating was discovered and (hopefully) eliminated. i give the boston patriots credit for continuity and being a strong organization though.
I'm glad to see Brady taken down a notch, but this article is stupid
Honestly? You’re gonna judge Brady specifically on three possessions where he had to drive the length of the field to score a TD, and only had 60 seconds to do it? Against quality opponents with an excellent pass rush, who knows you’re going to throw and throw mid-long?
Yes, he failed. Put every QB in the NFL in that situation and they’ll fail 9 times out of 10. Including Peyton.
There are plenty of legit criticisms to bring Giselle’s golden boy back down to earth. You made a great one when you said “Since the Pats have shifted from a ‘Defense First’ philosophy to a ‘Tom Brady First’ philosophy, Brady has won ZERO rings.” But coming up with ridiculous arguments like “ZOMG dude can’t score at will HE SUCKS!!!!” doesn’t help.
I know it's a small sample size, but...
Brady and the Pats won 3 Super Bowls by three points each during their cheating era.
They lost two Super Bowls by four points each after the cheating was exposed.
Cheating appears to be worth one bonus touchdown for the Patriots.
Super Bowl-wise, cheating might be the only thing that kept the Patriots from being the Buffalo Bills.
Interesting note about the Patriots/Brady
On separate occasions, I heard some alarming stats:
-Wes Welker lead the NFL in yards after catch.
-Rob Gronkowski broke the most tackles in the NFL for a WR or TE.
-I believe Aaron Hernandez was in the top5 of this list.
All of those Patriots fans need to recognize that Brady only does so much in that offense. It’s a system that creates space for small, quick guys to take advantage of (Welker, Woodhead, Branch, Hernandez). Brady really does a great job of throwing a bunch of 5 and 10 yard passes. But his teammates are the ones turning those short gains into 10-20 yard completions. It’d be interesting to see Brady’s average yards in the air per completion.
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The biggest indictment of Brady is his lack of a deep throw.
He could afford to under throw those deep throws when Moss was going up to get them.
by James Broschat on Feb 16, 2012 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
'A great job of throwing a bunch of 5-10 yard passes?' That's it?
The ‘system’ you’re talking about is really based on whatever personnel the team has in any given season. Over 10 seasons, Brady has had many different styles of receivers to get the ball to, and manages to figure out how to adjust his game to the receivers he has, every year.
Just because Wes Welker is among the best in the league at yards after the catch, and Aaron Hernandez makes first defenders miss, that doesn’t correlate to Brady only being able throw the ball 5-10 yards. A simple look at the Patriots roster for 2010-2011 shows the offense only employs slot receivers and tight ends. Chad Ochocinco was brought in to be a vertical receiver, but he couldn’t be relied on because never got the offense. We all saw what happens when he tries to throw deep to guys like Matthew Slater, Julian Edelman or even deep to Welker – they’re all talented players, but they’re not good at catching the deep ball.
Tom Brady did just fine throwing deep to Moss. When he’s had vertical receivers over the years he has shown he can get them the ball too – Troy Brown, David Givens, Deion Branch, David Patten, Jabar Gaffney, Dante Stallworth, and even Reche Caldwell.
Keep the faith!
In all honesty - Brady never threw a great deep ball
Look at a lot of the tape – Moss faught off defenders to come down with deep balls. But that’s a whole different argument.
Brady has one of the easier jobs in the league when it comes to QB’s. The degree of difficulty in his throws is very minimal. Yet he still puts up monster numbers. Why? Because Welker leads the league in YAC and Hernandez and Gronkowski make people miss. Beyond “throwing his receivers into space” Brady doesn’t have anything to do with these stats.
It’s just frustrating to see Brady go 5-5 on a possession for 80 yards and a TD, when he threw 2 WR screens, a checkdown to Welker, and 2 quick outs to Hernandez. Unfortunately, Brady gets all the credit for that, when in reality he did what most NFL QB’s can do with ease – deliver a few accurate short passes.
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You've got your blinders on and that's fine
but it doesn’t make what you say correct. It’s especially odd because you give all the credit to Peyton – and none to Harrison or Wayne. That would be inaccurate. Plus, when you only look at Moss, Brady only had him as a receiver for two years out of his career. Of course Moss fought off defenders – he was double teamed most of the time and even triple teamed. But Brady still threw it where he could catch it. It wasn’t all Moss, if that’s what you’re implying, just as it wasn’t all Harrison and Wayne. Surely you see that.
“In all honesty” how many Patriots games have you watched – or are you just looking at the last few years since they picked up Wes Welker – or the last couple with Gronkowski and Hernandez.? Hernandez didn’t even play that much or that well as a rookie either because of injury and rookie-ness, so your data base with him is mostly 2011. And in 2011, what receiver on the Patriots was a vertical threat?
If you’re interested in the truth, and not just validating your perception, look at who Brady was throwing to over the years, and whether he got them the ball. That tells the real story.
Keep the faith!
I live in New England - I watch them nearly as much as the Colts
And Tom Brady is a phenomenal QB. He’s one of the best in the game today, and has put up better stats than just about any QB over the past 5 years.
Brady is extremely accurate – him and Troy Aikman are the 2 most accurate QB’s I’ve ever watched in length. He also makes extremely quick decisions after the snap.
HOWEVER. The Patriots offense is a dink-and-dunk offense. There’s no way around it. Blame it on the coaching. Blame it on the personnel. Blame it on Brady. I don’t care. Brady rarely has to “thread the needle” on a medium-to-long pass. Just like Moss made Brady look good on the deep ball – seriously “Brady put the ball where Moss could catch it with 2 or 3 defenders around him” – 1/2 of those passes were 10 yards underthrown….Welker, Gronk, and Hernandez make Brady look great conducted a spread offense that relies on short, precision passes.
Don’t get me wrong – Brady runs this system extremely well. It just so happens to be an extremely QB-friendly system, at least at padding the stats. When teams limit “missed tackles” and “yards after the catch” from the Patriots’ receivers, Brady struggles mightily (see nearly every post-season game in the past 5 years).
I’ve re-watched the SB 3 or 4 times, paying attention to every Brady attempt. I believe he threw the ball 20+ yards downfield 5 times – the Hail Mary, the horrible INT, a nice completion to 85, and 2 bad passes to D. Branch that got knocked away by the defense. During the Patriots 2 great drives (straddling Halftime), Brady completed 13 straight passes, I believe. Exactly 1 of them required a precise pass.
So like I said, Brady does a great job creating and finding mismatches. He makes great reads, and is very good decision maker. But from a “pure passer” point of view, no QB around the league has it as easy as Brady. Just looking at his “throws” – Brady should have a type of season around 3,800-4,200 yards and 30 TD’s. Yet because of the YAC and broken tackles from Welker/Gronk/Hernandez, Brady will be remembered for putting up an historical season.
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He makes it look easy
and I don’t have to “blame” anyone for anything. It works. Brady works. The Patriots have a consistently successful team.
And your “pure passer” thing is perception. It’s made up to fit what you want to say. And it’s okay for you, as long as you realize that this is your perception of how you decide to interpret Brady’s career, and also realize that the box you’ve placed him in isn’t reflective of how his career will be evaluated when it’s all over.
Keep the faith!
It does work...
But I watch other elite QB’s like Manning, Rodgers, and Brees – and they all stretch the field.
They make difficult throws. They fit rockets into tight windows. It’s not a bunch of dinking and dunking.
Pure passing isn’t perception. Stats are perception. If QB A throws a 1 yard pass and the WR makes 8 people miss on his way to a 99-yard TD, that QB’s stats are 1 for 1, 99 yards and a TD. Meanwhile, QB B could throw a 35-yard-pass on a rope in between 2 defenders, only to have his WR drop the ball. That QB’s stats would be 0-1.
Brady is a great QB, and had a great season. But people like to think that Brady makes everything work. What works is the system, Brady just drives it. Players like Welker/Gronk/Hernandez are nearly as valuable as Brady is. If you took away Welker’s ability to get open and pick up yards after the catch, and take away all the broken tackles by Gronk and Hernandez, and everybody would be stating how Brady’s career is in decline after a 1-and-done playoff loss and a 4,000 yard, 28 TD season. I know it sounds crazy, and Patriots fans will pull out “perception”, “hate”, “blinders” to excuse my thoughts. But seriously, watch the Patriots, then watch the Packers, or the Colts, or the Saints, or the Lions. Those QB’s make more throws than Brady is ever asked to. When Brady tried to make those throws in the SB, he failed miserably.
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by kmbryant09 on Feb 16, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
For every rocket Rodgers fits into a tight window, Brady fits ten
seriously, Rodgers’ and Brees throws are a billion times easier then Brady’s Rodgers might have the best set of receivers to ever play together on 1 team – 5 average or better options. Right now Brady has at most three. If you wanna talk Brady vs Manning go ahead, but bringing Rodgers into it is just gunna kill your argument.
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by New Century Silver on Feb 16, 2012 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not talking about weapons
I’m talking about difficulty of throws.
For every 100 yards a team achieves in the passing game, you can hypothetically assign those yards to either the QB or WR. For instance, a ball that travels 25 yards into the endzone and a routine catch is made on a well-thrown ball would merit 25 yards to the QB. If a WR takes a screen pass for 25 yards, the WR would likely get 20-25 accredited yards with the QB getting very little.
I know this is all hypothetical, and you’ll try and dismiss it, but I’m willing to bet that Brady ranks WELL below most other elite QB’s. Rodgers throws one of the best deep balls in the league. He throws the best “back shoulder” throw, which is approximately 25 yards down the field. Drew Brees throws a tremendous deep ball despite not possessing a very strong arm. He routinely fits his passes into very tight windows, and always stretches the field.
Can you really say the same about Brady? Certainly not as much. He’s been a dink-and-dunk passer his entire career, with the exception of when he threw to Randy Moss. He’s perhaps the greatest dink-and-dunker in the history of the NFL, but his stats have been inflated recently because of Welker’s ability to find YAC and Gronk’s and Hernandez’ broken tackles. Don’t get me wrong, Brady had a great year. But not a 5,200 yard 40+ TD season.
Also – the Patriots have “AT MOST 3”?!?!?!?! What the hell are you smoking? They have the best TE in the NFL, and another top5 TE in the NFL. Both of which are hybrid-type players who create mismatches against any type of defense. Wes Welker is the best slot WR in the league, and a top10 overall WR in the league. Deion Branch certainly isn’t a deep-threat, but he’s certainly passable as a starting WR. I know Reggie Wayne carries the famous name, but these 2 players were very similar this year and last. Once Reggie Wayne lost his elite speed, he became nothing but a very good route runner, and a smart WR – which Branch fits to a T. Also, the Patriots’ O-Line protects Brady extremely well, and affords him with an above-average running game.
I really don’t feel bad for Brady’s situation. C’mon now.
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You basically agreed with me...
that we had at most 3 average or better receivers. Branch may have been average at one point, but isn’t now.
You’re whole argument is based off the fact that because Brady doesn’t throw deep balls, he can’t.
You give Brady Rodgers’ receivers and he’ll throw 50+ TDs multiple times in his career. You give Rodgers Brady’s receivers and he’s another Eli Manning, and I don’t mean that as a compliment. Also, keep in mind Rodgers has had the same receivers his entire career – Brady has had to work with at least three entirely different groups.
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by New Century Silver on Feb 16, 2012 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
This
This is laughable.
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Aside from his O-line, which was better last year,
Rodgers has always had everything go easy: same receivers, receivers who may be the best group in history, chance to learn under a HOFer, most of his career in the QB-friendly league of today, and until last year decent defense. Brady on the other hand played about half his career in a less QB-friendly league, learned under an average QB, and has had to work with at least three sets of receivers, with none of them being an “elite bunch” all at once. The Pat’s defense might have been better then the Packers early in the decade, but that doesn’t help a QB put up big numbers.
Look at what Flynn did with those receivers against a good Lions defense – is he “elite” too?
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by New Century Silver on Feb 17, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously?
You lose all credibility when you don’t classify Brady’s targets as elite this season. Or last season. Or in 2007 and 2009.
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2007
Moss and maybe Welker were elite. Not the entire group.
2009 was pretty much the same
This year Welker, Gronk, and maybe Hernando are elite. 1 more good receiver and they’re elite, but as a group they aren’t right now.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
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by New Century Silver on Feb 17, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
You're making assumptions that aren't based in reality
and only considering the last two years with his two TEs. You are incorrectly concluding that if Brady didn’t have Welker, Hernandez and Gronk to throw to then he couldn’t make accurate throws.
Of course, you understand that if those three players weren’t on the team, there would be other receivers or TEs for him to throw to, right? And since we don’t know which players they would be… then… logically you can’t make any assumptions about how Brady would throw to them. It’s pointless to even follow that line of reasoning.
Brady has thrown to many different receivers and tight ends with varying degrees of talent over his 10 year career, and the only Hall-of-Famer of the bunch was Randy Moss. One reason it has all worked is Brady’s ability to put the ball where it needs to be. Of course Brady “drives the system”. I don’t get it. Why wouldn’t a team build it’s offensive system around it’s franchise QB?
As far as the two Super Bowl losses go, they were both to the Giants – a team that matches up very well with the Patriots. Just as it’s well documented how the Chargers have had the Colts’ number over the years, it seems that way with Pats-NYG too.
Eli Manning’s wide recievers Armani Toomer and Plaxcico Burress recently said in an interview that back in 2007 they never got any yards after the catch because when Eli threw a deep ball they had to make such athletic catches that all they could do afterward was fall to the ground. Eli wasn’t yet an accurate thrower in ’07 but to you he would be considered a “pure passer” because it was a longer catch. Why is that considered better when it takes even less ability?
Keep the faith!
Rogers, Brees and and Manning all have vertical threat wide receivers,
The Patriots do not.
If Rogers, Brees and Manning only had Welker, Gronkowski and Hernandez to throw to – with the occasional pitch to Matthew Slater or Julian Edelman, would you come to the same conclusion about them?
Keep the faith!
But Brady still threw it where he could catch it.
in the air?
Moss was labeled as “The Freak” for a reason. He made Daunte Culpepper look like a HoF candidate. I mean, Culpepper, as in Daunte Culpepper threw almost 40 TD passes with Moss.
You know, Mr. Fumble or Mr. Awful as they called him. Moss is simply one of hte best WR’s to ever play the game. I’d go Rice then Moss. Moss is simply “The Freak”
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT! - Venkman
by J2 on Feb 16, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
FWIW: In the 5 seasons that Culpepper had Moss he threw 129 TDs for almost 26 TDs a season. That’s Daunte Culpepper folks.
In the 5 seasons without Moss Culpepper threw 20 TDs for an average of 4 TDs a season – the real Daunte Culpepper.
All any QB had to do with Moss was to throw it in the air around him. When he was in Oakland Walter and Collins were literally THAT bad of QBs. They coudln’t even get Randy Moss the ball – which is pathetic.
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT! - Venkman
by J2 on Feb 16, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
He was awesome, no question
I don’t know why you’re bringing up Moss’s abilities in this discussion. He was a phenom, and both Moss and Brady had career years statistically in ’07.
Keep the faith!
i brought it up to show that as long as your QB can throw the ball further than 25 yards down the field Randy Moss will make them look like all stars.
Plus I like talking about him because he’s a great football player – any problems with that?
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT! - Venkman
by J2 on Feb 16, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
I do too
I remember listening to Bob Lamey calling the 2007 Pats-Colts game and we thought it was hysterical the way his voice would flatline whenever the Patriots scored (Gotta love the local announcers).
The only time a Patriots’ play got him genuinely excited was when Randy Moss made that cool one-handed grab in the middle of the field. Certain players transcend whatever team they play for and you just have to admire their play for the unique talent that it is.
Keep the faith!
Yea, like he did for the Raiders, Titans, and Vikings the 2nd time, right?
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Feb 16, 2012 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
QB can throw the ball further than 25 yards down the field
Did you skip that part?
Andrew Walter has a career YPA of 5.8
Kerry Collins has a career YPA of 6.5
Then he went to play with 3 different teams because NE made a smart decision by getting what they gave up for him while also being past his prime and on the downside of his amazing career.
I bet if you paired him with Jacarcus Russell he’d catch 15 TDs when he wasn’t 35 and has lost a step. I don’t understand your point at all – care to elaborate?
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT! - Venkman
by J2 on Feb 17, 2012 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
Doubt it
about the 15 TDs.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Feb 17, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
I would expect no different answer
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT! - Venkman
by J2 on Feb 18, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
If Brady is a choker
What does that make Manning? You don’t win three Super Bowls by being a “choker”.
Simple
Up until 2004, Brady was clutch in the playoffs, and got help from his team. Since 2004, Brady has choked in the playoffs repeatedly.
Up until ~2003 (and then 2 games against NE and the start of our ‘06 SB run), Manning consistently choked in the playoffs. He sucked. But since then, he’s been about as good as anybody. Ironically, the ONLY time he got real support from the rest of the team, the Colts won the SB in 2006.
Brady’s legacy won’t be as a choker, and it shouldn’t be. Like you said, how can a choker have 3 SB rings. But as clutch as he was, and as good as his team was, Brady has consistently underachieved in the playoffs since those 3 SB runs. He’s mixed in a phenomenal game every once in awhile. But he’s had a handful of 1-and-done’s (with bad performances), and 2 SB losses as the favorite (2 TD favorite in one of them) with below average performances.
www.Coltsider.com
check out the new Colts blog!
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